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Thread: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

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    News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Windows 8 has too many compromises.
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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    His answer concerning Microsoft Windows 8 merging tablets and PCs together being like merging fridges and toasters was not such a good analogy. I could imagine the same analogy being used a few years ago saying that PDAs, phones, cameras, portable media players and satellite navigation units should never merge together.
    I disagree, the nature of the things being merged makes a big difference; PDAs, phones, cameras, portable media players and satellite navigation don't interfere with each other, they all are best used in the same kind of device with similar input characteristics. A toaster and fridge are not similar devices with similar input characteristics and as such do not go well together; this is a good analogy for a desktop and touch screen device, trying to use a mouse to navigate a mobile OS is painful at times.

    Design choices made with a mobile device in mind don't work in favour of a desktop device and therein lies the problem. As Mr Cook says, paraphrasing Steve Jobs, "you can only do so many things well." Microsoft are not doing desktop functionality well because of their skewed focus and most of their customers agree.

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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Design choices made with a mobile device in mind don't work in favour of a desktop device and therein lies the problem. As Mr Cook says, paraphrasing Steve Jobs, "you can only do so many things well." Microsoft are not doing desktop functionality well because of their skewed focus and most of their customers agree.
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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    A toaster and fridge are not similar devices with similar input characteristics and as such do not go well together
    Simply not true. A toaster-fridge would be awesome. Put your bread in the fridge, when you want toast, press button and bingo! toast. Awesome. I want a toaster-fridge.
    "In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penises, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship."

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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    with a cheese addon for those times you want cheese on toast? Why think small guys...
    iFridgeNtoast
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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Who puts bread in the fridge?

    A toaster freezer or freezer toaster on the other hand would be brilliant, it could do waffles, pizzas and of course toast!

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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Put aside the Toast Fridge comparison, I think he is right.

    Desktop PCs/Macs are more versatile, more powerful, they are simply more. Tablet, Phones, Laptops are all less in comparison. If they bring an OS that they want to be the same across the board then they are limiting the Desktop PC/Mac - it might be adequate, but it won't be want it can be.

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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    I dont buy it, yes Win8 isnt looking amazing but the GUI with a bit of work can be flawless and the underlying work is fine. I dont think it will hinder either and they will actually do better when integrated, having a defined GUI across all platforms makes it much easier to use and get to grips, like for example you use a desktop pc at work and then you co worker asks you to do something on his works tablet and since the GUI would be similar/same it would be a snap, efficient and less things to remember.


    I think people are forgetting that a GUI is just a GUI, it doesnt stop you doing demanding tasks or productive work, just because one platform is far superior in power doesnt mean it cant work with a similar GUI. You use your windows PC for doing designs and coding among many many other things, you still will be using your applications (photoshop/visual studios etc) to do that, those programs have individual GUI so thats unaffected.

    I also think is unfair to say that a smartphone isnt similar to what tim meant with the toaster and fridge thing, a smartphone has a camera and music/video capabilities built in... well the cameras are pitiful compared to proper dedicated cameras, music can be playedback better in a dedicated device with a proper amp etc and video well that can also have better quality on better hardware (but it requires less sacrifce), you compromise on all of these things with a smartphone, not that im saying its bad im just saying that you do make a compromise so its the exact same thing with Win8, you compromise a bit on GUI currently if you are on a PC/desktop compared to a touch enabled device. Im hoping MS make the changes soon as the GUI only needs a few improvements here and there to actually be better inregards to usability on the desktop than Win7, albeit they should keep the standard desktop as a backup/alternative.

    Also remember that as we will be seeing x64/x86 cpu in tablets again that we will be able to move all our applications onto other devices aswell, an even more integrated setup... so you could be running your photoshop on tablets/phones/laptops/desktops with the same GUI, genius if they can pull it off.
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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks12 View Post
    I think people are forgetting that a GUI is just a GUI, it doesnt stop you doing demanding tasks or productive work, just because one platform is far superior in power doesnt mean it cant work with a similar GUI. You use your windows PC for doing designs and coding among many many other things, you still will be using your applications (photoshop/visual studios etc) to do that, those programs have individual GUI so thats unaffected.
    Yes,it does compromise productivity(especially multi-tasking) as again the issue is that different input tools require a different UI. Shoehorning is what caused MS to lose the massive marketshare of the smartphone and tablet markets they had,and with that mentality they deserved it.

    Microsoft is such a big company,you would thing they would gave fathomed this by now.

    Apple did not try this with iOS and OS X and their CEO is right. If anything if the OSes do eventually converge,Apple will do it properly as they realise different input devices don't work with the same UI. This is why the iPad did well and in some ways Apple does deserve their success.

    For linear thinkers the current Metro UI implementation on the desktop is fine,but for anyone else using a mouse and keyboard it is a pile of fail. Considering that for such people a touch based OS is probably better,there is no reason for the desktop to be gimped. Even then for many older users it is very confusing using Metro on the desktop.

    Very little of the UI "improvements" for desktop actually help productivity and most instead do the opposite. In fact every single person I know who does actual work with their PCs considers Metro useless for desktop(many of them also have tablets and smartphones too,so are not against touch either). We can get used to it,but it does mean it is not an optimal user experience for desktop users.

    They don't need to tweak anything - it is very simple. Have the desktop mode/app as something similar to Windows 7 and previous versions of Windows.

    That way if you want touch - use Metro and if you want a desktop,you get a desktop which is not gimped. Simples.

    On top of this they don't need to eff around wasting time and money on their "improved" desktop.

