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Thread: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    I do take issue with Steam's (and retail-bought games using Steam) policy on second-hand games - i.e. once it's registered once, you can't sell it on. It renders the resale value of the game worthless. I can't see how it benefits anyone. And I can almost see the rationale in having a different policy on downloads from Steam - possibly because it is a new delivery method from the established model (where one can sell on second-hand games) - but retail-bought games that require Steam have the same policy, which seems off to me.
    There are lots of gamers who will buy at full price. There is also a fair number of gamers who cannot or will not afford full price. Some of these will buy new a few months down the line when the price has dropped a bit, but that leaves a large number of people who would ordinarily buy second-hand but can't because it is 'disallowed', so don't play the game at all.

    You might say, "well, that doesn't affect the publishers because they wouldn't have got any money from the second-hand sale anyway", which is true in the short-term at least. But what it also means is that for games with online multiplayer, the number of people online is greatly lessened - when people stop playing their copy, they can no longer sell it on to people who would play it, so there are fewer copies being played in circulation - which may well lessen the online experience. Again, doesn't really affect the publisher directly - but because the game is less-enjoyable, gamers are less likely to buy a sequel. So indirectly, publishers lose out, for the sake of a few more short-term sales.

    Coming from a background where it's been commonplace to buy games, play them, and sell them on when bored, I also just plain disagree with the principle that you're spending more and more on new games (over the years), yet you're getting far less out of them in terms of resellability. And surely it's against some free market ideation that you can't sell on a product you've bought?

    It's totally different from piracy, for example, where you'd be making a copy of the game and having two or more people play the same game, where the publisher is suffering a much more real loss, as there is demand to play more copies at once than the publisher has sold.
    Last edited by miniyazz; 11-11-2010 at 01:38 PM.

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    I never understood why downloadable games cost more than hard copies, I mean surely the packaging, logistics and disks cost less than bandwidth? Oo

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Quote Originally Posted by miniyazz View Post
    I do take issue with Steam's (and retail-bought games using Steam) policy on second-hand games - i.e. once it's registered once, you can't sell it on. It renders the resale value of the game worthless. I can't see how it benefits anyone. There are lots of gamers who will buy at full price. There is also a fair number of gamers who cannot or will not afford full price. Some of these will buy new a few months down the line when the price has dropped a bit, but that leaves a large number of people who would ordinarily buy second-hand but can't because it is 'disallowed', so don't play the game at all.

    You might say, "well, that doesn't affect the publishers because they wouldn't have got any money from the second-hand sale anyway", which is true in the short-term at least. But what it also means is that for games with online multiplayer, the number of people online is greatly lessened - when people stop playing their copy, they can no longer sell it on to people who would play it, so there are fewer copies being played in circulation - which may well lessen the online experience. Again, doesn't really affect the publisher directly - but because the game is less-enjoyable, gamers are less likely to buy a sequel. So indirectly, publishers lose out, for the sake of a few more short-term sales.

    Coming from a background where it's been commonplace to buy games, play them, and sell them on when bored, I also just plain disagree with the principle that you're spending more and more on new games (over the years), yet you're getting far less out of them in terms of resellability. And surely it's against some free market ideation that you can't sell on a product you've bought?

    It's totally different from piracy, for example, where you'd be making a copy of the game and having two or more people play the same game, where the publisher is suffering a much more real loss, as there is demand to play more copies at once than the publisher has sold.
    But what if someone managed to get access to your account and sold all your games? I could imagine a very strong virus being written if Steam did allow reselling..

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    I'm not a Steam fan. I've got issues about the nature of the service that mean I've never used it, and probably never will do.


    But ......

    .... (and that's a rather big "but") ..... just because I don't like Steam doesn't mean I can't see why a lot of people do like it, or chose to use it, or that I think it shouldn't be available.

    It seems to me that the retailers objecting to Steam are in rather the same boat as turkeys objecting to Christmas, or to agricultural blacksmiths objecting to the introduction of combustion-engined tractors.

    Retailers, the online model is here to stay, whether you like it or not. And, sadly from my perspective, it's probably (and by that I mean almost certainly) the writing on the wall. Better get used to it, adapt to it and revise your business model, or you're going to end up sitting next to those agricultural blacksmiths in the dole queue.

