Features - Roy Taylor blog: The importance of AMD APU as a category

[watercooled]

I won't quote everything to keep this post concise.

Remember DDR != GDDR, DDR4 follows DDR3, GDDR5 has some similarities to DDR3 but is a separate technology.

An awful lot of software is actually making use of more than CPU cores now, aside from tons of well-known software using GPU acceleration, there's also dedicated hardware on newer APUs for various tasks like media encoding (things like screen mirroring/streaming for example). Some repetitive, heavy tasks are far more efficient when performed on GPUs, sometimes even more so on custom logic; that's why pretty much anything you'd expect to watch a HD video on will have hardware decoders for popular codecs like H.264. That's especially important for mobile use/battery life.

I doubt Intel would be doing something similar if it was a 'solution looking for a problem'. And look at the next consoles; the Xbox processor has been detailed - if the APU architecture wasn't needed, they could've gone for two smaller, separate processors (like so many previous consoles - even the Wii U with its tiny CPU uses separate dies on an MCM). The XB One die is bigger than a 7970! And don't forget it's a very high volume part too - they wouldn't use such a large die for no reason.

Also, I'm not aware of anywhere, apart from a few parts of synthetic benchmark suites, where the 5200 is significantly ahead of Richland. And as CAT said, the 5200 is far more expensive than any Richland chip.

[bluevaping]

Actually it is hinted at in the article "The APU is a device designed to offer both serial and parallel programming architecture and it’s clearly here to stay. It promises an exciting future, especially with the introduction of new unified memory architectures due next year."

Also I wasn't just referring to UMA. Current APUs use slow DDR3 which bottlenecks the GPU side, PS4 uses DDR5 removing the bottleneck. We may see DDR4/5 becoming mainstream for system RAM next year which will greatly speed up APUs. There are many articles around showing 3D game performance improvements of up to 30% with current AMD APUs by OC'ing RAM from 1600 to 2133.

There are many things that are not being taken advantage for APU desktop use. You don't necessarily need lots of expansion slots. Were are the unique smaller form factor computers being made by mainstream companies? When its time to upgrade. Add more ram and a different APU. Not being done.

FM2+ doesn't look like they are using DDR 4/5. Gigabyte specs are out for new FM2+ motherboards. It use DDR 3. I don't think its as simple as saying its DDR 3 that is the bottleneck. I'd say is has something to do with memory bandwidth performance with current generation APU. I guessing they increased the bandwidth and added UMA for the upcoming APUs. Richland is still competitive for what it offers at that price range. I think A10 6700 compared to ivy bridge mac mini dual core, it has a solid lead for performance. AMD needs to come out with a reference design system like google's nexus to show what can be done and not all about gaming.

[crossy]

Don't get me wrong, I use to have an AMD PC for gaming a few years back, but I have found Intel to be better for that use and as a big PC gamer I am happy to pay more for Intel then AMD as I know the extra cash is well worth it for my gaming needs.

I look forward to seeing what AMD offer with their APU's in the next few months when I look around for building that 4th PC for more general use, the odd game and well basically a cheaper to run PC which can also handle lower games such as CS.

Totally agree with what you're saying. As a general purpose "engine" the APU makes a good deal of sense. That said, my next gaming rig with be Intel powered rather than AMD - my first in more than a decade, but I'm just not convinced that AMD has got anything that's as good as the i7 for a gaming use.

OpenCL is at the very core of their argument though. To make their approach valid we need to have a massive rewrite of a load of software to support parallel processing. Apart from the 'intensive' tests that hardware sites love to throw at us when reviewing CPUs, this kind of approach simply isn't going to take off in the consumer sphere. And at the pro sphere, Nvidia simply have better offerings with discrete cards that can be shared between virtual servers.

AMD are bringing a 5 legged donkey from the rescue shelter to the Grand National. It may have a lot of features and be cheap, but the result is an incoherent mess. Just look at their hybrid crossfire.

Sorry, I'm going to disagree utterly and totally with all of what you've said above.
1. Needing a "massive rewrite" of software to support parallel processing. Erm, no - you use PP where it's appropriate. Heck like vectorisation, you wouldn't use that on a UI;
2. OpenCL not going to "take off in the consumer sphere". Try telling that to the Photoshop users, and I've seen OpenCL branded video recode apps - like Handbrake (Hexus forum link) for example where OpenCL is used to deliver improved FPS (demonstrating my point in #1 above);
3. NVidia have "discrete cards that can be shared between VM's", fine. But if that means you HAVE to use CUDA then there's an immediate cost overhead to having to learn a new scheme. Try taking that to a project manager and he/she will just laugh at you.

OpenCL has a HUUUUGGGGEEEEE advantage in that the devs have ONE library to learn that they know will work fine on Intel, NVidia or AMD backends. Can those others claim that? No.
DirectCompute is Windows only, so us Linux fans need not apply, (and there's a LOT of Linux users in the engineering and scientific fields - in my case CAE). CUDA is fine but that limits you to an NVidia backend - dire for portability. Look at the groups behind those three techs and OpenCL's corporate backers can out weigh either Microsoft or NVidia.

[maverik-sg1]

Whilst I appreciate the overall discussion about APU, ARM and Intel offer APU's too (a cpu with gpu combined on one chip to run serial and parallel applications efficently).

There's a lot of value in supporting open source coding, the problem with openCL/GL is that they always appear to be 1 or 2 key features behind DirectX/Compute/CUDA.

Maybe AMD APU's will become more desirable in the next 12-18months as more and more of the next gen console titles can simply be directly ported to PC's with AMD hardware installed? The offset result of which could be programming better suited to the features on the AMD solutions that are not mainstream right now?

