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About LinkBacksRead more.Sunderland-based BEAST Computers has rolled out its first rigs to be built with the BEAST para-flow liquid cooling system.
Read more.Sunderland-based BEAST Computers has rolled out its first rigs to be built with the BEAST para-flow liquid cooling system.
Sadly we have been tarred with that brush a few times but no we aren't the same company.
Thanks
TR
BEAST
Good to hear, always worth clearing that up early on
What an act of love the new Beast is. Cool or what? Seriously how much gaming must anyone do to get the most out of that?
This system seems to be all over the web - it does look nice though I do have a problem with this "ground breaking" Para-flow system.
"According to BEAST, the trouble with your average water-cooled setup as that the internally mounted radiators are cooled by sucking in air from outside the case, through the radiator, and into the chassis."
Look at any other manufacturers systems and show me one which pumps hot rad air into a case..... I appreciate the fact that it's a custom design for the chassis but the first thing you do when watercooling is make sure that the radiator air is pumped out the case.
Also:
- 3 rads in a case in the same loop is a bit of a waste, why not split it up?
- you'll have fans blowing air in your face if it's on a desk from both sides, not just one
- there are 4 fans sucking air through the 2 rads which are fed by 1 140mm fan, surely this is sufficating the 4 x 120mm fans and they'll simply churn the air around outside the case?
I don't want to sound too millitant but it seems to fall way short of groundbreaking - it actually hinders the radiators performance. And, as someone on the Custom PC forum pointed out, the interior is exactly the same as a system they reviewed recently - Kobalt ICE X
Originally Posted by Vulcanite
This system seems to be all over the web - it does look nice though I do have a problem with this "ground breaking" Para-flow system.
"According to BEAST, the trouble with your average water-cooled setup as that the internally mounted radiators are cooled by sucking in air from outside the case, through the radiator, and into the chassis."
Look at any other manufacturers systems and show me one which pumps hot rad air into a case..... I appreciate the fact that it's a custom design for the chassis but the first thing you do when watercooling is make sure that the radiator air is pumped out the case.
Also:
- 3 rads in a case in the same loop is a bit of a waste, why not split it up?
- you'll have fans blowing air in your face if it's on a desk from both sides, not just one
- there are 4 fans sucking air through the 2 rads which are fed by 1 140mm fan, surely this is sufficating the 4 x 120mm fans and they'll simply churn the air around outside the case?
I don't want to sound too millitant but it seems to fall way short of groundbreaking - it actually hinders the radiators performance. And, as someone on the Custom PC forum pointed out, the interior is exactly the same as a system they reviewed recently - Kobalt ICE X
Hey Vulcanite
Appreciate some of your comments (even though it looks like you've signed up specifically to post negative comments about the system) and I will answer them as best I can.
Firstly we've actually tested this setup and the results speak for themselves. Otherwise, we wouldn't have released it. You have to understand that this system is unlike your normal liquid cooling setup and despite your observations, it does work exceptionally well.
I'm sure if the air is being blown into your face all you would need to do is re-arrange things slightly to make sure it doesn't. It's that simple so I can't really see what you're getting at there.
I don't find your observation militant at all, I just felt they are...lacking in imagination. For instance, we have proved by testing this setup that the radiators performance is by no means hindered, the fan setup at the front of the case works superbly and the water cooling loop doesn't need to be split up. The fact remains, it does it's job and it does it extremely well.
As for the interior being exactly the same as Kobalt's system I would argue that point. We have alot of respect for Kobalt as they put out some fantastic systems. However, Beast were actually the first system builder to use the black coils in our systems. As opposed the primochill type which have recently become readily available in this country, we have been making them ourselves for the last 3 years and most of our systems have a similar styling on the inside. I suppose you could say, just because a system is reviewed by Custom PC, doesn't mean it was the first to look that way.
We have put alot of research and time into this project and the fact that you're arguing points which have been tried and tested is moot.
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to put across some answers to worries that others may have about the system.
TR
BEAST
Hey,
Now I've first got to say I am NOT a fan of extreme modding and neon n all that crap (As you can tell from that), but damn that is a fine piece of computer!
I would even think about having that sat on my desk and in view of my friends which is a great acheivement, not only that with all that water cooling piping and the precision of it throughout the case it would be in the center of my living room as the main focus (For £5k it would have to be!)
As a small question, I know it says in the article that they are custom built by request but you don't happen to have one in your Sunderland store? Just I live in Durham and depending on what you can put them together for, as well as what finance options you do, I might have a wander over and see your stock as I'm in need of a new PC, want a really good one but prefer it on some form of finance and I really can't be bothered with building it lol, theres nothing worse that spending like £2k on a PC n having so much hassle.
