Help me

[TiMeZeRo]

ok i've decided to stay on an extra year at college because in the first year i failed maths and physics so i want to finish the alevels only problem is teachers want me to be doin 3 subjects not to keen on picking up another as but i talked to my ict teacher and he said i could do a specialized course if i could find one that was completely internet based. and the school are going to fund me to do it first thoughts were php or graphics but ive given up on them as 1 im already great at graphics and 2 there are far to many ppl who can do them already and not enough jobs going around. instead i decided on programming problem is im not sure wat language atm its between java and C++ would prefer C++ (object orientated) but i cant find a course which fit my criteria also i cant have it costing thousands the school only has so much money lol. so im looking for help finding internet based courses on C++ Object Orientated that are completely web based

any ideas will be useful thank you

( notice im typing properly now LOL )

[herbert_goon]

Hi

Firstly best of luck!

Secondly - java is OO! It is also very popular for web content creation. C++ is not really used for web code unless there is no choice (in terms of performance) - then you can write ISAPI extensions to process web requests (e.g. ebay). I have had to do this a couple of times and it can get complex! Also with the IIS6/aspdotnet world there is generally no need to do this any more.

If you learn 1, the other will come easily.

At the moment, C++ jobs are in what you might call the "hardcore" areas, like games, financial pricing tools and linux development. The jobs pay very well but you do need a string aptitude in another area to make yourself marketable, like mathmatics, engineering or the like.

Java jobs are 2 a penny and are generally in a corporate environment.

One last thing, if you go java, I strongly recommend learning a database like sqlserver, oracle or mysql as you will invariable need that skill also!

Hope all goes well!

[Spud1]

Firstly - how about an english grammar course? Sorry but that post was really hard to read...

Second - don't bother learning C++. There i've said it. It's a great language that lets you do O-O and your own memory management (unlike the one i'm going to suggest in a moment) but unless you are planning to go into games programming and suchlike, there is little use for it in the real world these days.

If you are looking for an introduction to programming then I would fully reccomend learning C as a starter language. It will teach you basic syntax, programming style and techniques, and is a great language to build on. If you know C already, or a programming language other than VB, then you could look towards a .NET language - such as C#. dotNet is looking like the future at the moment, with Microsoft putting alot of money into it, and as more features are added dotNet is looking like a great language.

If dotNet puts you off then Java is the next best thing. personally I don't like java, but I have to admit that it is an easy way to get into O-O programming if you don't want to go for dotNet, and Sun does some really good documentation for it (unlike Microsofts documentation...which is very hit and miss).

As for courses - well there are enough free ones out there that will stand you in good sted.
http://www.gotdotnet.com/
http://www.dotnetjunkies.com/
http://www.samspublishing.com/librar...seqNum=85&rl=1

Just a few URLs - for java look at the sun website

Hope thats of some use

[TiMeZeRo]

well thanx for the info might do java got a leaflet through the post with a java course on it

www.homelearningcollege.com

i want to get a qualification of some sort out of this not just know the language

does that site look any good *no idea about courses*

also looks on the sun website they are really good might go with them 225 quid for lesson stuff and exam not to bad

[Spud1]

Well...really need someone who deals with hiring and fireing here to back this next statement up, but..

There are so, so, so many different accreditations, qualifications, certifications etc etc these days that most of them really mean nothing to an employer. For example you have the ACITP, BCS, BCES, ABET, CAC to name but a few. They sound great to the customer (ie you) but in the real world mean nothing unless the employer knows what they are.

There are a few 'big' ones that do mean something, such as Microsoft or Sun ones - but none of these are really aimed at the beginner, more at professionals or those with some programming experience.

You are looking for more of an introduction to java though from your post. My point is you don't need to waste money (yours or the schools) on a course that you can get for free, just because it's accredited by XYZ company...

edit: that said, I guess the school is paying, and that website does offer what looks to be a nice basic introduction to java, so maybe it's worth pursuing. It also doesnt hurt, even if it is a meaningless accreditation

I still think you are better off learning .Net though, it's a newer technology, in my view a much nicer language to work with, and will *probably* give you better job prospects when combined with a degree in the future.

[TiMeZeRo]

looked on the sun website and the SUN CERTIFIED ASSOCIATE looks like an introduction type thing and its only 150 quid for the exams and its from sun and after that i could do the programmer one. i wont be starting the course till next school year and have not problem with learning java over the summer holidays

[dangel]

Interesting reading this thread - but the advice is somewhat circumspect from my POV as someone working in development for the past 15 years or so..

