News - Microsoft’s Ballmer goes toe-to-toe with Chinese President over piracy

[crossy]

snootyjim: "So what you're saying is that Windows is overpriced, and any more than free is overpriced. I don't think that business model is going to work too well."
I don't know, it's working out pretty well for Canonical and Red Hat.

I wouldn't argue that Windows should be free, but certainly a reduction in price wouldn't hurt, especially when they practically give it away to the big OEMs.

Canonical and, to a lesser extent Red Hat, make most of their money from services - software support, training, etc. That said, last time I looked (wanted to boost my RHCSA certification to include RHEL6) RHEL wasn't cheap - about the same price as Windows Server.

+1 on the OEM pricing - I managed to "score" a copy of MS Office Pro+ on the Home Usage Program (HUP) recently and the difference in price betwixt HUP and retail (even online) is frightening. So I shudder to think how few pence it's costing Dell, Acer, HP et al to bundle W7HP with their kit. Certainly goes some way to explain why Linux hasn't made more in-roads than it has.

This is exactly it. 1000 yuan is more than a month's wages for the average worker and as a business it just wouldn't make sense to have to spend more than a month's wages just to set up an OS for an employee's computer. Microsoft can either suck it up and continue like this, or they will have to reduce prices if they want to reduce piracy in China. There is little the government can, or will want, to do until that happens.

Sensible posting - although I thought that MS charged different pricing in each country, depending on local conditions. Certainly I've seen many postings around the news sites that Win7 is cheaper in the US than the EU. From what's being said here that appears not to be the case.

Nope, I'm saying charging 100 pounds for a home edition. isn't, I paid 50 pounds for my pc from the recorder price and 30 pound studen price for my laptop and I am happy with that price, but for double that I probably would not have not bought it twice, let alone once

As others have pointed out, the launch pricing on Win7 was very attractive - heck, I bought a copy of Win7Pro at the time and didn't install it until last month, more than a year after I bought it!

Since we're talking about Window pricing on this thread, has anyone been looking at the pricing changes recently? I bought a "full" copy of Win7HP last month (9th December) and it cost me £89 from Amazon. Today, from the same vendor, that software is now £115 - nearly a 30% increase in the space of a month. Now okay, you'd expect some heavy discounting around Christmas, and we've had the VAT increase since, but even so - I find the upswing quite inexplicable!

[TheAnimus]

If I could get steam on linux with all my games then I would. Linux is a far better built OS, performance, stability and customisation wise and its free! Being open source it also tends to be more innovative. Microsoft have the monopoly that is Directx. The sooner game devs move to opengl the better.

The thing is, people when pirating have the option of all the different OS's out there, why aren't more choosing linux?

There is one main thing I find linux does better than windows for the home user, and that is manage installed user mode programs. The modern package manager is much better than the dpkg that once decided to nock my server offline by removing all of the required libs for sshd back in 2004.

Windows doesn't have anything that comes close, even if you only use MS Office and IE, your still going to have adobe flash/pdf cropping up.

But windows is also a lot better at patching the core OS without the feckup fairy coming for a visit, when you consider all the hardware variations that are going on, all the virus scanners which are doing frankly pervse things, redirecting int2e, hooking the ntdll dispatch table etc. Its rare something goes wrong.

Without going off on a rant, I do find it quite funny when people spout all this crap about linux been superior, for my line of work it has never been able to demonstrate this, its always been a poor man's copy of a very out of date design of an OS, the kernel is just horrid and writing device drivers a comparitable nightmare. Don't get me wrong, as a software architect there are things that make me dispare and just loose the will to ever dev on Microsoft, but on the whole they have a very good platform.

The fact that you then say directx is hard to replicate because its closed source shows just how little understanding you have of designing such a hardware layer. It is a very well documented set of APIs, how the black box works inside shouldn't be needed because you know what all the inputs and outputs need to be. Given how massively different the model for WDDM it is ultimately this that is the biggest stumbling block for anyone wishing to implement it on another platform, they have taken some lengths and some utter horrible decisions to minimise the IOCTRLs.

So, why are the chinese citizens choosing to break the law, rather than use a free alternative? Surely a boost in user base and revenue would be better for the <insert favourate OS here> rather than MS keeping market share?

[TheAnimus]

The question wasn't whether they turn over billions in profits, but whether the business model is feasible.

Yes and No.

It has to be 'more' feasible, that is the key I would say. All public traded firms have a duty to their shareholders to keep the company in the most profitable manner. One could argue the current model is short sighted but in all honesty I think there is moral hazard with charging support. The classic example is my mum (note this does not apply to my Dad, he isn't allowed on mum's PC for reasons of a different rant).

