News - AMD APU: What do consumers think?

[HEXUS]

Three HEXUS competition winners share their thoughts on the A6-3670 Black Edition APU.

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[yo-bilo]

I have had an amd apu 10 and its not that good. I should have went for the amd fx - 8100 black edition

[heXuser]

My next build is going to be an A10 APU as am more concerned about power (silly bills) and noise than straight performance, although am sure one can xfire if need be for games.

[jim]

I freaking love them.

All I need now is an excuse to buy one

[Noli]

They sound like they have their uses (good HTPC chips etc albeit slighly overkill for that) but they seem to have failed massively at their main niche, which is in *significantly* undercutting the price of equivalent intel cpu/gpu combinations. The problem is that even if the chips are half the price of the intel equivalent, that's probably only £50 savings. But for a £800 laptop, that's not much of a saving for a 40% reduction in processing power (and hence laptop longevity) also. AMD need to focus on creating an equivalent of Optimus drivers for their discrete GPUs next...

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

They sound like they have their uses (good HTPC chips etc albeit slighly overkill for that) but they seem to have failed massively at their main niche, which is in *significantly* undercutting the price of equivalent intel cpu/gpu combinations. The problem is that even if the chips are half the price of the intel equivalent, that's probably only £50 savings.

What are you going on about? These are desktop APUs!

Did you even bother to read the article which had our reviews??

Moreover,an A6-3670K is £64 from Scan. A Core i3 costs much more.

Look at my review:

http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-reader...ml#post2548937

Scaryjim's HTPC angle with additional benchmarks:

http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-reader...le-review.html

The one from Apex with Monkey:

http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-reader...amacallit.html

I have a Core i3 2100 and the A6 3670K which is massively cheaper and is not really that much different for many tasks. The only thing the Core i3 2100 is noticeably faster at is at CPU limited games with a discrete card.

For a general purpose PC they are fantastic,and for day to day usage I saw zero difference between the two.

The IGP obliterates my Core i3 2100 in every way and that is where the difference is seen.

They are a great option for a cheap family PC,as the IGP can actually run some games. I also know as GPU compute picks up,the IGP will be good enough - Toms Hardware has covered this. Companies like Adobe are already supporting OpenCL with applications. Even Intel is supporting OpenCL I believe. The HD4000 technically supports it already(but is much slower than the current AMD IGPs).

Even on forums like OcUK I have seen people with Core i5 gaming PCs pick up A6 and A8 CPUs for second builds for themselves, or family,because they are perfect for that sort of thing or an HTPC.

But for a £800 laptop, that's not much of a saving for a 40% reduction in processing power (and hence laptop longevity) also. AMD need to focus on creating an equivalent of Optimus drivers for their discrete GPUs next...

Really now?? Every laptop which I had to ditch and literally everyone else I have known who has had to ditch laptops,ditched it due to poor IGP performance. The decode blocks in older generation IGPs did not support proper video playback and flash acceleration at all - it is rarely a CPU issue. The other instances is when a cheap laptop cannot run an old game. Remember a mate who could not run something like COD on a GMA4000(or something similar) due to crappy drivers even if the IGP was technically capable.At least with the HD4000,Intel has done something decent with their IGPs.

Tablets have very weak CPUs,but their IGPs and decode hardware are quite capable though,so this is why they are so popular,as they do a better job than netbooks. For instance an Atom has far more CPU power than most ARM based tablet SOCs,but a useless IGP so the whole user experience is horrible.

This is why laptops like even the Core2 based Mac Airs are still popular even second hand and Apple did not even update them for years(decent graphics for the class). Heck,I know enough people writing(or have written) their large theses on dual core machines.

Any reasonable dual core CPU and and a capable enough IGP or graphics card,will last years for normal usage.

Moreover,your prices of the AMD laptops are way off. You can get a Samsung A10-4600M laptop from John Lewis with an HD7670M(which runs in Crossfire with the HD7660G IGP) for £599.95 from John Lewis.

A chap over on OcUK has reviewed it:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...php?t=18433537

It's an honest review showing the pros and cons of the laptop.

