Reviews - Apple's Tim Cook: Microsoft's Surface is "fairly compromised"

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

This touchscreen Windows 8 Ultrabook starts at £400:

http://forums.hexus.net/computer-sys...rts-399-a.html

[dangel]

The problem is...if you want productivity buy a £400 laptop. It'll be infinitely more compatible, more useful, nicer to use etc...you can get some really nice units around 400-450 mark these days if you shop around. Just as an example:

http://www.acerdirect.co.uk/Acer_M3_...on.asp?PID=676

Okay so you're not getting an IPS Touchscreen or the 11 hours battery life but you are getting:

Full windows 8 experience in x86 environment (for +£15)
320Gb of storage
A bigger screen (read more usable from a productivity POV)
A proper keyboard
20mm thick / 2Kg

I'm not saying the products are comparable, I'm saying if you had ~ £400-500 to spend and you want something for productivity the Surface RT doesn't make much sense. The Surface Pro looks more compelling but you know with the Surface @ £400 (without a keyboard remember) is going to price itself out of the market ....I'm expecting prices of £600+ when really it needs to hit £500 or less to have any kind of mass market appeal.

..and yet the iPad? Whilst I'm fully aware that an apple logo on something makes it desirable this feels very much like people saying that netbooks wouldn't sell at their price point (and they did) or the iPad. It's rather easy to be clinical about it and think with your tech head on - but the reality is people like touch for consumption and the added bonus of a physical keyboard and office for productivity makes it quite compelling. I think what i'm trying to say is that Surface offers you the tablet primarily with the added bonus of being (potentially) far more productive that other tablets (keyboard, office etc).

Me, being techy want's the Pro though..

[aidanjt]

...yes but it's a full on OS - i.e. with proper scheduling and lots of device support.

Which devices? You've no way of knowing the extent of peripheral support on RT. The entire range of manufacturer supported Windows drivers are 100% useless on ARM. All you can bet on are the generic class device drivers Microsoft implemented, the same ones which work on Android. And we haven't seen any scheduling comparisons either, have we?

[Raz316]

Which devices? You've no way of knowing the extent of peripheral support on RT. The entire range of manufacturer supported Windows drivers are 100% useless on ARM. All you can bet on are the generic class device drivers Microsoft implemented, the same ones which work on Android. And we haven't seen any scheduling comparisons either, have we?

Can we assume USB devices connected to an X86 version if Windows 8 will work as described on devices/software here - http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windo...anguage=en-US# ?

[TheAnimus]

Which devices? You've no way of knowing the extent of peripheral support on RT. The entire range of manufacturer supported Windows drivers are 100% useless on ARM. All you can bet on are the generic class device drivers Microsoft implemented, the same ones which work on Android. And we haven't seen any scheduling comparisons either, have we?

The problem here is we are in to the well known territory of what is Android, it is afterall often a heavily moving target. For instance my Nexus7 has Usb on The Go or whatever its called atm, which in theory means I should be able to connect say a digital camera as a mass storage device. But I can't. It isn't supported in Android without jail breaking.

For example the Transformer Prime can't print to most (AFAIK any!) printers via a direct USB connection, instead cloud printing is required.

http://www.transformerforums.com/for...er-driver.html for instance someone there states incorrectly its not a function of an OS, well thats a shocker to me, as I remember windows 95 having as its core offering drivers that supported an old STAR LC10 colour dot matrix that was 10+ years old.

Android is unlucky in that it can, but probably not for the average joe.

The fact that Microsoft are pushing new printer languages as a result of the Windows 8 development is a good example.

However, I don't think anyone would say the surface is the be all and end all. The issue is Apple say this about the iPad. For me I am puzzeled why the surface doesn't have say wireless projector feature built in (or if it does no one has mentioned it).

[aidanjt]

Can we assume USB devices connected to an X86 version if Windows 8 will work as described on devices/software here - http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windo...anguage=en-US# ?

Yeah, x86/x64 Windows 8 shouldn't have any problems at all.

[dangel]

Which devices? You've no way of knowing the extent of peripheral support on RT. The entire range of manufacturer supported Windows drivers are 100% useless on ARM. All you can bet on are the generic class device drivers Microsoft implemented, the same ones which work on Android. And we haven't seen any scheduling comparisons either, have we?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/t...s-rt-review/11

Much as I love my Gnex and n7 i'm being realistic this sounds a heck of a lot better even before we see wider support. As for iOS and my iPad.. yeah, prolly best not go there.

[Loxick]

Coming from the company that screwed customers who bought an iPad 3 on release date, Apple please shove it.

[aidanjt]

For instance my Nexus7 has Usb on The Go or whatever its called atm, which in theory means I should be able to connect say a digital camera as a mass storage device. But I can't. It isn't supported in Android without jail breaking.