    But,no as MS stated they said they think EVERYONE will be using touch for EVERYTHING. Typical shoehorning,MS style. That is their executive ego driven decision and it smacks of this. It also shows how little MS thinks of its installed desktop user base too,and of many gamers.

    The main reason IMHO why Microsoft is gimping the desktop experience is to make money,thats all, as they want all applications to be for Metro and in their app store where they will have 100% control and can take a cut. They can also artificially inflate the number of apps for their store too,so they can look better when compared to iOS and Android.

    It is a combination of greed and the fact they have a monopoly in the desktop OS market,so egos can be left unchecked.

    I just hope they have improved the desktop experience significantly by the time the OS ships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks12 View Post
    Also remember that as we will be seeing x64/x86 cpu in tablets again that we will be able to move all our applications onto other devices aswell, an even more integrated setup... so you could be running your photoshop on tablets/phones/laptops/desktops with the same GUI, genius if they can pull it off.
    Not anything serious though,especially with a glossy screen on a tablet,and the lack of physical screen size too. For on the go quick and easy manipulation,a tablet would be OK though as indicated by the current apps you can get.

    However,for more complex editing of pictures,it can be done quicker using a precision mouse,rather than touch,especially with things like precision triming and selecting objects. When you need to do dozens of images,touch would become tiresome.

    Using something like Inkscape or Coreldraw on a touchscreen with your fingers would be horrendous,due to the lack of precision.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 31-05-2012 at 06:17 PM.

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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks12 View Post
    I think people are forgetting that a GUI is just a GUI, it doesnt stop you doing demanding tasks or productive work, just because one platform is far superior in power doesnt mean it cant work with a similar GUI. You use your windows PC for doing designs and coding among many many other things, you still will be using your applications (photoshop/visual studios etc) to do that, those programs have individual GUI so thats unaffected.
    I think you are missing the reason people are complaining, it isn't because they can't do what they used to, it is because the way in which they get to the point where they do the things they used to is unnecessarily convoluted and out of proportion in a desktop environment. The problem isn't that work as usual won't get done it is that the time spent operating the system before your program opens for you to begin productive work is not easier or better and actually gets in the way.

    A mobile device has limited screen space and an input device that can't be pixel specific, ie a large amount of space is needed for each button for it to be easily pressed where as a desktop requires far less. This necessitates a full screen start menu for a mobile device because anything smaller is more difficult to use. On a desktop a full screen start menu is far too big and requires you to move the mouse much further to achieve the same goal that could easily be achieved by using a proportional start menu that only took up a small section of the screen. This extra movement leads to more delay in picking your application from the list you have called as well as making the list cover up applications behind it that you might want to remain visible while navigating the list. Having multiple applications open AND visible on a mobile device is almost unheard of and as such the OS is designed with that in mind but on a desktop it is the norm and so preventing the effective use of multiple apps at 1 time just because the start menu takes up the entire screen is cumbersome and unproductive.

    An example of how stupidly convoluted the options are in Windows 8 lets walk through the process required for you to shut down the PC: move mouse to bottom left corner> click to open start menu> click your name top right> select log out> click and hold while moving mouse upwards to get rid of wallpaper revealing login options> click power button> select shut down. That is one convoluted mess of a GUI and all along the way there are no hints at how to get to the next step, you have to click and stumble upon what needs to be done to figure it out... It's stupid and unnecessary and that is why people complain about. Having different OSs integrate is fine but making them the same is a mistake.

    I wait to see what improvements have been made in the Release Candidate and I hope they listened to the feedback highlighting the inadequacy of the Metro start menu for desktop use but I think they have already adjusted their tunnel vision excluding any desktop specific criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    The only reason why Microsoft is gimping the desktop experience is to make money,thats all, as they want all applications to be for Metro and in their app store where they will have 100% control and can take a cut.

    It is a combination of greed and the fact they have a monopoly in the desktop OS markets,so egos can be left unchecked.
    This is the feeling I get as well. The fact that Metro apps are unusable without a Microsoft account is evidence of this. It is the same walled garden bollocks that I dislike about Apple. Windows' success has been based on open use but is now moving in the opposite direction and I think there are a lot of people that agree it is a bad choice.

    They are clearly trying to lock people into Microsoft products so that once they start using them it becomes difficult to stop and I'm not happy about it and won't support it.

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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Video of the release preview:

    http://www.winbeta.org/news/video-re...medium=twitter



    It seems the release preview will be out today.

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    Re: News - Tim Cook talks about Apple and the competition

    Yeah i should have made my post a bit better! I agree the current implementation is TERRIBLE for desktops and laptops, its the reason i dropped win8 within 2 days of being on my laptop (it was also slow as hell, control panel and wifi options took 1 - 2 minutes to load, even though its on an SSD and win7 is instant). It needs alot of work, i think what im on about is really the potential to be great but currently MS has made a terrible job at it and focused to much on this touch gimmick, touch is great for phones/tablets your limited of buttons so it makes sense and again for artists it makes sense with a graphic tablet (very high precision touch) but thats about it, i guess if that kinect gets better and leap is brilliant then it has its place but thats the only type of touch (more like gestures) that i want for my desktop.

    Currently MS have missed the goal but im hoping by release they have gone back to basics , things like you mentioned the power off is ANNOYING AS HELL, why did they do this i have no idea as it was peeing me off when i wanted to turn my laptop off, they should have made a button within one of the pop out menus/sidebars to have it there but no its silly mistakes like this which is why MS is always terrible . Ideally i just want the improvements to task manager and multimonitors , i get Win8 for free so as long as i get an option to use the currently superior GUI that is win7 im happy!.
    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
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