News - Microsoft bringing ribbon interface to Windows 8 Explorer

[crossy]

I, myself, can safely say I don't know half of the standard keyboard hotkeys. I've only bothered memorising the ones which I'd have use for more than 0.1% of the time. And that's even true of my Vim usage. And I consider myself quite a proficient power user.

That's one of the reasons that I favour vi over Emacs, (the other being that you can guarantee that vi will be on any *nix system I've come across, can't say that for Emacs), you can remember enough to get by pretty easily.

I've tried explaining the virtues of Ctrl+'X' to my ole man for things like copying/moving files and text, but it doesn't stick, he always reverts to mouse/gui interaction, and that's true of most users I deal with.

Had the same conversation, but once it's pointed out that the main shortcuts are pretty mnemonic we were off and running: shift+cursor = I want to shift/move this text; ^C = copy; ^X=cut out (equivalent of crossing out text on paper); ^V does kind of look like an arrow. Here's a thought - that it makes a big difference what you're actually doing: so using buttons rather than keyboard shortcuts probably makes sense if you're using Photoshop/Visio (when you're using the mouse anyway), but it's the opposite (keyboard better than buttons) if you're using Word/Excel (when you're already using the keyboard).

But weren't we all supposed to be using mouse/tablet gestures instead of "old-fashioned" buttons/menus anyway by this point?

I had a try of the pen+tablet support in Win7Pro and it's actually far better than I thought it would be - certainly good enough to use for extended periods, (even with the el cheapo Wacom Graphire that I've got), although there's still some usage that I find a mouse much more comfortable for - mainly because I feel that the tablet needs too much "precision" to be entirely comfortable.

[TheAnimus]

But still OS's should be flexible enough so they can cater for professionals too.

Thats why if you double click the ribbon it collapses to take up considerably less space than a file menu + rebar style toolbar.

Just a thought!

[dangel]

Thats pretty shocking. I guess OS's need to be more intuitive and having one click access to a big button saying COPY does help some people.. But still OS's should be flexible enough so they can cater for professionals too.

I work with plenty of people who click start, computer etc to open explorer. I see it all the time and not just in the workplace. Keyboard shortcuts are used by very few comparatively.

[scaryjim]

I work with plenty of people who click start, computer etc to open explorer.

I do that and I'm a developer* - is there a "better" way to open it?

I know plenty of people who have learned to operate a computer with a mouse and will do *everything* they possibly can with the mouse, eschewing keyboard shortcuts whenever possible. it all depends on what you grew up with / developed with. I spent a lot of time working in text editors in the early to mid 90s and didn't have the choice of using the mouse for the vast majority of that time. Anyone my age who only really started using computers when they went to uni, however, will have grown up on a mouse-based interface and will prefer to use that. Also, people think of the mouse as being easier to use than the keyboard, so they feel more comfortable with it. And people don't like to have to remember anything, so having to remember three or four keyboard shortcuts feel like too much effort.

Remember, when it comes to computers *everyone's* an idiot...

[cameronlite]

I do that and I'm a developer* - is there a "better" way to open it?

Yes, the Windows key + E will open Windows Explorer.

[crossy]

Yes, the Windows key + E will open Windows Explorer.

Hmm, anyone know if there's a way to get some prompting of these kind of nice shortcuts? I'm sure I saw something that Win7 could pop these up on a tooltip - but my install ain't doing this "out of the box".

If my memory's mistaken, then that'd be a nice addition for Windows8.

[cameronlite]

Hmm, anyone know if there's a way to get some prompting of these kind of nice shortcuts?

I think there's a patch you can get which involves a great deal of post-it notes

[baius]

I've found that the Windows Interface has been progressively "simplified" throughout each version.

Simplification is one thing, but disabling/discouraging power-user customisation is another.

I was so horrified that the Explorer interfaces for Vista and 7 didn't have Cut, Copy and Paste as shortcuts, that I used an Add-On (Classic Explorer Shell) to re-enable them.

I don't mind if this functionality is left off by default, but I have - unfortunately - not found any way (without this or a similar addon) to get this functionality.

Not as necessary, but still useful, I used Classic Shell to add:

• Delete
• Properties
• Copy To
• Move To,
• Classic Shell Settings, ALA XP's "Customise/Customize"

Whilst I'm at it, I used Classic Shell to chang File Copy boxes back to how they used to be, because they seemed more logical to me before.

Oh, and I changed Start Menu, too. I still have the standard Start Menu, but if I Shift+Click or Shift+Windows Key then I can have XP-style Program Menus; which break-out when you goto a sub-menu/list.


Office is culpable, too. Add In Tools has a useful product that takes up a "slide" on the ribbon, enabling you to use the menus - I use this for when the ribbon is to, uh, frilly, and I can't locate the function I'm after.

On the latter, I do admit that I use the "Menus" less and less - because I have got to know the ribbon better, and because I attempt to know as many shortucts as I can.

• IE Alt -> T -> W in Word.

[cameronlite]

I was so horrified that the Explorer interfaces for Vista and 7 didn't have Cut, Copy and Paste as shortcuts

Er... When did somebody remove the cut, copy and paste shortcuts that I use in explorer on a daily basis?