It should work, the OS does support UMS. Not sure about MTP/PTP from the device though, maybe that's what your camera is exposing to the host controller. If you're sure it's a UMS device, are you sure it isn't just your dongle? Some aren't that great.

For example the Transformer Prime can't print to most (AFAIK any!) printers via a direct USB connection, instead cloud printing is required.

I'm not sure how this is really an inconvenience. There's some printshare apps which can print to printers over wireless and bluetooth as well. But I'm not sure about direct USB printing, not something I'd think about. It'd probably involve porting CUPS over and developing a simple config interface for it.

http://www.transformerforums.com/for...er-driver.html for instance someone there states incorrectly its not a function of an OS, well thats a shocker to me, as I remember windows 95 having as its core offering drivers that supported an old STAR LC10 colour dot matrix that was 10+ years old.

Well it's not, really, from a UNIX perspective at least. Hence CUPS. But Google should be thinking about developing a standard programme to handle printing beyond 'cloud' voodoo. Even if it just used the sharing subsystem like some of the 3rd party apps it'd be super useful for people still with the paper fixation for sure.

The fact that Microsoft are pushing new printer languages as a result of the Windows 8 development is a good example.

It would be nice if we could settle on a standard printing protocol and do away with per-device printing drivers once and for all. But I wont hold my breath on that one. Printing has been hell since day one, and I expect its need to die off long before we get zero-suck printing.

However, I don't think anyone would say the surface is the be all and end all. The issue is Apple say this about the iPad.

Indeed, the shameless iPad plugging and all. It was just cheap and tacky.

For me I am puzzeled why the surface doesn't have say wireless projector feature built in (or if it does no one has mentioned it).

That would be neat.

[crossy]

I agree on the cost. I got an ASUS tranformer pad tf300 for £379 with a keyboard dock (and a full USB port and tegra 3!). Why would I pay more for a surface?

That's pretty much my opinion too - especially as for <£10 I can also get Doc2Go which does a reasonable job at providing "Office" capabilities. The current pricing is utterly stupid - drop the think to £320 (or less) and arrange it so the Surface+Keyboard(/"Cover") is at the £399 mark.

Interesting to hear of Cook's attack on the Surface - I'm sure that Redmond are delighted that they got it "right" enough to be worth attacking instead of the various Android devices. Although I will say that it's also nice to see that the Surface uses a proper "docking" connection for it's keyboard - rather than some half-assed "pairing" like is the way on iPad etc (some folks have tried to claim - utterly wrongly - to me that a paired BT keyboard on their iPad makes that completely equivalent to my Transformer - it doesn't!)

I also can't help wondering if, as Microsoft say, that it's so easy to port iOS and Android apps to Windows8RT whether the reverse is also true. I'm sure that there's a lot of fellow Android tablet owners out there that'd quite like to see a touch driven version of Office for their devices.

I'm also in whole-hearted agreement that Surface could well steal some sales from the budget laptops (and destroy the market for netbooks). After all, who's to say that a USB DVD drive couldn't be designed to be slotted into that nice USB port? With that available, there's going to be a lot of folks who just use their laptops for low power tasks (web browsing, email, social media, a bit of media consumption and the odd letter and simple spreadsheet) who'll be happy with the Surface.

Interesting times, although I'm more excited by the prospect of what more experienced manufacturers (Asus, Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc) can do with this design.

For instance my Nexus7 has Usb on The Go or whatever its called atm, which in theory means I should be able to connect say a digital camera as a mass storage device. But I can't. It isn't supported in Android without jail breaking.

For example the Transformer Prime can't print to most (AFAIK any!) printers via a direct USB connection, instead cloud printing is required.

Nexus connection to the camera should be possible - certainly I've seen a lot of posts saying that it works. yes, I know that "it works for me" isn't much help

Oh, and since the Nexus is an Android device, the term is "rooting" not "jail breaking". Please keep your iPad-isms out of the discussion!

Hmm, again not much help, but most of the survey's I've seen have said that direct USB connection (for domestic use anyway) is dying out. More and more devices in homes mean that wireless printing is seen as a "must have" the same way that wireless routers are. Certainly ALL the printers that I've seen discussion of recently have been "wifi enabled" and quite a few of them are also touch driven too.

Android's "support" of printers - to me at least - is on a par with iOS's - it's a bit of a kludge that might, or might not, work. Best system I've seen so far is webOS+HP printers - the OS finds the printer and downloads and installs the correct driver automatically. E.g. on my wife's TouchPad she got a message that it needed to "Configure Photosmart printer", a delay of about 4 seconds, and then she was good to go, and her print started.