As I'm to lazy to search and really tired as I've just got home from a 12 hour shift!!!... whats your website address.
Thanks alot,
M_Taylor40
Hi TR
I didn't join up to post negative comments, just to question the "ground breaking" claim, but it's good that you can put your side across here. I have been building my own WC systems for years and have never seen commercial systems blowing hot radiator air into a case.....
My point about the performance is quite straight forward - you have a supply of air to the radiators which is much less than the rad fans can expell so athough you claim it works well (and as you state I'm sure you tested it well) it is physically not efficient at all. You would need 2 x 100cfm fans pumping air into the chamber for the 4 x 120mm fans to work efficiantly on load, even at 80% on the radiator fans you'll need alot more than the 140mm fan/s can provide. If they don't get an ample supply of air they will simply move the air in the room around!
What I'm saying about the fans in your face is that in a system with rads mounted longitudinally you will (generally) have a window on one side and the air being blown out the other side - one side facing you and the other side facing away. Your way means that you'd have to position the case with the front (optical drives) facing away from you.
I get your point about the look of the interior but it was just the combination of blue cable braiding and pipe with black painted/power coated interior and coil wraps that I was talking about and btw you could buy the black coil wrap in the states years ago.
TBH I find your reply in gereral pretty sarcastic and after checking your forum to find that it is a system built for a customer and not really a new product that is reportedly innovative for the purpose of solving an existing problem which doesn't exist I think I'll stick to building my own
If you had the rad fans facing in the case and channeled the exhaust air out the top or rear of the case that would perform much better..........
Look at the image in his signature.
£5,470
and yet I'm still seeing jubilee clips and cable ties
For that amount of money I'd be expecting compression fittings.
As for the paraflow, it's good but then I see there's a DDC just behind it. Now thats pumping the loop through 3 rads the cpu, nb or mosfets or sb and the gpu blocks so I'm guessing its the 18w one. They get pretty hot so if the rads are taking all the cool air out before it reaches the DDC won't that overheat? They get pretty hot those things.
Also it would be better to see dual loops and dual pumps as having it all in one loop leads to higher temps for those components near the end of the loop (GPU's here).
Apart from that it looks good but I wouldn't get one even if I were a millionaire because I believe in performance/pound is better over looks
PS - You might want to contrast the noise level meter on your site a bit more (make the empty square darker I'd say).
Lol, thanks. As I said though I had just got home from work and was really tired lol.
I'm gonna go have a look at there stuff now lol.
Thanks again.
No probs
Hi guys,
I’ll start by saying that we have a lot of experience with water-cooling. We are here to share this knowledge and expertise which we have gained from our experience.
We went back to the drawing board for this chassis, We questioned every part of a water-cooling loop and how it’s radiators are se up in order to come up with something new.
You need to view this as a production chassis; not just a one off. This is the new basis for our high end systems as it allows for such expandability and extreme heat.
I realise that there is a lot of information, guides and so on about water-cooling. There is a lot of ark and hearsay and myths as old as the arc.
Water-cooling has been reaching a plateau for years now. Everyone knows that you cannot cool the water below the air temperature around it (without using further measures)
Our goal was to ensure that the air around and going through the radiator was the right air, the coolest air possible. Not air ‘tainted’ by the heat given off by components.
The other goal was to make sure that the warm air from the radiator was not fed into the case.
I know all of this sounds easy to do, just stick the radiator outside of the case; this is the best solution and probably always will be. But these computers are sold as a whole product and everything has to be done properly. Even sourcing the right type and size of bolts to hold the radiators in took weeks.
I feel like I have been over this too many times now, but you must grasp that this setup does not work like most loops. It is all about heat isolation; not allowing the heat to radiate anywhere else until it is taken to the radiators and dissipated. This is how the system works. When you take a step back and look at is in perspective the penny will drop.
The system works; there is no denying that. Our systems simply do not leave the workshop if they are not going to last 5 minutes. The system is tested for 3 days. Overclocks are tested using 4 instances of prime for a minimum of 24 hours. If a core drops, or instability is present the overclock is wiped and we start again until it passes. The systems are then real world games testing.
The cooling system keeps the computer cool, otherwise we just would not bother.
Thank you,
We try our best to make our systems look good.
All systems are hand built and are taken on by an individual builder from start to finish. That builder will be your point of contact for technical support should you need it.
Beasts take days to build, and days to test. We go to every length to present your BEAST as best as possible.
