Clapping for the nhs an empty gesture?

[DK2019]

I mean the people who work for the nhs(I have like 7 family members who work for the nhs at various levels) are putting their lives on line battling this pandemic and people are doing this feel good gesture, while ignoring the fact doctors have been treated awfully since the brexit talks. At the last election suddenly soo many doctors became political and told people to vote labour. Soo many bame doctors have left after receiving racial abuse, european doctors have gone after having their citizenship brought into question and soo many home grown doctors have moved due to the low pay and high hours etc. The nhs was at a breaking point before the cirisis and was rated the best in the world before the tories came into power. We can't praise the nhs doctors when we need them and ignore them when we individually don't. This sentiment applies to soo much of what holds our society together but we obviously have a pandemic atm.

I think my main point is we need to forever remember what the tories have done and treat the people who are saving lives with dignity and listen to what they say even when there isn't some pandemic that puts us all at risk.

[kalniel]

I think my main point is we need to forever remember what the tories have done.

What have the tories done? My understanding is the NHS is in an even worse situation in Wales, which Labour control the purse strings for.

Bad as they are, I think it's all to easy for any of us to shift the blame onto some nebulous collection of suits who we're unlikely to have got to know personally, rather than actually think about our own choices - whether at the ballet box or otherwise.

[IAmATeaf]

I don’t mind the praising and clapping but this is in effect distracting from the main current issues, namely poor organisation of testing for the vital staff and PPE kit.

My wife’s friends daughter is a newly trained doctor, been working for just over a year now and if you talk to her the stories from her are just shocking. No matter what the voice boxes say on the TV the government has failed to effectively mobilise, get a grip on the situation and react.

The public should not only clapping for the NHS but there deserves another event to show the government that they need to do more.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The NHS had a 2016 pandemic exercise which the government classified the results of - but leaks said we needed more PPE and ventilators. We had 4 to 8 weeks more time to implement emergency purchasing measures but wasted it - more and more companies are saying they offered priority for the UK for ventilators,etc but the government ignored them. Two local distributors told the government they could supply 25000 ventilators over 5 weeks(their entire worldwide stock),but didn't get any interest,so sold them to others. Now the government is "shocked" and will investigate how this "happened".

Companies involved with making new ventilators over here have said there was confusion over what the government actually was telling them. On the news they keep giving timetables,which appear to be quite optimistic(as opposed to the industry they are talking off who are more honest). Also agree with what IAmATeaf says also from what I heard from people working in the NHS,and it was bad enough 10 to 15 years ago,and its worse now.

PS:

In fact the biggest failing with the current lot,is their overzealous spam filters on their governmental e-mails. It seems predisposed to block e-mails with anything to do with medical equipment. Or maybe the dog ate it?

Perhaps for the national interest they need to hire better IT people....and nicer dogs.

[Phage]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18...se-nhs-nurses/

[Spreadie]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18...se-nhs-nurses/

I have no love for team bojo, but that was two years ago, under Teresa May.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I have no love for team bojo, but that was two years ago, under Teresa May.

Article says most of the MPs who voted for it though,are still in the current government,no doubt many with senior roles.

Edit!!

That includes BoJo and Rishi Sunak who voted against the pay rise. Now everyone is saying how brave the NHS workers are,even as MPs get a 3.1% pay rise this year.

[[GSV]Trig]

We won't know if its an empty gesture until after this has all blown over, and then see what the government do, probably nothing, in which case, then what does it matter if the people care and clap, or make masks, or give them tablets, webcams and the likes..

The government, IMHO will do nothing, there will be empty thanks, but over all nothing will change.

[IAmATeaf]

The other problem with giving the clap is that it’s a major distraction for the news, last night and this morning the news was just full of the clap.

The news coverage needs to repeat and keep repeating the lack of PPE and lack of testing for key workers, hopefully somebody from within the government might accidentally catch a glimpse.

[DK2019]

What have the tories done? My understanding is the NHS is in an even worse situation in Wales, which Labour control the purse strings for.

Bad as they are, I think it's all to easy for any of us to shift the blame onto some nebulous collection of suits who we're unlikely to have got to know personally, rather than actually think about our own choices - whether at the ballet box or otherwise.

Wales are doing far more and are better off than england

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irus-onslaught

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...-food-18034184

The tories have cut the nhs budget dry to the bone for a decade. They've had scandals involving fit for work and high excess deaths before the corona crisis. During the corona crisis they bungled a ton of things already. They acted far too slow despite knowing about it for a month or so. They not responded to eu emails about ventilators etc. They have lied about the reasons for not testing stating the uk doesn't have enough reagents but the industry called them out. They haven't acquired enough ventilators and instead of going for companies that make them and can produce many of them their consortium are producing low volumes(only 30 produced by the consortium) and may not be up to spec.

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/s...69854108016652



As cat the fifth has pointed out there was operation cygnus which showed the faults in our response to a potential influenza outbreak and the report was buried.