    Besides, if you force customers to chose, they may chose online and you lose them completely.

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    I don't like steam and have always bought boxed games (which are generally cheaper too for new releases) on the grounds it could not be taken away from you, however I have been forced to get a steam account for two games, civ5 and Fallout NV. Where the installer is just a cache for steam files. I can understand why retailers would be upset about this, as a customer I am upset about this as I have to use steam for them (I don't quite take the hard line that Saracen takes with steam). From a retailer point of view their customers are being forced to sign up with another retailer to use the product, this retailer then bombards them with adverts, potentially taking sales away. Then there is also the right to sell on you product which has been removed with steam activation (though I have never sold on any game). Now I might be inclined to use steam more if I could register my old keys for games, rather than having to buy through them.
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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Quote Originally Posted by matty-hodgson View Post
    But what if someone managed to get access to your account and sold all your games? I could imagine a very strong virus being written if Steam did allow reselling..
    I understand your point, but it wouldn't be that hard to implement safeguards preventing that possibility. And it's not even so much the download-on-demand gaming model (prevention of selling-on) that I object to, as much as the "hi, I bought this disk from Game for CoD MW2 and don't like it so i want to sell it on, but because I already used the activation code to try it out i can't".

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    The retail crowd has been actively involved in crushing PC gaming (only promoting consoles, whittling down the choice of PC games to anything from 1 shelf stack to none at all, refusing to honour consumer refund rights, free-riding off the 2nd hand market, etc). And now that publishers are using an additional distribution model which is fairer all round, they throw their rattlers out of the pram? The neck of them.
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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Re: Selling games on and cost of steam games (last 3 comments)

    I think the problems are linked. I understand exactly why they don't want the games sold on, they want paying for each copy in existence. Fair enough really. It may not work out as neatly for users in the past where you could swap or lend games with your friends to try others out there but it wouldn't matter so much if the prices were lower. Players could just buy more games at the lower prices.

    Steam would also be an ideal environment if they did want to allow re-selling (delete copy from user account A, add to user account B, keeping commission for them and the maker...), only it would be easier for them to sell you a new copy in the first place (the copy would come from them anyway, not from the seller's computer) so why would they? Also, the security issues raised re: hacked accounts would just make it a big headache for steam and users.

    What irks me about steam is, despite this digital distribution system and all the perks it should entail, is the fact that I can buy most games in hard copy for less than the cost of the game in Steam.
    (examples that spring to mind are Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas etc.). Through Steam they usually cost around £5 more than delivered, cannot be resold, have issues with steam servers going down... The only advantage in that sense is the managed updates and the lack of boxes you don't want any more when you're done with the game. If like me you actually LIKE the collectors editions, that isn't even a positive.

    What I'd really like to see is lower prices on steam that are at least comparable to the cheapest legit shop price, if not a fraction less. Where steam excellsis with all the mini-games and indie-games that didn't get much (if any) of a retail release in the first place.




    PS. What I'd really like to see is a "Steam for Movies". I have literally hundreds of DVDs and all they do is take up space. Much like my CD collection is ripped to my hard-drive as I'm too lazy to change the CD's all the time and like the mix, Steam or similar could manage my film collection for me. Quite happy to pay (again, the equivalent legitimate minimum price to buy the DVD - it shouldn't be more expensive) for the film but I want to be able to "own" it in digital form, not have to pay £4 to rent it for a night digitally! They can pay all the rights-holders and I can enjiy my films without having to buy extra sets of shelves every year.

    I also like the idea of "updates". Own the DVD version? a smaller extra fee to upgrade to the extended edition...or to the HD version... or again to the 3D version. These days I hate it when a DVD comes out. I want it but I know I'll have to wait to get the complete version/box set or they expect you to buy the same film 5 times (think LOTR - EE, then box set, then EE box set and millions of variations in bewteen). Just upgrading the copy I have as the newer versions became availbale would be brilliant.