First off - the advice to learn 'C' as a starter language - PLEASE DON'T DO THIS! C is a very different language from C++ (or even C#) and hardly the best place to start out - it's full of horrible defunct abreviated function calls and you'll have a very tough time of it. Add to this that it's no longer really relevant for the current/future (for the vast majority of jobs) it's no way to go.

So what is?

Well, my money is on .NET development - over the next few years I expect it to become rapidly dominant from desktops to the web. Sounds fancyful? Then take a long look at where Microsoft is pitching .NET 3.0 (formerly WinFX) which looks like it's going to wipe out even recent technologies such as windows forms (no bad thing, they suck).
.NET 3.0 is a superset of current .NET technologies but now we have XAML based apps which can be built to run in both a desktop environment and even inside IE7 (XBAP) and it's very, very powerful. I'm spending a heck of a lot of time now experimenting with these new technologies as they're really exciting for application development in the power they provide. A good place to start getting an idea for what MS are up to is to look up 'Microsoft Expression' which comes in three forms - one for application developers, one for web designers (yes they're going after flash/macromedia) and one for graphic designers. You can happily work in expression and then simply load the same project into Visual Studio 2005 - or you can write code in expression itself.

So, if like me, you're not looking to work on embedded systems .NET looks like a really powerful choice - but which language? Well, you've got quite a choice - C++, C#, J# or VB.NET. J# is probably a dead end and only really useful for Java programmers looking to migrate. C# seems to be the language of choice for most .NET programmers and so i'd say start there. It's not too hard to learn and has the power and flexibility to stay with you throughout your career without merely being a stepping stone to something else.

I heard someone suggest C++ is marginalised? No - in fact, it's the fastest .NET language out there (it's effectively 'compiled' further) and MS want it to be a premier language for .NET development. Here in Cambridgeshire C++ jobs are probably the most common by far..

I've largerly ignore .NET until recently - but the advent of .NET 3.0 and Vista have suddenly provided a whole bunch of really attractive features to both me and my team. Almost all our code is currently in C++ (with MFC) form and we're looking to do a major rewrite using .NET 3.0 in the coming year.

Hope that's some help!

[Spud1]

First off - the advice to learn 'C' as a starter language - PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!

I heard someone suggest C++ is marginalised? No - in fact, it's the fastest .NET language out there (it's effectively 'compiled' further) and MS want it to be a premier language for .NET development. Here in Cambridgeshire C++ jobs are probably the most common by far..
!

I reccomended C as a starter language primarily for it's syntax, and because I think that it is a lot easier to grasp object orientation if you have learnt at least the basics of a procedural language first...that was how I learnt and it has stood me in good stead so far..just my opinion though of course It also means that you can learn about control structures, basic data types, looping, arrays etc without having to worry about the O-O side of things.

C++ is not .net though...possibly you mean Visual C++ which is a different kettle of fish, but pure C++ has nothing to do with .net That's what C# is for - it has similar syntax but uses the .net libraries instead of ANSIC and MFC..

[TiMeZeRo]

ok right.. so now its java or .net hmmmm

where would i find .net courses i found java ones already

[dangel]

I reccomended C as a starter language primarily for it's syntax, and because I think that it is a lot easier to grasp object orientation if you have learnt at least the basics of a procedural language first...that was how I learnt and it has stood me in good stead so far..just my opinion though of course It also means that you can learn about control structures, basic data types, looping, arrays etc without having to worry about the O-O side of things.

I just wouldn't like to start with C's grungy syntax (string handling anyone?) from the get go. OO isn't hard anyway - not if you take the VB.NET route!

C++ is not .net though...possibly you mean Visual C++ which is a different kettle of fish, but pure C++ has nothing to do with .net That's what C# is for - it has similar syntax but uses the .net libraries instead of ANSIC and MFC..

Really it's just a difference in POV - i'm a Windows programmer so C++ to me _is_ .NET enable as I use Visual Studio (and hey, you can write mixed code anyway). I'd call it 'Managed C++' if you like. C++ (ANSI n'all) is still there it's just there are extensions to support .NET.