[Dareos]

You have been mooosed,note the extra o


On a serious note, and occasionally I can be serious.. What Hexus has done here, has put the decisions and the reviews in the hands of the public, the consumer, the very people that read the Hexus reviews and take note of them, and then go on to buy the products that are recommended by DR and co.

It could well have been a high end product that was shipped out to the 3 winners, whether a graphics card or SSD etc, and opinions asked, but it wasn't. It was a mid ranged system for your average user delivered at a cost none of the regulars would blanch at. A great many of us have actually spent more on a single graphics card than was actually spent on this system.


Opinions were asked, and what we got were 3 very thorough in depth reviews that put many a magazine article to shame as each recipient took this opportunity to heart and gave an honest and frank assessment of the tech they were given. Photos, benchmarks, ease of assembly, quirks and honest opinions were all part of this process, and the results were accurate for their intended use, as far as I personally can see.

Its very easy to forget who the end user actually is in these situations. The gamer, the graphic designer, the programmer, the 14 year old that wishes his mother had a basement he could live in till he was pushing 40. The reality is that processors and graphics cards and all the bits and pieces that go along with them only really appeal to the niche market... which I believe is the Hexus mainstream... and the average user just wants something that delivers that Ronseal promise.

I don't think that I personally could have delivered anything like the quality of review that our recipients did, but I do feel that the reviews do reflect the quality of the product in the scenario they were supposed to be used in.

In other words, it was reviews for the people, by the people


gonna sign off now before i go all commie on your asses

[Apex]

BTW Guys sorry for lack of updates from me i've had my hands full with other stuff but i now have a new shiny case to house my new shiny stuff

[ET3D]

The only AMD APU I have experience with is the E-350, and I certainly like it for what it did, give me a low cost small laptop (Thinkpad X120e) that was decently usable. I think it's a bit too underpowered, but it's still decent enough.

However I think that on the desktop the APU's aren't too convincing. Their combination of low performance and high power draw makes Intel CPU's more appealing IMO.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The only AMD APU I have experience with is the E-350, and I certainly like it for what it did, give me a low cost small laptop (Thinkpad X120e) that was decently usable. I think it's a bit too underpowered, but it's still decent enough.

However I think that on the desktop the APU's aren't too convincing. Their combination of low performance and high power draw makes Intel CPU's more appealing IMO.

Did you actually read the review that scaryjim wrote,you know the one with the power consumption figures?

Did you even read any of the other reviews?

If you thing 80w at the wall for the entire system is high and this is under full graphics and CPU workload,ie, a game then it surprises me!

[wasabi]

OK on paper but the trouble I have with them is that they're not particularly good at anything, so always likely to come out 2nd best for me. Not graphicy enough to be a serious gamer box, too high wattage to be a true silent HTPC, come in a bit underpowered compared to Intel as CPU beast. Where they might do OK is for people who have one machine - a laptop.

And I've never had an AMD system that has been quite as stable as Intel systems. I know that is a very broad generalisation, but still holds true for me.

[Percy1983]

Personally I am running a A8-3870k in an HTPC and it really is the perfect chip for such a setup.

Yes there aren't the fastest CPU or GPU but a perfect low power mix.

[scaryjim]

... too high wattage to be a true silent HTPC ...

Entire system draws 50W at the wall during DVD playback, and that's without any voltage tweaking, and using a 250W PSU so at the bottom end of the efficiency curve - you could probably reduce that significantly with undervolting and by using a PicoPSU. Since the heat output will be les than the power drawn from the wall due to efficiency losses, that could comfortably be passively cooled with a large heatsink.

[wasabi]

=
Entire system draws 50W at the wall during DVD playback, and that's without any voltage tweaking, and using a 250W PSU so at the bottom end of the efficiency curve - you could probably reduce that significantly with undervolting and by using a PicoPSU. Since the heat output will be les than the power drawn from the wall due to efficiency losses, that could comfortably be passively cooled with a large heatsink.

