The year is 2030. What does the world look like?

[onlyme2]

Economic growth protects and enhances human life. Economic recession kills.

One thing I cannot seem to reconcile when reading your statement, how come in UK and USA we are among the world leaders in economic growth yet we have the highest death rates due to Covid-19?

It is not the size of growth that protects and enhances human life, it's government polices that do.

[TeePee]

One thing I cannot seem to reconcile when reading your statement, how come in UK and USA we are among the world leaders in economic growth yet we have the highest death rates due to Covid-19?

It is not the size of growth that protects and enhances human life, it's government polices that do.

We don't have the highest death rates. Use deaths per million population to compare.

The UK and US are both reporting 'deaths with', rather than 'deaths from', while many other countries are not.

In the US, the numbers are drastically over-inflated, due to the way that healthcare is paid for. The government is paying more for patients diagnosed with Covid-19, and no testing is required.

But, we also have a lot more vulnerable people. Because of that economic success, we are very, very, good at keeping unhealthy people alive for a long time.

That is collapsing during this shut down, with so many people afraid to seek treatment for serious ailments, the death rate is staggering.

Government policies are limited by how much money they have to spend. With the current economy, the UK is facing a decade or more of austerity. They can't invest in the NHS without the money to pay for it. And the UK has managed the economy far better than many other countries that have shut down, including the US.

[onlyme2]

We don't have the highest death rates. Use deaths per million population to compare.

The UK and US are both reporting 'deaths with', rather than 'deaths from', while many other countries are not.

In the US, the numbers are drastically over-inflated, due to the way that healthcare is paid for. The government is paying more for patients diagnosed with Covid-19, and no testing is required.

But, we also have a lot more vulnerable people. Because of that economic success, we are very, very, good at keeping unhealthy people alive for a long time.

That is collapsing during this shut down, with so many people afraid to seek treatment for serious ailments, the death rate is staggering.

Government policies are limited by how much money they have to spend. With the current economy, the UK is facing a decade or more of austerity. They can't invest in the NHS without the money to pay for it. And the UK has managed the economy far better than many other countries that have shut down, including the US.

Who sets the limit of how much to spend on healthcare?

Cuba which is 90 miles away from USA, and has been under economic sanctions for over 60 years, with hardly any exports to speak of, yet the Cuban government has enough resources to spend on health care, so much so that life expectancy in Cuba (77.7 years) is nearly identical to that of USA (78.37 years), and Cuba has 4.9 hospital beds per 1,000 people compared to only 3.3 hospital beds per 1,000 people in the USA, or what about number of deaths per million population due to Covid-19 in UK (first world economy) and New Zealand (not a first world economy).

[TeePee]

Who sets the limit of how much to spend on healthcare?

Cuba which is 90 miles away from USA, and has been under economic sanctions for over 60 years, with hardly any exports to speak of, yet the Cuban government has enough resources to spend on health care, so much so that life expectancy in Cuba (77.7 years) is nearly identical to that of USA (78.37 years), and Cuba has 4.9 hospital beds per 1,000 people compared to only 3.3 hospital beds per 1,000 people in the USA, or what about number of deaths per million population due to Covid-19 in UK (first world economy) and New Zealand (not a first world economy).

Covid treatment in the US is paid by Medicare, which is a combination of State and Federal funding. NY has just cut the budget for medicare in the middle of their outbreak. Medicare pays hospitals at fixed amounts for each type of treatment or procedure provided, with 20% extra for Covid-19 patients.

I'm sure there are exceptions to everything. Cuba is often cited for their healthcare and life expectancy, but there's a lengthy off topic discussion. New Zealand is a First World country with a median income higher than the UK. But they're also a small island nation with a low population density and far less international travel. It's was a lot easier to test and contain outbreaks there. They also managed to avoid panicking their population, so the damage caused by their shut down will be much reduced. Sweden is predicted to also be successful, despite the disease being widespread, again because the panic was much reduced.

If anything is to blame for the situation in the UK and US, it's the media. They've pushed the millions dying narrative, with daily death counters, etc. It's no surprise many people believe they have the highest death rate. With time, people will start to realize just how deadly these economic shut downs have been, but by then it may be too late.