For now though, they do fill the low-mid range gap quite nicely, where a reasonable 2D/3D performance at an excellent price point is desirable.

[DR]

Just so everyone is aware Roy Taylor is reading all of the comments on this thread so if you've something to say/question to raise feel free to post on the thread and no doubt he will answer!

[watercooled]

There's a lot I'd like to ask, but mainly about future products, so I doubt it would be possible to answer.

But, on the off chance, has desktop Kabini been released? I know for sure some mobile Kabini laptops are already available to buy, but as I mentioned over here, some (leaked/forged?) roadmaps are confusing me. And/or can high volume production really come after products are already on the market?

I know it's not really APU specific, but worth a shot, eh?

Something more APU-specific, it appears (to me at least) that the VCE block is more aimed at streaming/screen mirroring than video transcoding, but are there any apps truly using it (i.e. not 'just' OpenCL), and is performance in that area likely to improve e.g. I've still not heard much about hybrid mode. Oh and about the streaming functionality, I had to do some deliberate digging to find out about it, and while it's understandably not something everyone will need to use, it (and the APU Appzone) could probably be marketed better so people know it's there.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Does he know when the A10 6700T is entering retail availability in the UK?? Are Jaguar based mini-ITX motherboards going to be available to buy this year??

Plus of course all the questions watercooled ask!!

[Agent]

I'd just like to say: Don't underestimate the market for low powered APUs. I know they are quite energy efficient now, but part of me wants to see a low end APU that is all about energy efficiency.

Heck, I want to see an entire platform around it: APU & motherboard. Not enough OEMs take the low system market that seriously. I don't want a big ATX PSU in my parents machine, but it becomes a cost issue when you start looking at decent Pico PSUs and the power brick for them them, along with an ITX case.

Encourage your partners to make more reasonably priced platforms like this. The huge premium some of them demand is silly. I'd love a low power ITX board / APU that uses an integrated PSU on the motherboard, powered by a laptop brick PSU, but I can't buy one without buying all the bits separately and paying for it more. ITX boards are hovering around £70/80 on most retailers (granted, A75), but I can buy a cheaper mATX one for around £35 (A55).

I'd honestly say that over 50% of the systems I've built for people recently could easily use something like this.

[HalloweenJack]

when will AMD final release a 1 chip SOC solution for retail - with reasonable performance.

what is the reply for Intel's behemoth GT3e? given the chip is huge!

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Agent there is one motherboard for socket FM2 which does have you want:

http://b2b.gigabyte.com/products/pro...px?pid=4697#sp

However,it looks like an industrial motherboard with limited retail availability!!

More lower cost mini-ITX motherboards for socket FM2/FM2+ would really help with their appeal(as Agent states) - Trinity in its lower TDP forms is well suited for such builds especially with low cost mini-ITX cases like the CM Elite 120.

Another thing is the timeframe for when the AMD mini-ITX motherboards are released. I notice when both Llano and Trinity were launched,many people wanted to pair them with mini-ITX motherboards,but alas none were available for months. I really hope that socket FM2+ mini-ITX motherboards are launched before the next generation AMD APUs are launched for desktop.

Another thing is the lack of mATX motherboards for socket AM3+ which is rather annoying with CPUs like the FX6300. I have had a few people asking me for advice about AM3+ mATX motherboards,and yet there are none easily available with a newish chipset.

[AETAaAS]

Does AMD have any plans to move to a smaller lithography on FX processors, as GF have already developed their manufacturing process? And in the eventuality that AMD does do this, would the targets be to maintain similar TDPs (125 and 95W) and increase clocks or use the opportunity to drop power consumption at the top end?

Is anything in the works for VP9/h265/HEVC accelerated encoding/decoding at the hardware level?

Also curious about the 8 core chips in next gen consoles, will there be a high end 8 core APU for desktops?

[watercooled]

Yeah I agree with the motherboard stuff - it would be nice to forgo an inefficient ATX PSU for low-powered systems, especially for stuff like Kabini. For platforms like FM2, let alone Kabini, the CPU is down in low single digits power consumption, but we're still seeing 30-40W at the wall. ATX power supplies are an obvious problem here considering decent models seem to start around 500W (even 80Plus models tend to have rubbish idle efficiency here), and motherboard efficiency is improving lately, but still has some room to go.

And about uATX AM3+ motherboards, they all but don't exist now! And on the efficiency subject, that seems to take a back seat on AM3+ boards, skewing comparisons, when the CPUs draw very little themselves when idle.

Edit: Oh and would be be possible to shed some light on GDDR5 for Kaveri, especially on the desktop?

[aidanjt]

Cheap CPU with onboard graphics is still just a CPU with onboard graphics. The APU category is marketing spiel, nothing more.

[AETAaAS]

Makes sense since AMD's FX parts have no onboard graphics. Certainly when APUs were launched, Intel's onboard graphics were absolutely woeful to the point that the words "Intel integrated" was a joke in itself amongst my friends.

[amd_roy]

hi many thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated. One word on the relevance of Open CL, if you watch MKV files then you probably use VLCPlayer, that uses Open CL. To transcode those shows and movies you may have used Handbrake, that uses Open CL too. One popular ref site is this one here; http://www.tonymacx86.com/graphics/93480-list-popular-opencl-apps.html

[amd_roy]

hi, a better list of science based here; http://streamcomputing.eu/blog/2013-06-03/the-application-areas-opencl-can-be-used/ these posts have highlighted the fact that we should list all Open CL apps currently on our website. We will do that.