[Ttaskmaster]

Whichever government you vote in will stuff something up. If it were Labour in power right now, you'd all have no water with which to wash your hands and you'd be spitting blood at them instead...

But since I doubt the government even read forums like this, go ahead and rant.

[g8ina]

OK thats enough, lets keep our politics to ourselves please.

I dont want to have to close another thread

[Spud1]

<snip>
The tories have cut the nhs budget dry to the bone for a decade.

This may be partially true (i'd actually argue that *all* governments have kept funding to a minimum, whether red/blue or hybrid), but its also irrelevant. If they money had been available it would not have been put into ventilators, intensive care beds and similar - there are funding holes all over the NHS and naturally the money goes to where it's needed at that particular time.

Had we put all the cash (that we didn't have, and still don't) into ventilators straight after the Cygnus trial there would have been an outcry about "why wasn't it spent on <insert_clinical_area_here>".

No matter who was in power they would have been in trouble and have "done the wrong thing".

The reality is we're in a horrible situation and have an great team working in the NHS doing all they can to get through it - bitching and moaning about underfunding helps no one. I think it was particularly despicable of Jeremy Corbyn recently giving an interview where he did exactly that and started with the "if only we'd been in power we'd have funded blah blah" - trying to turn a global disaster into a political point, which wasn't valid in the first place.

I do think clapping is a bit of an empty gesture personally, but doesn't change how grateful & thankful I am for the NHS as it is today and it's staff members.

[DK2019]

This may be partially true (i'd actually argue that *all* governments have kept funding to a minimum, whether red/blue or hybrid), but its also irrelevant. If they money had been available it would not have been put into ventilators, intensive care beds and similar - there are funding holes all over the NHS and naturally the money goes to where it's needed at that particular time.

Had we put all the cash (that we didn't have, and still don't) into ventilators straight after the Cygnus trial there would have been an outcry about "why wasn't it spent on <insert_clinical_area_here>".

No matter who was in power they would have been in trouble and have "done the wrong thing".

The reality is we're in a horrible situation and have an great team working in the NHS doing all they can to get through it - bitching and moaning about underfunding helps no one. I think it was particularly despicable of Jeremy Corbyn recently giving an interview where he did exactly that and started with the "if only we'd been in power we'd have funded blah blah" - trying to turn a global disaster into a political point, which wasn't valid in the first place.

I do think clapping is a bit of an empty gesture personally, but doesn't change how grateful & thankful I am for the NHS as it is today and it's staff members.

His labour wanted to invest in llabour and wanted to reverse austerity which hasn't worked. There have been soooooo many tory blunders that have led to loss of life which we are told "not to politicise" grenfell led to people killed and nothing to rectify it, the fit for work scandal happened and nothing changed and now this? People are going to die en masse pointlessly and the left are being attacked for having solutions.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Had we put all the cash (that we didn't have, and still don't) into ventilators straight after the Cygnus trial there would have been an outcry about "why wasn't it spent on <insert_clinical_area_here>".

We are one of the leading economies on the planet. Our unemployment,etc was less than many European countries too.

We have less ventilators per capita than the USA of all places.

The USA has 173000 ventilators spread across 330 million people. We have just over 8000 spread across 67 million people(might have a bit more if we add private hospitals too). The US has 13000 ventilators as a backup.

We have half the ICU beds per capita of Italy which is a poorer country,with massive political instability and problems stemming from what is happening in North Africa. We have a similar number of ICU beds per capita as Greece....which is nearly bankrupt.

Even a doubling of ventilators would have an impact on day to day NHS operations,as people do actually need them and we have an ageing population. Its more common for older people and those with respiratory issues to actually need them. Our population is ageing...and you can see what happened in Italy and Spain with its older population and multi-generational families,and as time progresses we will see the same shifts here.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...tage-hospitals

NHS intensive care units sending patients elsewhere due to lack of beds

We have been lacking enough ICU beds and ventilators for years.....so its not right to say if the government bought more ventilators and ICU beds the public would be moaning.

Plus we can afford ventilators,if we can afford to piddle around abroad not actually achieving anything that helps this country let alone the people needing to risk their lives. A single F35 fighter costs at least $123 million for us PLUS spares and additions. Assuming a pre-coronavirus ventilator cost of $25000 each in the US,that is 5000 ventilators there alone. Buy 2 less F35s we can afford 10000 ventilators and that is paying US costs,and they overpay for everything. We are buying 138 F35s.....I assume delayed buying 2 or 3 won't suddenly mean the end of our the world. We spend £13.4 billion on international aid alone,etc. 10000 ventilators would at least double what we have and bring us closer to Italy.

We can afford to buy extra ventilators and create more ICU capacity.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Also even the Daily Mail is mocking the government for its slow response...the Daily Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...body-kits.html

'Tell us if you can produce testing kits': Manufacturers are baffled after government pens letter pleading for businesses to make antigen and antibody kits - after their offers of help were ignored for FOUR WEEKS

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-and-confusion

Britain’s attempt to plug a shortage of life-saving ventilators needed to treat the most seriously ill coronavirus patients is being hobbled by mishaps and confusion.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s failure to sign up to a European Union-wide effort to buy ventilators has left the government open to accusations of putting Brexit over people’s lives -- while U.K. manufacturers have warned they might need months to respond to the government’s call to ramp up production.