My mum has a cheapo laptop I bought her, it was one of the cheapest decent spec machines I could buy the same day in Cornwall as I needed to set it up for her before going home. Turns out Argos are the least raping high street retailer and she has a 64bit VAIO thing that cost £400 a year and a bit ago.

It runs windows 7, and she hasn't needed any support ever, because I set it all up for her, cleared the pre-installed crap out.

So charging for support would be a waste of money, for viewing lolcats, playing spider, emails and such she just doesn't need any support. Ok she isn't a power user but its typical of 80%+ of home users?

Now if your business model relies on selling such support contracts you either end up doing a dixons and selling after-care support packages on the digital camera which are worthless/overpriced imho, or you end up not been correctly incentivised to make the OS bug free. That latter part is the worry.

For most home users they shouldn't begin to need a support contract, the same way that hardware should damn well last three years without worry (I'm looking at you Dell Apple etc selling the extra year care packages!).

What would be more use to them is some kind of interactive HOWTO type thing, but why get that from your OS provider.

[Nelsaidi]

A long and hard to read post I've cut short:

Linux isnt easy to use (yet), has a steep learning curve for the noob user and trouble shooting it without a pHd in linux is difficult, clean installs (2 of them) of ubuntu adding two grub enteries every time it updates, scripting knowledge needed to make wirless work even after a reinstall and a few hours of searching googleing.

Alot of sotware which is only available for windows wont run correctly under linux, some are needed for education and job, but wont necesarily work.

Mixed opinions on how good linux is, but it is a fact that it isnt for everyone, and that is why people choose to pirate windows over linux, and other people probably dont even know what linux is.

[MSIC]

A long and hard to read post I've cut short:

Linux isnt easy to use (yet), has a steep learning curve for the noob user and trouble shooting it without a pHd in linux is difficult, clean installs (2 of them) of ubuntu adding two grub enteries every time it updates, scripting knowledge needed to make wirless work even after a reinstall and a few hours of searching googleing.

Alot of sotware which is only available for windows wont run correctly under linux, some are needed for education and job, but wont necesarily work.

Mixed opinions on how good linux is, but it is a fact that it isnt for everyone, and that is why people choose to pirate windows over linux, and other people probably dont even know what linux is.

I think that's a little unfair to be honest, and i'm speaking as a Linux user and non-IT professional.
However this isn't a Linux vs Windows debate, so let's keep things on topic!

[Astridax93]

Yes Windows is a more complete system granted. But that is only because it has had billions and billions of dollars behind it. If Linux could garner some support, and somebody make a simple to use version, granted even Ubuntu can be a bitch to get configured, they might have a winning combination on their hands!

[jim]

When I tried out Ubuntu a few months ago I found it so user-friendly it was annoying. Really seemed as though it was designed with idiots in mind.

I can't see any good reason why more people couldn't use it.

[aidanjt]

When I tried out Ubuntu a few months ago I found it so user-friendly it was annoying. Really seemed as though it was designed with idiots in mind.

Indeed, if you can't figure out how to use Ubuntu, you should probably contact your doctor as you may in fact be clinically brain dead.

I can't see any good reason why more people couldn't use it.

Gaming. Or at least that's the only thing which has me keep a Windows installation around. Wine does a great job of running windows binaries, but it still has large portions of the winapi incomplete, and much of the existing code has bugs (or indeed has bugs missing), as software does, so few games run completely bug free, or at least bug compatible. If virtualised 3D graphics improve sufficiently, I'll probably go for that instead, I hate having to reboot between OSes.

There's also all kinds of disinformation about Linux, and general anxiety with using something unfamiliar. It's outside their 'safe' zone, and baser instincts kick in.

[jim]

Gaming.

True. I have to admit, I was really thinking about "Aunty Molly" and all the other stereotypes of your average PC consumer when I made that statement, as opposed to the far rarer PC gamers.

If Chrome OS takes off in any way, it will just go to prove that people don't need or want Windows. My dad is a perfect example - he's an ex-mainframe programmer, so fairly adept with PCs. Yet, his computer is used for Gmail, eBay, photo storage, and nothing else.

Ubuntu in its current form would fit the bill perfectly.

[Astridax93]

Yes. I can't wait for there to be an alternative to windows. Compiz windows are sooo nice XD! Besides, I could wave good bye to having to update every program/driver etc individually....

