Arg ! Please please help.

[Dave_07]

Well bought that Corsair TWINX2048-3200C2PL ram, and installed it. However i have a really annoying problem. I've set the timings to 2-3-3-6 (disabled configure by SPD) and also set the ram voltage to the 2.75v, just like on the corsair Spec Sheet for this ram. So the ram should by all rights be running at 2-3-3-6 right ? Well for some reason it doesn't appear to be. The mobo bios says the timings are 2-3-3-6 and the voltage is 2.75.... But when i check the timings using cpu-z, it says the timings are 3-3-3-6 !!! What 's going on ? the mobo is saying one thing and cpu-z is saying another. Also im more inclined to believe cpu-z's readings are actually correct and perhaps the bios is wrong, because i did a memtest86+ @ 3-3-3-8 timings when i first installed the ram, then after i changed the timings to 2-3-3-6, i did another memtest86+, and the wall-time did not improve at all, it was the same time, so obviously although the bios is saying the timings are 2-3-3-6, the ram isn't acting like it's at 2-3-3-6, it's acting more like it's still at 3-3-3-6, like cpu-z is reading.

Please how can i fix this ?

[icq3800846]

I think I am more likely to believe the BIOS than any 3rd party software, simply because the 3rd party software really relies on what the motherboard is telling it to stat with.

It IS possible that the BIOS you have has a fault that will display incorrect information, but as yours is a mature 875P chipset most of those annoying errors shoudl have been ironed out with a BIOS update by now.

I just wonder what BIOS says and what your utilities say if you pop into BIOS and let the motherboard detect the memory settings by SPD?

[Dave_07]

I think I am more likely to believe the BIOS than any 3rd party software, simply because the 3rd party software really relies on what the motherboard is telling it to stat with.

It IS possible that the BIOS you have has a fault that will display incorrect information, but as yours is a mature 875P chipset most of those annoying errors shoudl have been ironed out with a BIOS update by now.

I just wonder what BIOS says and what your utilities say if you pop into BIOS and let the motherboard detect the memory settings by SPD?

The stored SPD timings for this ram are 3-4-4-8 i think, when bios is set to configure by SPD, then obviously the timings go to 3-4-4-8, and cpu-z agrees with that, reading the timings at 3-4-4-8. It's only when i disable configure by SPD and manually set the timings to 2-3-3-6, which they are rated at, that then the bios (reading @ 2-3-3-6) disagrees with cpu-z (reading @ 3-3-3-6)

As you can see the last three numbers change, but the CAS does not.

[icq3800846]

I'd still be tempted to check for a BIOS update or an update to CPU-Z or for any known issues of running CPU-Z with your particular motherboard.

CPU-Z will only be able to work on what the BIOS is reporting to it. It can't climb out of the computer and go have a look for itself at the memory or anything, so you are perfectly right to be concerned.

Just out of interest, have you tried running SiSoft Sandra to see what that reports the memory timings as?

If Sandra reports the same as cpu-z then it might be that the information the BIOS is supplying when interrogated is wrong. If Sandra reports the same as the BIOS then it's cpu-z that is wrong.

Whilst you have a mature chipset (875p) made by a reputable manufacturer (MSI) there still might be problems in the programming of the BIOS that results in duff information being reported from the BIOS to any interrogatory programs.

I still would be tempted to trust the BIOS more than any program which runs on top of Windows, but would be interesting just to compare Sandra and see if there are any differences.

Incidentally, what happens if you manually input the memory timings into BIOS and make them the stock SPD speeds? Does cpu-z report it correctly then?

[mfurse]

I would check for a new BIOS too - I had that board in my old machine and new BIOS made such a difference. think the last revision was v2.4 - stable as a rock.

Have you made sure u have disabled "set by SPD" and then put the settings in manually, because I have previously disabled by spd, put settings in, (accidently) enabled 'set by spd' again and it kept half my settings and even showed the settings I put in on the bios > memory screen but actually set something different!

It would display the settings I last put in, but they were "greyed out" in the BIOS, i.e. unselectable if "set by spd" is enabled. This used to catch me out - I would rather they werent shown at all!

To be honest I ran 3-3-3-8 corsair and upgraded to 2-2-2-5 geil and it made virtually no performance difference on that board! Netburst CPU's eh - what can u do!

Matt

edit: oh yeah, nearly forgot, when/if you do a BIOS update - remember to do a full CMOS clear, you will have to put all your settings back in but it saves so much hassle!

[icq3800846]

My first ever memory upgrade that I did was to put an extra 2 x 16mb 72 pin EDO in my computer back in 1997, and to be fair, I've never really noticed any improvement. My current Corsair TwinX DDR2 667 ran for several months at 2T until I noticed it and changed it to 1T, it made no noticable difference at all that I could spot in real life applications.