We do not have a showroom as such, but there is always something brewing in our workshop. It may be better for you to see the systems in a more down to earth setting than in a formal style show room. You are welcome to pop along for a chat, discuss options ( you don't have to have UV lights if you don't want to!) and play a few games.
As I said there's always something being built so perhaps call to ask the best time to see a system when it is nearing completion and entering it's second testing stage.
The point is that the first idea for a water-cooling loop usually (not always) makes use of a radiator which shares the same airflow as the rest of the case in some shape or form. This could be a radiator in the front of a case such as a typical PC-P80, or certain thermal take cases
The other option would be a top orback mounted radiator; cosmos S, Temjin TJ-07, Lian Li G70, and many many other cases.
That is where the flaw lies. Unless you mount the radiator outside of the case, you are either entering the hot air into the case, or sucking hot air through the radiator. A radiator can only be as hot as the water inside of it, and the water can only be as hot as the amount of heat it removes from the chips. You are essentially working against yourself by doing this.
We have built hundreds of water-cooled systems in many different cases. We know what works and what doesn’t; we have tried it all. We know how to effectively cool components not just by creating as many separate loops as possible and throwing as many radiators as you can at it; but cooling things efficiently.
We are trying to share some of our knowledge and experience here, We were not planning on arguing the finer points of cooling.
We are viewing this idea as a leap ahead because it has been a while since someone has come up with a genuinely new idea for water-cooling. Water-cooling has it's limits; we all know that. That is why we have tried to off-set these limits by targeting the heat dissipation, rather than designing water blocks and so on. We believe that it does not matter what radiator you use, from hardware labs to thermochill - If it is mounted in an in-effetive way you are loosing out big time.
We went at this to define a way to give the radiators the best fighting chance they have.
It is first of all worth noting that all the fans are fine tuned with the T-balancer.
Besides the T balancer doing it's job the para-flow radiators do not rely on the front fans to do their job. They can work quite well just by feeding from ‘fresh’ air alone. The front fan's do not have as much impact on the temperatures as you might think - but they do help.
It is better for the para-flow fans to be sucking air from an empty space, rather than excess air to be forced at them by, for example 2 x 100cfm fans. This is not efficient
The T balancer keeps the fans at about 50% most of the time during general use - semi stressful tasks. Some of the fans will kick in at around 60-70% during gaming or extremely intensive tasks.
The system really does keep things cool, you will have to see for yourself, or check out CPU3D's review of the system. It's because of this 'free air' setup that the radiators are kept as cool as possible. They expel the heat so quickly that they hardly get warm to the touch. I know this is all very hard to believe - but water-cooling has been stuck in it's old ways for so long now that a fresh idea is always hard to accept. We could go on forever discussing things on paper, but at the end of the day as TR has said - the results speak for themselves.
This is all because there is no heated air passing through the radiators. It's not like having a radiator in the top or back of a case where the only air that is being pushed through it is the heated air from inside.
Imagine how much the cooling would suffer if we blocked off the front of the case and took the chambers away - that is the difference between a regular cooling system and ours. It is extremely efficient.
We have all sat next to this system and gamed with it on the desk next to us, as have plenty of people who previewed the system at it's launch party. I can honestly say that the fans blowing in your face is not an issue. The fans hardly ever need to spin up that high for it to be a problem and the mesh defuses most of it anyway.What I'm saying about the fans in your face is that in a system with rads mounted longitudinally you will (generally) have a window on one side and the air being blown out the other side - one side facing you and the other side facing away. Your way means that you'd have to position the case with the front (optical drives) facing away from you.
I get your point about the look of the interior but it was just the combination of blue cable braiding and pipe with black painted/power coated interior and coil wraps that I was talking about and btw you could buy the black coil wrap in the states years ago.
TBH I find your reply in gereral pretty sarcastic and after checking your forum to find that it is a system built for a customer and not really a new product that is reportedly innovative for the purpose of solving an existing problem which doesn't exist I think I'll stick to building my own
If you had the rad fans facing in the case and channeled the exhaust air out the top or rear of the case that would perform much better..........
Yes, the system pictured is a typical customers system. This is the standard to which each of our systems are built If anything I would have thought that this would be a positive thing to see an actual customers system.
It is a new product; our customer was just the first person to get his hands on it. He chose it while it was still in development and was more than happy to wait.
The problem of a repeatable water-cooling chassis for a system builder like us does indeed exist - not anymore of course.
I can assure you that having the fans reversed and channelling the air elsewhere would not perform better and would be extremely inefficient. We have planned this carefully and it works.