Damn wine, somebody put some money behind it. I can't really understand how The Animus is correct. If the winapi and directx api's are so well documented how come it hasn't been remade so to speak, by people at wine. My guess is similar to when you publish a library in dll format. The programmer can pass values to the functions, knowing their inputs and outputs. Knowing how they work and they processes behind them is another thing. Just because I use the .push() function in AS3 doesn't mean I know the code that makes it. I can guess how it works, and probably have a fair decent go at coding it, since Pushing onto an array is a well documented and understood algorithm. However if they had something special inside that class function, I would have no idea. Only until my implementation doesn't work with somebody else's code would I know I am missing a feature. Imagine this, but instead of a simple problem, it is a function to setup a driectx window.

So really until microsoft decide to release directx and winapi source code... Wine will have a hell of a job guessing as to how to implement microsoft functions. You can only guess so much. That's why emulation of consoles can take an age to become stable, cause a lot of it is guesswork from inputs and outputs.

If this doesn't make coherent sense or is punctuated badly, accept I am tired after an exam, it is late and I have another one on Wednesday .

[aidanjt]

True. I have to admit, I was really thinking about "Aunty Molly" and all the other stereotypes of your average PC consumer when I made that statement, as opposed to the far rarer PC gamers.

If Chrome OS takes off in any way, it will just go to prove that people don't need or want Windows. My dad is a perfect example - he's an ex-mainframe programmer, so fairly adept with PCs. Yet, his computer is used for Gmail, eBay, photo storage, and nothing else.

Ubuntu in its current form would fit the bill perfectly.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I started my Uncle with computing on OpenSUSE 10.3 when I knocked together a spare-parts rig for him, which went great for a few years, and built another spare-parts machine, this time with Ubuntu, since KDE3.5 was dead, things went great. This year he treated himself to a new laptop, he hasn't had it a fortnight and Windows 7 is already loaded up with viruses. So yeah, dear ole granny can easily get to grips with the likes of Ubuntu.

[crossy]

But windows is also a lot better at patching the core OS without the feckup fairy coming for a visit, when you consider all the hardware variations that are going on, all the virus scanners which are doing frankly pervse things, redirecting int2e, hooking the ntdll dispatch table etc. Its rare something goes wrong.

Funny you should say that - I've had the opposite experience, when Linux update screws up (which thankfully is very rare) because it's not that interconnected you can usually backout relatively easily. OTOH, if a Windows-based update (based on desktop OS use only) screws up then it can easy render your machine unbootable - I had that happen two weeks ago with my new Windows7Pro install when an Asus-supplied chipset update did something horrible (couldn't even get a Windows "booting" prompt - it just hung).

Without going off on a rant, I do find it quite funny when people spout all this crap about linux been superior, for my line of work it has never been able to demonstrate this, its always been a poor man's copy of a very out of date design of an OS, the kernel is just horrid and writing device drivers a comparitable nightmare.

Granted there's a lot of cruft in there - but then again the kernel devs are cleaning it up at a respectable rate. I'll be the first to admit it's far from perfect, but for a lot of apps it's just an easier fit - especially if you're talking about headless servers a couple of hundred miles away. That said, I have as little respect for the "if you're not using Linux then you're an a-hole" bunch as I do for the "all hail Windows - the worlds best OS family" mutants - there's plenty of space/uses for both. Oh, and I remind you that Windows Server/7 were described as "Windows NT with minor tweaks and a nice GUI" by a very cynical commentator in the US.

The fact that you then say directx is hard to replicate because its closed source shows just how little understanding you have of designing such a hardware layer. It is a very well documented set of APIs, how the black box works inside shouldn't be needed because you know what all the inputs and outputs need to be.

Original poster is maybe thinking of the oft-quoted assertion that there's a lot of DirectX that's either undocumented or actually works slightly differently from the "as described". Not developing with DX I can't comment either way.

Linux isnt easy to use (yet), has a steep learning curve for the noob user and trouble shooting it without a pHd in linux is difficult, clean installs (2 of them) of ubuntu adding two grub enteries every time it updates, scripting knowledge needed to make wirless work even after a reinstall and a few hours of searching googleing.

Troubleshooting ANY misbehaving OS is hard - whether it's Linux, Windows, or MacOS - it's a truism that if an OS goes bang then you're probably in for some pain.
Wireless+Linux, yes that's still not nice, although it's getting far better. E.g. the last five installs I did (three laptops and two netbooks) the wireless card was recognised and I just used NetworkManager to setup the SID, WPA2 key etc and I was in business - simples! (Three different versions of Ubuntu plus one Meego and one OpenSuse install if you're interested). Yes, the grub thing in Ubuntu can be annoying - but two minutes with an editor and it's back to tidy - Ubuntu does this to give you a fallback position if the latest OS install barfs. There may even be a GUI for doing that.
Linux isn't easy to use (yet)?, may I refer you to our esteemed Hexus colleague aidanjt

Indeed, if you can't figure out how to use Ubuntu, you should probably contact your doctor as you may in fact be clinically brain dead.