[goatmonkey]

Just looks like there is too much going on guess I have got too used to chromes minimalistic interface

[dangel]

Hmm, anyone know if there's a way to get some prompting of these kind of nice shortcuts? I'm sure I saw something that Win7 could pop these up on a tooltip - but my install ain't doing this "out of the box"..

Well, you could do what 99.9% of all humans don't do - and read the online help. The help in Windows is excellent (I only wish our own software's help was half as good).

[crossy]

Well, you could do what 99.9% of all humans don't do - and read the online help. The help in Windows is excellent (I only wish our own software's help was half as good).

I know what you mean - I've shouted "RTFH" at more than one person.

What worries me is that the "power" users are getting ignored - so the focus is wholly on attractive looking (debatable) GUI dressing.

No, what I was getting at in my posting was a ribbon-version of the way that apps work. You start out using the menu, looking for the desired feature (e.g. Paste). You find that and next to it is "Ctrl-V" - the keyboard shortcut. After a while, most folks using that feature often will find the shortcut quicker, and so the reminder works.

With respect, saying "well you can look up the shortcut in the online help" isn't the same - it's a separate task, whereas the tooltip version is something you can access while trying to do whatever it is. And no, I'm not promoting a return to Clippy - "you can get that faster by using Control-V", (although I found the animated Office Assistants quite amusing).

I share your dismay with the level of own-company support - I'm currently hacking my way through some HP/UX documentation, and I find it poorer than the (IBM) AIX equivalents. :'(

[dangel]

I know what you mean - I've shouted "RTFH" at more than one person.

What worries me is that the "power" users are getting ignored - so the focus is wholly on attractive looking (debatable) GUI dressing.

Thing is, that's just not happened - the shiny GUI stuff serves a functional purpose versus the quagmire of menus that riddled office and was impenetrable to all but those who'd spend years slogging through them. The hotkeys haven't moved away and many of the features are now far more powerful - the ribbon switches contexts and you get real-time previews of changes for example. Dig deep (just like you had to beforehand) and everything you need is there. Witness how many didn't know the ribbon could minimize and complained about it using too much space. Power users are just as vulnerable to being 'embedded' in their ways as anyone else sadly.

No, what I was getting at in my posting was a ribbon-version of the way that apps work. You start out using the menu, looking for the desired feature (e.g. Paste). You find that and next to it is "Ctrl-V" - the keyboard shortcut. After a while, most folks using that feature often will find the shortcut quicker, and so the reminder works.

With respect, saying "well you can look up the shortcut in the online help" isn't the same - it's a separate task, whereas the tooltip version is something you can access while trying to do whatever it is. And no, I'm not promoting a return to Clippy - "you can get that faster by using Control-V", (although I found the animated Office Assistants quite amusing).

Understood - and I wasn't being flippant in my comment I really do admire the help. But really it comes down to what the focus groups (Microsoft used many for the new office) say and, as discussed the vast majority will never use keyboard shortcuts so it's not a priority to make them visible (and there's a counter argument that you're cluttering the GUI, or that tooltips are hidden functionality in themselves - the list goes on). Software is about compromise, but there we are.

[crossy]

Thing is, that's just not happened - the shiny GUI stuff serves a functional purpose versus the quagmire of menus that riddled office and was impenetrable to all but those who'd spend years slogging through them. The hotkeys haven't moved away and many of the features are now far more powerful - the ribbon switches contexts and you get real-time previews of changes for example. Dig deep (just like you had to beforehand) and everything you need is there. Witness how many didn't know the ribbon could minimize and complained about it using too much space. Power users are just as vulnerable to being 'embedded' in their ways as anyone else sadly.

Agreed - especially that last part. I'm probably too "old school" to 'get' the current ribbon interface in Office - it always seems like the function that I need is buried deep in the least obvious of the tabs.

I remember doing a web-based frontend/control for a SCADA system, and what a revelation it was when the customer insisted that I do a week "on the shop floor". It still makes me smile about how poor some of the design decisions made in a nice warm office turned out to be, specifically when reviewed in a noisy, cold warehouse. Maybe all software UI folks should be made to "eat their own dog food" - it certainly worked for me.

[dangel]

Agreed - especially that last part. I'm probably too "old school" to 'get' the current ribbon interface in Office - it always seems like the function that I need is buried deep in the least obvious of the tabs.

If there's one thing i've learnt, it's that people hate change - most of them at least. I regularly have to fight for UI changes that make perfect sense but people just don't want to relearn anything. Effort is required!

I remember doing a web-based frontend/control for a SCADA system, and what a revelation it was when the customer insisted that I do a week "on the shop floor". It still makes me smile about how poor some of the design decisions made in a nice warm office turned out to be, specifically when reviewed in a noisy, cold warehouse. Maybe all software UI folks should be made to "eat their own dog food" - it certainly worked for me.

hehe yes a good point! MS spent a buttload on testing with focus groups to develop office 2k7 and *personally* I think it paid off. In time, if you got it right, people stop moaning and start praising..

[this_is_gav]

Damn, I wish cars had stuck with 7 levers rather than moved onto these awful pedal things.