If Windows8RT can do better on the printing (some sort of central database of print devices perhaps - rather than the nausea of having to install drivers "manually") then it'll get a big thumbs up from me.

[tekgun]

Is he praying to Steve in that photo?

[Biscuit]

It should work, the OS does support UMS. Not sure about MTP/PTP from the device though, maybe that's what your camera is exposing to the host controller. If you're sure it's a UMS device, are you sure it isn't just your dongle? Some aren't that great..

Unfortunately Google deliberately blocked users from accessing USB sticks via OTG cables. Animus is, however, incorrect in saying that he cant access it. You just need to use software called Nexus Media Importer. This allows you to read but not write.

[TheAnimus]

It should work, the OS does support UMS. Not sure about MTP/PTP from the device though, maybe that's what your camera is exposing to the host controller. If you're sure it's a UMS device, are you sure it isn't just your dongle? Some aren't that great.

Can't really test the dongle better than "it's worked before on other devices", I don't have access to any USB debugging kit atm unfortunatly.

I'm not sure how this is really an inconvenience. There's some printshare apps which can print to printers over wireless and bluetooth as well. But I'm not sure about direct USB printing, not something I'd think about. It'd probably involve porting CUPS over and developing a simple config interface for it.

Its a huge inconvience. I own one wireless printer, out of 6. All 6 are apparently supported by RT. Not one is by andriod without running something on my computer to print via.

That is not a good solution, that is not a useful solution. As it stands the only thing on my Nexus or Ipad I'd ever want to print is a web page, so why I'd bother having a PC switched on, and print to the printer via that PC re-translating I don't know.

Well it's not, really, from a UNIX perspective at least. Hence CUPS. But Google should be thinking about developing a standard programme to handle printing beyond 'cloud' voodoo. Even if it just used the sharing subsystem like some of the 3rd party apps it'd be super useful for people still with the paper fixation for sure.

Agree, but its not there. It is not part of what google see as a 'core' use for the device.

It would be nice if we could settle on a standard printing protocol and do away with per-device printing drivers once and for all. But I wont hold my breath on that one. Printing has been hell since day one, and I expect its need to die off long before we get zero-suck printing.

Check out the building windows 8 blog talk about printing, MS are trying to push manafactures into caring.

That would be neat.

The reason I mention that is guess what I get from my ultrabook.

More and more companies I deal with have done away with 15pin VGAs in their main presentation rooms. Wireless is the shizzel. Allows nicely for Person A, then Person B, then A, then C etc.

Nexus connection to the camera should be possible - certainly I've seen a lot of posts saying that it works. yes, I know that "it works for me" isn't much help

Oh, and since the Nexus is an Android device, the term is "rooting" not "jail breaking". Please keep your iPad-isms out of the discussion!

I've just not got the time to waste on it, my point again is its not part of the 'core offering'. Also on the terminology as Apple invented 1984 computing, I'll use their term "Jail Breaking"

Hmm, again not much help, but most of the survey's I've seen have said that direct USB connection (for domestic use anyway) is dying out. More and more devices in homes mean that wireless printing is seen as a "must have" the same way that wireless routers are. Certainly ALL the printers that I've seen discussion of recently have been "wifi enabled" and quite a few of them are also touch driven too.

And how many of them can my Nexus print too without a PC or cloudy solution?

Android's "support" of printers - to me at least - is on a par with iOS's - it's a bit of a kludge that might, or might not, work. Best system I've seen so far is webOS+HP printers - the OS finds the printer and downloads and installs the correct driver automatically. E.g. on my wife's TouchPad she got a message that it needed to "Configure Photosmart printer", a delay of about 4 seconds, and then she was good to go, and her print started.

I'm not saying its impossible to do it on Andriod, its just a sign of the core offering, a surface is designed to also be useful in a business sense.

Unfortunately Google deliberately blocked users from accessing USB sticks via OTG cables. Animus is, however, incorrect in saying that he cant access it. You just need to use software called Nexus Media Importer. This allows you to read but not write.

So I need a fancy adapter (ok I happened to have one already but bear with me) Then I have to find some app, which isn't exactly easy to determine, pay $3, and I still can't actually move files?

[Rork]

I was considering a Surface Pro, but given the price of the RT version and the absurd price of the keyboards, I think I'll stick to more traditional laptops.

I don't mind expensive toys, but if I can get a core i5 laptop with all sorts of bells and whistles for much cheaper...MS can say bye-bye to my potential custom.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

This touchscreen Windows 8 Ultrabook starts at £400:

http://forums.hexus.net/computer-sys...rts-399-a.html

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6405/a...r-book-handson

An 11.6" aluminium unibody thin and light laptop with a touchscreen for £400 is good value.

[Biscuit]

great value... fail to see the point in a non-detachable touchscreen though