(This made me laugh - perhaps Cannonical should employ aidanjt as their PR bod?) My nine year old daughter has NO problems using Ubuntu (she chose it over Windows after seeing both). Okay I do the admin stuff, but that's because I've got root access, she doesn't. Oh, and her last build (she's changed distros twice) she did herself with me sitting by for advice.

Getting back to the original article - did Ballmer just berate the PM, or were they actually suggesting some concrete measures? And besides, I thought this "activation" nonsense was supposed to prevent piracy? (hurriedly getting back on topic!)

[miniyazz]

As is the revenue, which they'd get more of if they stopped trying to swim against the rapids, and waste less dev man hours to boot.

They wouldn't, though. They'd get a relatively small amount more units sold, but because it's so ubiquitous (and Microsoft's own data suggests only around a third of Windows installs are pirated), they really wouldn't gain much by dropping the price. Dropping the price by a half or even 3/4 isn't going to increase their user base by 50%, so their revenue would drop. And how would they waste less dev man hours?

I understand that windows.isn't impulse buy. It was to proove a point that you don't need to charge huge amounts to make money. I however fail to see how microsoft get away with charging double the amount for the retail version over oem, which is already too expensive. Linux is free and yet more stable, with less bugs in the kernel. I'd rather have a free OS and pay for boxes/support if I needed it.

OK, but game developers can bring out several games a year, all charging that lower price for, and although I don't know, I would be surprised if the development costs for all of them put together equate to the costs of developing and maintaining Windows. Once customers have bought Windows, they don't pay for it again - not until the next version at least (with associated costs), which is several years down the line. Granted, they do have a larger user base, which will go a long way to compensating for that. A quick Google suggests that as of June last year, COD:MW2 had sold 20 million copies while Windows 7 had sold ~180 million. Now a look at Activision's release calendar suggests they released five new games in Q4 of 2010 alone, and while I don't expect many games to reach COD's popularity, a quick extrapolation suggests that they've released over 20 games since Windows 7 was released - so if the average game popularity is even half that of COD:MW2, the units sold by Activision will exceed those sold by Windows.
Given that a fair proportion of those Windows sales will be either pre-order or student at <£50, while the majority of games will be sold at >£30 (COD:MW2 is still £40 from Steam), there's a significant but not massive difference in revenue, despite hugely higher maintenance costs for Windows (disregarding development costs for the moment).

Regarding retail vs oem, simple - manufacturers selling a computer to joe bloggs only need a licence that'll last the computer. He's not going to upgrade the computer and keep the OS. By the time he upgrades there'll probably be a new one out. So a discounted version for those who'll only use it once - or rather, a more expensive version for those who are willing to pay to use their copy of Windows on more than one motherboard when upgrade time comes. Makes business sense, although it is a bit on the cheeky side from any other point of view.

Sorry for the slight ramble.

[chis]

£80 per basic home copy, and £100+ for a business copy (for W7 Pro) is too much IMHO.

Please tell me where you're getting those prices. I am seeing £115 nearly everywhere, currently, for Windows 7 Home Premium Retail. To think I got two of them on pre-order for £45 each, I should have bought another! Oh, MS, you have some good products but you are greedy sods! I'd pay £115 for another retail copy of Win 7 Pro, but certainly not the best part of £200!

[miniyazz]

Please tell me where you're getting those prices. I am seeing £115 nearly everywhere, currently, for Windows 7 Home Premium Retail. To think I got two of them on pre-order for £45 each, I should have bought another! Oh, MS, you have some good products but you are greedy sods! I'd pay £115 for another retail copy of Win 7 Pro, but certainly not the best part of £200!

I presumed he meant those were OEM prices. Win7 Pro Retail looks to be roughly £170 (£110-115 OEM); interestingly Ultimate Retail is only a tenner more than Pro.

[aidanjt]

They wouldn't, though. They'd get a relatively small amount more units sold, but because it's so ubiquitous (and Microsoft's own data suggests only around a third of Windows installs are pirated), they really wouldn't gain much by dropping the price. Dropping the price by a half or even 3/4 isn't going to increase their user base by 50%, so their revenue would drop.

Perhaps their revenue would drop, perhaps it will expand. Either way, Windows sales is the furthest thing from their cash cow (ya know, the way they give it away to big OEMs), and them having more legitimate users can only be a good thing as it's the scale of the Windows platform itself which makes them the big bucks, not the Windows OS.

And how would they waste less dev man hours?

By not wasting brain power on creating and maintaining futile DRM schemes which only works superficially.