Maybe I am a cynic, but I prefer the idea of having more memory, like upgrading to 2gig rather than having a faster 1gig of memory than I already have.

Better benchmarks are OK, but if you honestly can't tell a difference in real life, is it worth it?

Of course, maybe if you were encoding video and faster memory meant your project took 11 hours with slower memory and 10 hours 30 minutes with faster memory you might justify it, but for maybe half a second loading up a level on Far Cry, I just can't be bothered.

Sorry, that was meant to be realistic, and it might have come accross as pessamistic!

[Dave_07]

Arg this starting to make my head hurt... Anyway,

ok there's a number of things i need to ask,

1) Quote By icq3800846:

"Incidentally, what happens if you manually input the memory timings into BIOS and make them the stock SPD speeds? Does cpu-z report it correctly then?"

- Ho do i go about manually inputing timings into the bios and making them the stock SPD speeds ?

2) Quote By icq3800846:

"Just out of interest, have you tried running SiSoft Sandra to see what that reports the memory timings as ?"

- SiSoft Sandra reports the timings as "Speed - 3.0-3-3-8" so it's saying the cas is only 3 aswell, and it doesn't entirely agree with cpu-z, which says the timings are 3-3-3-6, only the last number is different. So both sandra and cpu-z, and all the other memory diagnostic programs i can find, all say that the cas is 3, not 2.0 like i have it set in the bios.

3) Quote By mfurse

"Have you made sure u have disabled "set by SPD" and then put the settings in manually, because I have previously disabled by spd, put settings in, (accidently) enabled 'set by spd' again and it kept half my settings and even showed the settings I put in on the bios > memory screen but actually set something different!"

- mfurse i didn't fully understand what you were saying there, are you saying that i should enable by SPD, then disable it, imput the 2-3-3-6 timings, then set it back to enable spd again ? and that will get it to 2-3-3-6 ?

Anyway, Here's what my DRAM Timings Settings Section looks like in my bios:
------------------------------------------
DRAM Timings Settings...

****DRAM Timing****
Configure DRAM Timing by SPD = Disable
--DRAM CAS# Latency = 2 Clocks
--DRAM RAS# Precharge = 3 Clocks
--DRAM RAS# to CAS# Delay =3 Clocks
--DRAM Precharge Delay = 6 Clocks
--DRAM Burst Length = 8
DRAM Integrity Mode = Disable
------------------------------------------
(And i have set the "DDR Power Voltage" in my bios to 2.75v)

4) Quote By mfurse

"edit: oh yeah, nearly forgot, when/if you do a BIOS update - remember to do a full CMOS clear, you will have to put all your settings back in but it saves so much hassle!"

- Im currently trying to find out how to flash my bios, it sounds kinda complicated, and scary I don't want to do something wrong and end up with a broken bios. MSI does also have a program called MIS Live Update, which runs in windows, searches the net for a bios update and then flash's the bios for you. This sounds alot simpler than the floppy method, with im struggling to understand. Tho im not sure about the live update thing either.

- How do you do a CMOS clear, and what is a CMOS clear ?

5) And lastly, i need some advice on possible path's i could take to get ram that runs at a cas of 2.0

- First option/path: Don't send this ram back (RMA) and try flashing the bios (which i've never done before) and also maybe do this clear CMOS thing aswell, and then see if all that does fix the problem, and get the ram to work at a cas of 2.0

- Second option/path: Do send the ram back (RMA), get a refund, and buy some other ram like Corsair TwinX PC3500LLPRO, which has stored SPD values of CAS 2-3-2-6. Then i wouldn't need to worry about if the ram will run manual timings, cause i already know that the SPD timings will do fine.

Two factors to bear in ming when choosing a option/path:

1) I'm still un-familiar with this CMOS stuff and flashing the bios (tho i cold use the MSI live update thing).
2) If I choose the first option/path and try updating the bios to see if that does fix the problem, i would need to do it very quickly, preferably tonight, because, the RMA process has already been started and i would need to pack up the ram and send it off by tomorrow if i want the RMA thing to get done in time.

Dave.

Edit, Sorry the post is so long.

[scrandman]

It sounds as though your BIOS is properly configured. Are you using the latest version of CPU-Z. In my experience, Sandra is unreliable at reading RAM timings, but CPU-Z is normally spot on.

[FatalSaviour]

It can't climb out of the computer and go have a look for itself at the memory or anything, so you are perfectly right to be concerned.

So I've put that mesh cage around my Midi Tower for NOTHING?!?! Now you tell me....