The style of the interior of our cases has been happening for years. We have braided each cable for years and used black coils for years. As TR said; we make these coils ourselves. We always have made them because you could not buy them. We are aware that you can now buy black coils, but we still make our own. We find them easier to work with, and much more effective. You will also notice that they have a much more ‘bold’ or thicker look to them than others.
We are very aware that some people would prefer to build their own. We all used to build our own, and we build our customers Rigs like they are our own.
Some guys have the choice to select us toy build their systems for them, these guys normally lead busy working lives and simply do not have the time to put the time in to build their own. Our support and warranty is second to none also.
We believe our customer come to us because the want the best with the least hassle to them.
We have tested compression fittings, yes they do look nice but we have not found them to be reliable enough for our standards. We have found that it is easier to pull the tubing from them than it perhaps should be.
£5,470
and yet I'm still seeing jubilee clips and cable ties
For that amount of money I'd be expecting compression fittings.
We use jubilee clips as they are tried and tested - they work.
For that amount, our customers do not want to worry about their computer springing a leak.
You cannot see it on the photographs but there has been a vent cut specifically in the position of the DDC pump to aid it's cooling. A lot more thought has gone into this rig than people are giving us credit for.
Every effort has been taken to make the loop as un-restrictive as possible. We use large 15mm copper fittings (elbows, Tee's etc) in place for regular nylon fittings and the radiators have been noted to be quite free flowing.
Mosfets and the Southbridge are not water-cooled. Because the water-cooling does such a good job of removing the heat from the components and dealing with it in isolation; the temperatures in the air around the components stay low, and the air is moved on by a rear fan, set at a constant and the top 140mm fan set on the t-balancer.
I may add that a water-cooling loop is exactly that - a loop.
A loop has no start and no finish, therefore the common myth of water being cooler after it has came out for the radiator is not exactly true.
I do understand that there was recently a water-cooling guide published that explained this to be the case but it is simply not.
The water temperature from one point of a loop to another varies by a tiny amount. Reversing the loop so that the graphics cards were being fed straight from the pump would have little or no effect on the temperatures.
It's hard enough to take the 1/2" ID tubes off in the first place I'm sure that + compression fittings is sufficient. I'm guessing if a customer requested compression fittings they would be charged about £50 - £75 (not sure how many barbs you've got) right? So if I requested compression fittings for my build (theoretically) I'd get them free then right?
The forces required to pull them would break or bend the components (GPU's in this case) before it came off. Could just be the tubing you're using but I don't know of any tubing bigger than 1/2" ID for Watercooling especially (assuming those chunky tubes are 1/2" ID).
Can't give credit for what I can't see. You should blame Hexus (if there is an actual pic of this said vent and they decided not to put it in the article) or the guy who took or supplied the pictures
Hard to get the tubes on those buggers eh. Best way I did was line the inner tube or the outside ring of the copper endfeed with fairy liquid. Works wonders
So what temperature is the water after it passes through the radiator? If it's no cooler then hotter? Or no change? That would mean no heat has been transferred and what with the components dumping more heat into the water it'd keep increasing. Confused about that bit there care to elaborate?
Reversing the loop would have some consequences as the GPU is way hotter than the CPU idle and under load (lest you have a non powerful GPU as to which you shouldn't be watercooling it then) and passing the water through there would bring warmer water through the CPU and other components. Shouldn't a loop pass from lower heat sources to higher? (with CPU being priority though)
ie Rad->CPU->NB->GPU.
Lol, now that is what I call a post by BeastComputers!
I might just appear one weekday to see what you guys are upto and see what lovelyness your building!
I really like the one technician who personally builds up your computer and is your point of support, I work as a PC technician myself and have built a good few PCs (Including a £2.5k Asus Striker 2 Extreme based system with 2x GTX280's in SLI, damn I loved that so much, sadly don't get access to machines like that on a regular basis) and I fully understand the annoyance of having to speak to numerous different people and going over your problems everytime, so thats a good start!
Good to know the UV is optional, but for that price even if I didnt like it I'd have it installed lol!
I look forward to seeing you sometime soon (Well not you but mainly the computers themselves lol).
M_Taylor40
Okay,
It seems that the principal behind water cooling is not that easy to understand. I'm not surprised as there is more wrong information out there than there is genuine.
I'm going to try my best to explain to you how it works.
I don't want this to sound too harsh, I'm not having a go. It's just obvious that you perhaps have been mislead in terms of how water-cooling works. I mentioned before that there was recently a whole guide published and some of the points made us cringe.
