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Thread: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

  1. #33
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    I'm far more interested in the energy levels of ETH.
    Sorry my mindreading failed me, when you asked about bitcoin transactions I thought you meant bitcoin transactions

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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    Come on, are you really going to tell me that you read me saying 'bitcoin' and didn't understand that I meant 'eth'?

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    That would be useful except for I don't have a tesla, I drive a mazda 3 that gets about 40-45 mpg. Yes, I know they're very hard to compare, but I've seen such comparisons before, so I know it's possible.

    I'm far more interested in the energy levels of ETH.
    That is interesting, we see lots of talk about Bitcoin but none about the altcoins, and Eth has to be by far the worst energy consumer of the lot (from pure size of adoption compared to the others, coupled with using proof of work).

    I shall throw out an estimate, and see what holes people pick in it...

    Eth has a total hash rate today of 575 THash/s : https://etherscan.io/chart/hashrate

    We can put some bounds on energy consumption for that.
    Now I suspect most of the mining will be done on 7nm graphics cards, the 5700XT and 3060 Ti seemingly the ones to go for. So a quick Google tells me you can expect 60MH/s for 120W on a 3060 Ti, so if everyone was using those cards (yes I know they aren't, this is getting a feel for the power usage you can't get a precise number) then you are looking at

    (575000000/60)*120 = 1.15GW

    I will admit that is a bit better than I was expecting, the world's Eth consumption is currently about the output of Sizewell B, our largest nuclear power plant in the UK. Or, as I type this, the entire solar power plant output of the UK: https://grid.iamkate.com/
    As an aside, I suspect the 575000000/60 = 9.6 million is a rough indicator of how many GPUs are mining (just Eth) at any one moment.

    That gives a median value, and I suspect isn't that far out. Now, the possible spread of how far out that could be.

    There will be some people running older 12nm & 14nm graphics cards, and a quick Google of the GTX 2080 and RX580 it seems 100W gets you 25MH/s, so if all that mining was on older cards you could about double that figure to about 2.2GW

    If everyone was using ASIC miners, then those things are 3GH/s at 800W, so we are looking at (575000000/3000)*800 = 153 MW, which is a lot but clearly nowhere near as bad. That's why I am saddened by the Crypto community's resistance to ASICs.

    So the total energy consumption of just the GPUs in the eth network is between 2GW and 0.15GW, but probably about 1GW assuming most users are on 7nm GPUs and the 14nm GPUs and ASIC miners sort of balance each other out. Now the CPU and motherboards driving those will consume a bit, and the PSUs will have some overhead so you can add maybe 10% onto that given mining rigs are run with an eye on efficiency using high efficiency PSUs, low end Pentium class CPUs and one stick of ram.

    Now the bit that gets sickening... That ~ 1.2GW is powering the world computer to do about 16 transactions per second: https://blockchair.com/ethereum/char...ons-per-second.

    16 transactions/s is about peak trading for Tesco. Traditional payments, I can get better than that out of a single raspberry pi.

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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    And using DanceswithUnix's figures and the hash explorer gives this graph:

    So if the total hashrate is nearly 10 million cards, it seems most of that was added recently - although the previous dips might imply some dual-usage cards in that when things boom gamers might mine when not gaming.
    The rise coincides with the release of Ampere since then hash has increased from 262 to 573. So around half of those 10 million cards were added recently - 5 million cards or so.
    Not really going anywhere with this, however:
    1. The March 21 Steam survey implied that around 3.5 million 'gamers' (or people who install Steam) have Ampere cards
    2. This gen Nvidia mines better than AMD
    3. AMD's RDNA2 is almost totally absent on Steam.
    4. Consoles have sold over 8 million by now


    Not sure what this all implies, but demand is crazy even without mining. From the hash rates it is possible that Ampere has sold over 5 million or more with 2 million or so to pure miners.

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    [*]This gen Nvidia mines better than AMD
    Note that the 5700X was really good at mining (one Youtuber bought 70 of them at the start of the current bubble). The latest 6000 series cards with the narrower ram and big cache act as a nice hardware mining limiter, so no bypassing that They only have to be profitable vs their power usage though, rose tinted mining glasses will do the rest to seal the AMD purchase.

    Those noticeable dips in the graph are probably rigs being switched over to some other coin as it becomes more profitable, then being switched back again.

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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Those noticeable dips in the graph are probably rigs being switched over to some other coin as it becomes more profitable, then being switched back again.
    Why wouldn't they be explainable by virtue of price, i.e. wouldn't the demand for cards track with profitability of mining?

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Why wouldn't they be explainable by virtue of price, i.e. wouldn't the demand for cards track with profitability of mining?
    Not from what I have seen. Those rose tinted mining glasses seem to make all cards look profitable regardless of the price of the cards, it is just whether you get your money back in two months or in 12 months. OFC, if you *really believe* like a Disney Princess, then "when crypto takes over and the value goes to the moon" even running at a loss now leads to profit later. Not my idea of sane risk, but there you go.

    Now the Eth gas price has dropped back to something sane recently. That will really hit Eth miners in the wallet, with an outlook of mining rewards getting lower in future. But with current Eth prices where they are (and they could well sneak up further) I don't think any of that matter.s

  8. #40
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    To explain the 'take the power back' line, well, that's something slightly different from what I mean. The banking system is corrupt as hell. It is meant to be something that provides liquidity to the system. What it actually does (amongst many other things, some good, some bad) is transfer wealth and power from the many to the few. It is a key cog in the system - perhaps, if you take the analogy of the car, it is the actual wheels. You can see the way our society is moving away from cash - for understandable reasons, governments want to be able to keep tabs on their citizens. The libertarian stance on crypto is that it's stopping that process. I'm no libertarian, mind, what I class as government overreach is different from what the average crypto permabull does, but nonetheless, I see the appeal. Any movement away from central bank control of our funds is a good one. You can call it cringeworthy if you like - that's a personal opinion - but unfounded it is not. There is lots of legitimate political philosophy behind cryptocurrency.
    So by taking power back, you mean shuffling the deck, the vast, vast majority have no chance of getting into the asset bubble, because that's what it is due to not having enough "coins" per head of global population.

    There is no way a disenfranchised person in a 3rd world country is benefitting.

    As for the tabs on their citizens? Cash is far harder to track than crypto (oh and cash works at scale).

    Why do you not want a central bank involved, their reason for being is to provide stability. This is why we regulate banks because we learnt that we had to in the 19th century. Hence why crypto is so unstable, unsafe and completely useless.
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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Online Habits Killing The Planet - Dispatches

    Another datapoint on the whole mining thing.

    This should be a significant sample of home mining. Not the big players who self host everything, don't bother with pools etc:

    https://hiveos.farm/statistics/

    The modal card is an AMD 580/570, so I guess people really don't care about energy use and I was underestimating a bit.

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