[Dave_07]

It sounds as though your BIOS is properly configured. Are you using the latest version of CPU-Z. In my experience, Sandra is unreliable at reading RAM timings, but CPU-Z is normally spot on.

CPU-Z Version im using is: v1.33.1 - April 2006.
Thats the latest one isn't it ?

*Update on learning about bios flashing procedure: It's not looking good, i've been reading on the MIS Bios forums and a few people are having problems with MSI Live Update 3/Live Monitor, when using win-flashing, but dos-flashing, they say is ok. lol i've not found out the difference between the two yet

[mfurse]

Yeah, sounds like you've got it configured properly in BIOS thats what should be set - just ignore my previous waffle!

I used the liveupdate windows program (latest version) to do all my BIOS updates...but I made sure I wasn't running anything when I did it - i.e. no virus scanner, firewall, programs, defragmenter, updates - nothing! I just went through the icons in the bottom right and closed/exitted everything and made sure my system was as clean as it could be before doing the update. Last thing I want is a lock up in the middle of writing the BIOS. I also put all my settings back to stock (as I was running an overclock).

Just after the BIOS update, I rebooted and went straight into the BIOS and "reset to defaults" to clear all my previous settings, then went back to setting them all up again, thats all I meant by a "cmos clear".

You have set the memory settings properly, no worries there! I would imagine if they settings are not staying then it could be because of an older BIOS/new memory thing, but if your system works fine other than this irritating "cas 2 being changed to 3" thing then it may not be worth the risk of updating the BIOS just to get a 2-3% performance increase. If it aint broke, don't fix it!

Matt

[Dave_07]

Yeah, sounds like you've got it configured properly in BIOS thats what should be set - just ignore my previous waffle!

I used the liveupdate windows program (latest version) to do all my BIOS updates...but I made sure I wasn't running anything when I did it - i.e. no virus scanner, firewall, programs, defragmenter, updates - nothing! I just went through the icons in the bottom right and closed/exitted everything and made sure my system was as clean as it could be before doing the update. Last thing I want is a lock up in the middle of writing the BIOS. I also put all my settings back to stock (as I was running an overclock).

Just after the BIOS update, I rebooted and went straight into the BIOS and "reset to defaults" to clear all my previous settings, then went back to setting them all up again, thats all I meant by a "cmos clear".

You have set the memory settings properly, no worries there! I would imagine if they settings are not staying then it could be because of an older BIOS/new memory thing, but if your system works fine other than this irritating "cas 2 being changed to 3" thing then it may not be worth the risk of updating the BIOS just to get a 2-3% performance increase. If it aint broke, don't fix it!

Matt

OMG ! - "2-3% performance increase"... Is that all it is ? I didn't know that. From various ram reviews and benchmarks i've seen, I go the impression that there was a world of difference between cas 2.0 & 3.0. lol and the "If it aint broke, don't fix it!" remark. You don't know how true of me that is There is sooooo much stuff i put up with on this computer that most people would not.

Out of interest when you say you used the live update windows program, was that the MSI Live Update 3 one (Which does it through a web browser) or the MSI Live Monitor one (Which brings up a window/separate box) As im not sure about the msi live update 3 one, because it seems to do it though a web browser, and that would mean you have to have a web browser open when you do the update, which goes against the "don't have anything else running when updating" rule.

Also mfurse, your post has sparked an idea in my head, what do you think about this: Just put up with the 3-3-3-6 timings, and as a compromise, just overclock the ddr ram frequency to 410/20Mhz (I noticed that at supposed 3-3-3-6 timings, i can overclock the ddr frequency quite far.) If i did this not only would the ram frequency go up, but it would push my cpu into the 3.0Ghz range (2.8Ghz stock) All this combined with the fact that i have much more ram now (going from 512Mb to 2Gig) and the sticks are in dual channel, would this mean that i would get the performance increase in game's that i originally bought the ram for ?

Or i could just RMA the ram and buy some 3500LL (Low Latency) ram with stock SPD values of 2-3-2-6. That way i could have ram at a cas of 2.0 The only downside is i don't know if my mobo will take pc3500, i would probably have to under-clock it and pull it down to 3200 speeds. But i don't mind that, at least it would be cas 2.0 Plus the ram has loverly LED's on it, check it out: The Other Ram or Go straight to the picture

I don't know what to do, either put up with 3-3-3-6, but overclock the ram or forget that and just buy some pc3500 @ 2-3-2-6. What would you do ?

oh yeah, what about that changing the SPD vlaues manually option that icq3800846 mentioned:

Quote By icq3800846:
"Incidentally, what happens if you manually input the memory timings into BIOS and make them the stock SPD speeds? Does cpu-z report it correctly then?"

Dave.