I think of C# as 'Visual Basic for C++ programmers'

[Spud1]

Hmm I would never advise anyone serious about getting into programming to touch VB...all it teaches is terrible syntax and lazyness - moving from VB to something more structured has been a pain for the few people I know who have done things this way - by fair their most common mistake is forgetting the good old ; - my most common VB mistake is putting it in lol

That said, all .NET languages compile to exactly the same intermediate code no matter what you write it in, so hello world in VB.NET and C# compiles to the same thing...so I guess it doesn't matter *that* much but I still wouldn't advise it

Your right about the string handling - but tbh writing your own string routines isnt *that* hard, and there are plenty you can get off google anyway. Plus learning about chars etc is a good idea, as opposed to just sticking to the top level..

Managed C++ is what you mean I guess same syntax and all but with memory management, and access to certain .NET libraries. It won't be cross platform though, unlike pure .NET (C#, VB.NET)

Not quite sure how you got C# as being VB for C++ programmers though, it's nothing of the sort Same syntax, just 100% .NET (unless you put in unsigned code ofc, then you can add in C++ to it - or through interop you can add in java...I love .NET lol)

[TiMeZeRo]

ok im having trouble finding .net courses can someone help me out

[dangel]

Hmm I would never advise anyone serious about getting into programming to touch VB...all it teaches is terrible syntax and lazyness - moving from VB to something more structured has been a pain for the few people I know who have done things this way - by fair their most common mistake is forgetting the good old ; - my most common VB mistake is putting it in lol

VB.NET is completely OO tho - and at the end of the day BASIC was meant to be an entry level to programming..

That said, all .NET languages compile to exactly the same intermediate code no matter what you write it in, so hello world in VB.NET and C# compiles to the same thing...so I guess it doesn't matter *that* much but I still wouldn't advise it

C++ (.NET) is apparently optimized slightly further according to MS..

Your right about the string handling - but tbh writing your own string routines isnt *that* hard, and there are plenty you can get off google anyway. Plus learning about chars etc is a good idea, as opposed to just sticking to the top level..

For a beginner? Can't really agree!

Managed C++ is what you mean I guess same syntax and all but with memory management, and access to certain .NET libraries. It won't be cross platform though, unlike pure .NET (C#, VB.NET)

Cross platform for .NET is pretty irrelevant commericially - you'll never be stuck for a job for pure Windows development will you? Managed C++ _can_ be cross platform but not always (which is why it can be faster under windows than the other languages).

Not quite sure how you got C# as being VB for C++ programmers though, it's nothing of the sort Same syntax, just 100% .NET (unless you put in unsigned code ofc, then you can add in C++ to it - or through interop you can add in java...I love .NET lol)

I meant in that I find it very hard to switch to VB.NET because it shares far less similarities with C++ which is my primary language And yes, interop is great - when it works - i'm hoping that .NET 3.0 fixes the crappy handling of IDispatch controls..

[Spud1]

Didn't quote you here but I think it's obvious where I refer to

Fair points, and yeah VB/Basic is an entry into a 'type' of programming, but argueably it doesn't teach you much in the way of standards for anything except VB. Yes it is now O-O but that's not the issue - the majority of 'common' languages (say C, C++, Java, C#) share many similarities syntaxically - whereas VB.NET is totally different.

When I talk about strings/learning chars I still firmly believe that - otherwise you learn how to use strings in a simple way and then will find it incredibly difficult later on to do anything complex, whereas doing it the other way may be a bit harder at first but gives you a much better grounding. Still we can agree to disagree on that one I think as I certainly see what you mean, and with .NET you can easily get away without touching chars anyway for the most part.

I didn't know C# was optimised more..but maybe the compiler has just had more work done to it or something, nice to know though

I guess that cross platform kinda is irrelavent for the most part - but not always, for example when Mono is more advanced (and it is getting better with every version) it will allow you to deploy the same app on windows, linux, OSX (I have mono working with it ). Granted for large scale stuff this doesn't matter but for small monitoring tools, deployment apps etc it could be very useful. It's a nice feature to have anyway.

I also hope that 3.0 fixes that, and many other 'niggles' I have with it..Interop has saved me hours of work so far, but thats mainly due to Documentum only providing java classes for us to work with ;/

[TiMeZeRo]

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mc...s/default.mspx << found this on the microsoft learning site is it any good for entry level i have the summer holidays to learn the programming language and im good at picking stuff up used to be able to code very well in a game called graal *hmmm such great days* anyways if that isnt the right palce to start where is ? also how hard will it be to get into a job after gettnig a qualification i dont want to spend a year of school doin some course and realise at the end i cant do anything with it]

*EDIT* this is possible the thread with the biggest average character count per post :| its turned into a war which programming language is best lmao