[onlyme2]

Covid treatment in the US is paid by Medicare, which is a combination of State and Federal funding. NY has just cut the budget for medicare in the middle of their outbreak. Medicare pays hospitals at fixed amounts for each type of treatment or procedure provided, with 20% extra for Covid-19 patients.

I'm sure there are exceptions to everything. Cuba is often cited for their healthcare and life expectancy, but there's a lengthy off topic discussion. New Zealand is a First World country with a median income higher than the UK. But they're also a small island nation with a low population density and far less international travel. It's was a lot easier to test and contain outbreaks there. They also managed to avoid panicking their population, so the damage caused by their shut down will be much reduced. Sweden is predicted to also be successful, despite the disease being widespread, again because the panic was much reduced.

If anything is to blame for the situation in the UK and US, it's the media. They've pushed the millions dying narrative, with daily death counters, etc. It's no surprise many people believe they have the highest death rate. With time, people will start to realize just how deadly these economic shut downs have been, but by then it may be too late.

Incomes in New Zealand are not higher than UK:
- Average NZ annual income is 49k NZD.
- Average UK annual income is 30k GBP.
1NZ dollar = 0.5 GBP


New Zealand is not a first world economy:
UK sixth largest economy in the world at 3.016 trillion purchasing power parity dollars.
New Zealand is ranked 51st in the world at 192.5 billion purchasing power parity dollars.

But who knows, this could all change by 2030.

Finally it's not the media that is killing people, it's Covid-19.

[TeePee]

Incomes in New Zealand are not higher than UK:
- Average NZ annual income is 49k NZD.
- Average UK annual income is 30k GBP.
1NZ dollar = 0.5 GBP


New Zealand is not a first world economy:
UK sixth largest economy in the world at 3.016 trillion purchasing power parity dollars.
New Zealand is ranked 51st in the world at 192.5 billion purchasing power parity dollars.

But who knows, this could all change by 2030.

Finally it's not the media that is killing people, it's Covid-19.

Fear and the shut down are killing far more people than the virus.

But I think a little further reading would be helpful here:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...rld-countries/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median...ome_by_country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...PP)_per_capita

[spacein_vader]

Fear and the shut down are killing far more people than the virus.

Do you have any numbers that would substantiate that?

[TeePee]

Do you have any numbers that would substantiate that?

Yes. The easiest example is the massive decline in people seeking treatment for all kinds of conditions.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52382303

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-52445067

https://www.cathlabdigest.com/conten...id-19-pandemic

While a 40-75% decline in treatment doesn't necessarily mean a 40-75% increase in death rate, it points at the scale of the problem. 170,000 people die from Heart Attacks each year in the UK. A 40% increase this year would dwarf the expected total for Covid-19, and that's for Heart Attacks alone. Add Strokes, Cancer, other respiratory diseases, and even a small increase in death rate will exceed Covid-19 deaths. Then there's the non-medical deaths, the suicide and domestic violence.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52295894
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52157620

[onlyme2]

Yes. The easiest example is the massive decline in people seeking treatment for all kinds of conditions.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52382303

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-52445067

https://www.cathlabdigest.com/conten...id-19-pandemic

While a 40-75% decline in treatment doesn't necessarily mean a 40-75% increase in death rate, it points at the scale of the problem. 170,000 people die from Heart Attacks each year in the UK. A 40% increase this year would dwarf the expected total for Covid-19, and that's for Heart Attacks alone. Add Strokes, Cancer, other respiratory diseases, and even a small increase in death rate will exceed Covid-19 deaths. Then there's the non-medical deaths, the suicide and domestic violence.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52295894
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52157620

Not that I am challenging the BBC's professionalism (remember the BBC feeding us the story of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction on a daily basis for over ten years?), but I would like to tell you about my personal experience. I had to miss three hospital appointments over the past two months not due to my fear of Covid-19, but because I was contacted by the relevant departments at my local hospital who cancelled my appointments, because the NHS does not have the resources to carry out routine appointments/ procedures and tackle the Covid-19 outbreak at the same time.

[g8ina]

OK, COVID again and arguments, enough., closed.