[mfurse]

To be honest, with the P4 netburst architecture, it has been shown time and time again that more bandwidth is much more important than tight timings. The athlon64 architecture with its integrated memory controller does see much more improvement through low latancy, but thats because the memory controller is on the chip, about as low latancy as it could be.

I went from running loose timings memory to tight timings and it made virtually no difference on my p4 platform. If you go for looser timings and try to up the fsb speed youll benefit much more by having an overclocked cpu clock and also more bandwidth for the 'starved' p4 architecture.

I never use the MSI monitor program (whats the point - not like a new bios was gona turn up for a 3 year old board all of a sudden!) but I did use the Live update 3 program to do my flashing and it worked a charm. I made sure everything was stock speeds though, no programs were running anywhere (including antivirus) and that I didnt have BIOS flash protection enabled in the BIOS (i.e. the bit that stops accidental flashing of the bios) i think that option was removed in the later bios so you may not see it - worth checking though. I just let the live update load what it needed, which was a web browser - well spotted (havent done it in a while!).

3500LL is nice stuff especially if you want a guarantee that you can run upto 437Mhz DDR (218Mhz) meaning your P4 would potentially run at 3018Mhz 1:1 (FSB:RAM). This would give you a better performance boost that 2-2-2-5 @ 200 by far! Try running your current corsair at 218 - normally it can be squeezed more than its rated for, especially at looser timings! I personally had some Corsair PC4000 (250mhz) for a while and ran my 2.6Ghz northwood P4 @ 3.25Ghz (1000Mhz FSB) because it was a special malaysian stepping from a batch of higher speed chips. Your P4 may not be so lucky but its worth a go, but making sure u have ram that can cope is a good step.

I think that icq3800846 meant to override the SPD settings, which is what you were doing, it just wasnt working for whatever reason!

Matt

[Dave_07]

Originally Posted by mfurse
"and that I didnt have BIOS flash protection enabled in the BIOS (i.e. the bit that stops accidental flashing of the bios) i think that option was removed in the later bios so you may not see it - worth checking though."

Yeah i don't see it in my bios anywhere, so i guess don't need to disable it then.

Well the MIS Live Update 3, thing doesn't seem to be working at the moment, i clicked on "Connect to MSI Live Update Server" but then the page just goes blank and nothing happens What is ment to happen or rather what happens next when you click on "Connect to MSI Live Update Server" ?

Also i know that MSI says you have to close down all other running programs like firewall, anti-virus, spyware checker etc... But im abit worried about this, because things.. bad things.. start or usually happed when im on the net and the firewall or any anti-virus is not running. Ironically i can see a situation happening where i close down all other programs including my firewall to prevent anything interfering with the update, but then as has happened in the past when the the firewall is down. Some doggy dialer program or something of that nature act's up, which could then interfere with the update, it's a kind of catch 22 situation.

Also just thought i'd let you know i used this ram compatibility thing on the corsair site, and it said that this ram is confirmed by corsair as working with my mobo at 2-3-3-6 timings. Weird hey, they say it should work, yet i doesn't. Only two options left then i guess, either the ram is faulty or the bios need updating.

[Dave_07]

Just found something interesting in SiSoftware Sandra, under Information Modules, in the "CPU & BIOS Information" bit. Click on "System BIOS" in the drop down menu at the top and then, at the bottom of the box, where it will say "Performance Tips" There is a notice called "Notice 224" Clicking on it brings up a help file which says:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice N224 - SMBIOS/DMI information may be inaccurate. This information is reported verbatim and cannot be checked by Sandra. While brand-name companies set this information most generic manufacturers use generic data that is meaningless. This issue generates more technical support queries than all other issues combined.
Fix: If the information is not correct, check for a BIOS update (clear DMI pool) or fix any errors using the DMICFG tool provided with the board. Alternatively, disable Sandra’s DMI/SMBIOS reporting from module Options.

SiSoftware Sandra Help File
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does this mean anything ??? I noticed it because it says the bios "may be inaccurate"

[mfurse]

SMBIOS/DMI is for stuff like interrupt information, IRQ tables, fan/temperature monitoring etc. Sandra isn't always 100% correct in what it says so I wouldn't worry.

If you are patched to SP2 and the latest secutiry patches then a quick disable of the firewall/virus scanner shouldn't cause u any problems whilst doing a live update.

To get live update to work you may need to click the yellow security bar to enable the activex control, think I had to do this back along. Once I enabled that it went off and checked for updates, then showed the one for my board, I downloaded it and then it asked to flash using winflash, which I agreed to. If you would prefer just before the flashing occurs u could disable the virusscanner, its just to prevent anything stopping the flashing going to plan.

Matt