You'd struggle to cool that passively in a small HTPC case, although it would be doable in a regular ATX chassis. The gotcha I see for them in the HTPC area is that it isn't directly the I3 2100 it has to compete with. Surely the Intel equivalent is the circa-£50 35W G620T, which does DXVA accelerated onboard graphics very nicely.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

You'd struggle to cool that passively in a small HTPC case, although it would be doable in a regular ATX chassis. The gotcha I see for them in the HTPC area is that it isn't directly the I3 2100 it has to compete with. Surely the Intel equivalent is the circa-£50 35W G620T, which does DXVA accelerated onboard graphics very nicely.

I have BOTH. Guess where I use my Core i3 2100? In a modified Shuttle G2 case with with a mini-ITX case.

There are people over on OcUK,who have powered A8 rigs off pico-PSUs fine.

Plenty of people are using them in HTPC rigs too.

I like how you keep modifying your argument though. First they are not suitable for a silent HTPC. Then it goes to a small passive HTPC. What next solar powered nano-scale PC??

But wait,lets look here:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...hlight=PASSIVE

Oh! A £55 65W TDP A6-3500 runs fine in a passively cooled case,with a 1.55GHZ overclock using a mini-ITX motherboard!

[Noli]

@Cat-The-Fifth

Ok I appreciate you've literally done research with these chips.

1) I have read reviews but *not* the Hexus ones that readers such as your good self wrote. Nonetheless I've read enough.
2) No I didn't appreciate the discussion was limited to desktop parts. Obviously laptop APUs exist and I guess those are of primary interest to me.
3) True, I did answer the question selfishly from my own perspective / needs / wants.

At the end of the day, you're right, for 99% of people who just browse, email, use office software, some hi-def video & flash, APUs are perfect. Hell, Brazos would be fine for most. And brazos can decode & output 1080p which is more than enough for future video needs until beyond the life of most laptops so even APUs are overkill for this. But I've read that people perceive brazos as slower with medium-heavy multitasking.

But I do want some half decent gaming performance (in a laptop) which will last a good few years (5+) for most 'average' games. And for that, I've read *plenty* of reviews where the APUs just don't cut the mustard compared to i3/i5 + discrete gpu (often, not always nvidia). They can often play all but the most demanding games on all but the most detailed settings at ok framerates at best. Which usually means that in 2-4 years' time, they'll be struggling. I accept I'm an enthusiast but this is an enthusiast website.

Time and time again I've seen the intels+discrete convincingly outperform (and I really want AMD to be value kings like in the old days!). Yes the APUs can be cheaper but not by enough when the total laptop price is taken into account. And this is what I meant by AMD not being able to undercut Intel enough - they just can't make a laptop's total price *much* cheaper when the CPU/APU is just one component and there are other fixed costs of screen, hdd, ram, keyboard, chassis, design, marketing etc. The APU may look a lot cheaper than an individual i3 but the total system cost is important.

Your link to the Samsung A10-4600M for £600 is a good example. For the same price (well £608), I can get an Acer Timeline M3 with core i5 and 640M graphics.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...HKRAWBRJ7QFRQ4

It's very similar in performance and battery life. With an i5 it definitely edges in cpu performance. It's likely very competitive in GPU too. The below charts show the M3 absolutely wasting trinity with A10-4600M + HD7660G (i.e. same as the Sammy). Ok, this one has i7 and my £607 was for an i5 but I'll happily wager that the i5 isn't that far behind in gaming performance.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5831/a...m-a-new-hope/6

*And* the 640M has the added track record of reliable optimus performance vs some troubles/inefficiencies with the AMD dual graphics configurations that I've read about. Bottom line is that AMD is not *convincingly* beating intel+nvidia in their combined CPU+GPU+value proposition which is what the whole AMD + ATI merger/llano/trinity thing is all about.

I hope they do one day, but I just don't see it now. All just imho of course.

I'm happy to accept I looked a bit foolish for not reading the article properly - my apologies.
Just wanted to explain what I was going on about and hopefully convince that I'm not actually going mad.