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    The retail crowd has been actively involved in crushing PC gaming (only promoting consoles, whittling down the choice of PC games to anything from 1 shelf stack to none at all, refusing to honour consumer refund rights, free-riding off the 2nd hand market, etc).
    My experience of retailers is they stock what sells. They have to pay for products they stock, so although they can return it for a refund capital is tied up in the stock. The problem is steam is are they a distributor or a retailer, generally it is considered bad form for distributors to also be retailers, when they are they are normally tied to selling product at the recommended retail price for a while on release.
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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Quote Originally Posted by oolon View Post
    My experience of retailers is they stock what sells.
    Nothing will have a chance of being sold if it isn't stocked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post
    ...every time Creative bring out a new card range their advertising makes it sound like they have discovered a way to insert a thousand Chuck Norris super dwarfs in your ears...

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    I can't see that anyone's mentioned what I think is likely to be the no.1 reason why it's lunacy to suggest publishers would even consider abandoning steam for retailers :

    Steam is a form of DRM that [most] PC gamers seem to accept without complaining [too much] about.

    I'm not interested in torrents or piracy so apologies if I've misunderstood, but I still thought Steam copies need to dial home to be useful and that you can't patch a steam copy to work without steam. I assume that's still the case given the comments above about an offline mode, though I suppose there may be the equivalent of no CD patches??

    Assuming I've understood correctly though and Steam is effective as an anti-piracy measure, surely the publishers must absolutely love it?

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Quote Originally Posted by miniyazz View Post
    There are lots of gamers who will buy at full price. There is also a fair number of gamers who cannot or will not afford full price. Some of these will buy new a few months down the line when the price has dropped a bit, but that leaves a large number of people who would ordinarily buy second-hand but can't because it is 'disallowed', so don't play the game at all.
    To be fair, the price of games on Steam has almost matched second hand prices down the line anyway in my experience. We've had the likes of Mass Effect, Grid etc. for a few quid each - it's not just indie titles that get knock down prices after a while on Steam.

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Retailers need to wake up and smell reality, they already make more per copy than everyone else in the entire product chain, and all they do is plop it on a shelf.

    Personally, I think the games industry has supported retailers far too long, it's about time their slice of the cake were cut.

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Title of the article should be 'retailers threaten to throw toys out of pram, piss on own chips'.

    Games are splitting more and more into cheapie £4.99 (or less) casual games sold online and huge blockbusters that tesco, amazon and the like will shift at cost or as loss-leaders to drag in more punters. Those marquee games are becoming ever more DRM-crusted and ever more dependent on huge launch-day downloads to gaffer-tape gaping flaws in development and playtesting.

    Publishers don't want to maintain tons of expensive DRM and download infrastructure themselves, and even if they did they don't have enough clues between them to build something as good as steam, or even as good as the festering ***pile that is GFWL. They certainly aren't going to change their delivery strategy because of a bunch of tinpot shops that encourage secondary trading and probably sell fewer new games collectively than play.com or Amazon shift on their own.

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    When Steam is used by publishers as a middleman for the actual playing of the game it becomes a rather effective method of preventing piracy on the PC. Its pretty non-intrusive on the whole too as if doesn't limit you to a number of installs or any of that balls.

    Yes you can still pirate steam games however i imagine the % are very appealing to publishers.

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    Re: News - Retailers may boycott videogames if publishers continue to use Steam

    Personally I do not think the power resides with "the bricks & Mortar retailers" at all.
    Last time I bought a game, hard copy, was when I'd found that installing would place it into my steam directory anyway...so used it as an opportunity to pay £20 for a new game instead of the rrp/steam value of £29.99.
    Go into a shop and browse what exactly? 5 'top' titles, all well over priced, and a case of 2 for £15's that are still over priced in that bracket!

    Online purchases (hard copies) and steam...Personally I prefer to have games in Steam due to auto patching, re-installation (I like to periodically perform a clean install of windows...so copying the whole steam folder and running the small install means a very quick refresh of all games), no more 'find the DVD' hunts, their sales/specials are good.....and probably a bunch more reasons I cannot think of right now.

    So where do 'the bricks & Mortar retailers' go when/if GFWL starts to offer full download options and they start losing Xbox game sales?

    It's been said already...shops didn't/don't fully support PC gaming (because of re-sale/key-code issues I'm sure)...when did you ever see a pc in-store showing what it could do?....so why should we support them. Digital distribution has to be the plan for most to keep control and maximise profit so retailers best change their game plan or be left with a very small market share as their 'console'ation (see what I did there...muhaahaa )

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