As I said - I don't blame you for being mislead. Water-cooling has become far to commercial and most of this knowledge has been lost in translation; It's too easy these days.
We are going back to basics here guys, so hold on, read up and if you don't understand just ask.
Myth #1 loop order matters.
The order of the components in a water-cooling loop does not matter, this will become more clear in my next point. I've always considered it good practice to have the CPU block being fed directly by the pump. But I tend to go for the shortest tubing lengths and the easiest filling and bleeding set up. some systems can be made harder to fill than they really have to.
Myth #2 - Water temperature changes as it goes around the loop.
This is perhaps the hardest one to get your head around.
It seems perfectly logical to presume that the water goes through one block; heats up then goes through another block; heats up even more. goes through another block and heats up even more. It then goes through the radiator and cools down, providing the 'first' block with cool water
This has to be one of the most misunderstood thing about water-cooling loops. the above statement is so far from the truth that once you realise how it works the penny will drop.
you have to remember that the water does not stop moving. the water-flow is continuous and does not heat up and cool down. it stays at a constant. you have to keep the word 'constant' in your head all of the time. heat is constantly being dumped into the water from the components and heat is constantly being dissipated into the air by the radiator. the water constantly circulates the loop. everything is happening constantly.
The water temperature from the inlet to the outlet of a radiator is hardly measurable. this difference does increase as the flow rate decreases. but then the opposite is true for the water-blocks. They are adding head as 'quickly' as the radiator is taking it away. Because of the considerably high flow in a cooling loop the temperature differences throughout the loop from one 'end' to another are less than .5 degrees
What I am saying is the water moves too fast for there to be any temperature difference,, therefore it does not matter if the graphics cards are being fed before the CPU, or vice versa
If you find that hard to understand, use this analogy.
Turn both of the taps on. stick your hand under the hot tap for 10 seconds, then stick it under the cold tap fro 10 seconds, keep repeating this. the temperature of your hand will fluctuate greatly, but slowly.
Speed it up a little only put your hand under each tap for 5 seconds at a time. Your hands temperature will still fluctuate faster, but not as great a difference.
Speed it up again; one second under the hot tap then one second under the cool tap and so on and so forth. You can see how this fluctuation in temperature almost evens out to the point where the two taps feel the same temperature.
This is how water cooling works. the water flows fast. it does not spend enough time under the heat load for its temperature to fluctuate so dramatically
Please note, your hand does not spend 'less time' under the hot tap when you are changing it every second. It spends exactly the same amount of time as the first example ( 10 seconds) because your hand is moving 10 times as quick; I hope that makes sense.
With this in mind Your hand represents the collant in a system. the hot and cold water taps represent the water-blocks and radiators. the speed at which your hand moves represents the flow rate.
we don't want to dwell on this point, but we have tested (with varius tubing) it and we don't feel comfortable using these fittings in a customers system. I would consider it in my own system where I can keep an eye on it and monitor it all of the time but our systems are expected to last years. I'll have to be quite stubborn here and say that we still do not consider using compression fittings.It's hard enough to take the 1/2" ID tubes off in the first place I'm sure that + compression fittings is sufficient. I'm guessing if a customer requested compression fittings they would be charged about £50 - £75 (not sure how many barbs you've got) right? So if I requested compression fittings for my build (theoretically) I'd get them free then right?
The forces required to pull them would break or bend the components (GPU's in this case) before it came off. Could just be the tubing you're using but I don't know of any tubing bigger than 1/2" ID for Watercooling especially (assuming those chunky tubes are 1/2" ID).
No worries, just trying to make the point that there is tons going on that is not featured int he photo shoot. I guess it was deemed as not essential to photograph it.Can't give credit for what I can't see. You should blame Hexus (if there is an actual pic of this said vent and they decided not to put it in the article) or the guy who took or supplied the pictures
They are indeed a tight squeeze. Using detergent, you may find that it can come off as easily as it went on. therefore we only use hot water to fit them - It's hard but safe. good quality zip ties are used for added security, but they are hardly needed.Hard to get the tubes on those buggers eh. Best way I did was line the inner tube or the outside ring of the copper endfeed with fairy liquid. Works wonders
I hope this helps clear some more things up guys. I can go through some more stuff if needed. We really are enthusiasts you know, We just get to do our beloved hobby for a job and get to build things we could only ever dream of owning. It really is a labour of love for us, and as hopefully by now it has become apparent that a lot of thought has gone in to our latest rig.
Last edited by BeastComputers; 10-10-2008 at 12:39 AM.
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