At stake is Britain’s ability to respond to a nationwide outbreak that has already claimed 759 lives. The National Health Service has less than a third of the devices it needs and Johnson’s call to get 30,000 in service within weeks is not just a test of his leadership, but also his reluctance to engage with the EU.

“The hard reality is there’s an awfully big hill to climb,” said James Greenham, managing director of medical device manufacturer EMS Physio. “When you hear ministers say we’re going to have thousands of these in a few weeks, you simply cannot believe them.”

Johnson’s spokesman initially said the government didn’t take part in the Europe-wide procurement program because the U.K. isn’t a member of the EU. After the bloc pointed out Britain was still welcome to join, the prime minister’s office said it didn’t receive the invitation due to a “communication problem.”
Four Rounds

The bloc insisted British representatives were in meetings about sourcing ventilators and it was clear the U.K., which left the bloc in January, was eligible to join the EU initiative. London’s decision not to take part means it has already missed out on four procurement rounds.

“The possibility of launching a procurement procedure has been discussed several times in meetings of the health security committee in which the U.K. participated,” Commission spokesman Stefan De Keersmaecker told reporters. “At these meetings the commission stressed its readiness to further support countries with the procurement of medical counter-measures if needed. So member states and the U.K. had the opportunity to signal they wanted to participate.”

.....
Dyson announced this week it had developed a new ventilator and received an order from Britain for 10,000 units -- but the government later said its purchase would depend on regulators approving the device.
“So Much Ambiguity”

A separate group including Airbus, McLaren Automotive Ltd, Siemens AG and Meggitt Plc is trying to ramp up production of existing ventilator designs made by Smiths Group Plc and Penlon Ltd -- but it is also waiting for the green light from government.

“Things are happening, but there’s so much ambiguity and vagueness at the moment,” said Tony Hague, chief executive officer of Midlands-based manufacturer PP Control & Automation, which has offered to help the ventilator-building effort. “There are a lot of people not very clear about a lot of things.”

Any new ventilator design would have to jump through lengthy -- and necessary -- regulatory hoops in order to be approved for use in intensive care wards, according to Greenham. That process, which includes developing a prototype, testing it “to destruction,” and ensuring traceability of all components, typically takes two to three years, he said.

Johnson held talks with some of the manufacturers late on Thursday, according to his office, and assured them the government would move as quickly as possible to approve new designs as long as they meet the requirements.


“I’m sure Dyson and Airbus have got thousands of engineers who can help, but you’ve still got to test it and verify it before you go into production,” he said.

Greenham’s verdict chimes with what Penlon Ltd. said soon after Johnson issued his call to manufacturers. The company makes anesthesia machines that perform some of the functions of intensive care ventilators and is now involved in one of the groups working to scale up production. To develop a new product from scratch and secure regulatory approval would take three years, it said.

For all the criticism, some progress is being made, with the government acquiring 50 ventilators from overseas in the past week, according to one official familiar with the matter.

“The government is pulling out every stop to explore every avenue to get more ventilators,” said Stephen Phipson, chief executive of the MakeUK manufacturing lobby group. “No stone is unturned on this one. Whether it results in ventilators being produced quickly enough is another matter -- but they are trying everything.”

It gets even better:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9432296.html

Andy Faulkner, the manager of Topland, a Dubai firm helping Direct Access obtain ventilators, said the two companies offered the government 5,000 units a week over five weeks – but initially received no response.

“No one seemed to be taking us seriously,” he revealed, adding: “They asked us to register on the ventilation website, which we did, and then waited another five days for any response.”

Mr Faulkner said all stock had now gone and that it would be June or July before any orders placed this week could be fulfilled.

Companies are all reporting the same thing...utter confusion and no coherent message and that is including the consortia building our kits and ventilators!

It seems both right and left wing media is unified in its criticism too.

This is what was posted by someone else in the coronavirus thread:

This is an interesting article. Once the pandemic is finally over (presumably once a vaccine is available in 12 months or so), I hope the likes of Dominic Cummings et al are called to account:

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/03/t...atlantic-idea/

Peter Jukes finds more evidence that the origin of the disastrous concept can be traced back to the Prime Minister’s chief advisor Dominic Cummings and his US links.

Wuhan was locked down by the end of January. We had our first case in January. We had 2 months to get into gear,and the 2016 pandemic exercise would be enough to tell us what to do.

Do people hear think how weird it is for the government to be so terrified of the 2016 exercise it is still classified after 4 years?

Its all down to certain "advisors" in the government who have disproportionate power....I in fact think Bojo is probably less of the issue here,just he trusts certain people too much and it reflects badly on him.