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Thread: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    This Subject Is To Big For this article

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpotnoodle View Post
    The only thing that changes is the application launcher is now full screen rather than a menu, you still use the keyboard and mouse to find things. I actually find the start screen quicker than the start menu now I've spent time to get accustomed to it (hit start, type a few letters, hit enter) - it's certainly a country mile better than the old classic start menu from Windows XP before the search box was added (why the hell would you actually *want* that one back?). Windows 8/8.1 is fine for a work PC. You can still pin to taskbar (IMHO one of best additions in 7) still so how often do you really need the application launcher? I must use it a couple of times in an 8hr day...
    Quote Originally Posted by herulach View Post
    I have to say I find 8 perfectly fine to use. But then I basically never use the start menu in 7 either. Icons are either on the desktop, on the bar, or win key + type hit enter. All of which are exactly replicated on 8. I could go on about people needing a mouse to find stuff being noobs, but I won't.
    Actually the hit start, type letters & hit enter frequently fails in 8 vs 7 because it thoughtfully decides to categorise its results into apps (default option), settings and files, and is so badly designed that when searching for a setting, even when 'apps' has no hits it doesn't automatically switch to the 'settings' category - you have to choose it before selecting what you want. In Windows 7 these were all integrated and worked well.
    Fortunately Start 8 fixes this issue as well as getting rid of the annoying full screen app selection. Newsflash Microsoft: I like to -
    1. still see what I'm working on
    2. occasionally drag & drop things to the startup folder
    3. use buttons like network, run, etc and don't always want to use keybaord shortcuts

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    The default behaviour of program installers adding endless 1st level items to the Windows XP (and earlier) Start Menu program list created the mess. I usually re-arrange and clean up the list so it minimises the number of links and folders in the first level and group similar programs together. I don't need the links to the website, help file or uninstall in the program list. I often use more than 10 different programs in a day and more than 10 documents so the typical small lists of "recently used" is never enough. I wish they could create and use a standard for program categorisation and maybe sub-categories to keep lists organised. Installer would the prompt "Do you want to use an existing category or start a new category ?".

    On the matter of upgrades: I wish Microsoft et. al. prompt to overwrite user changes so we can keep our own preferences instead of reverting to some PR/marketing dweeb who thought orange and pruple were the 'in' colours for the season (at time of development). I don't like the default font. I don't like the default icon spacing. I don't like the default backgrounds. I don't like the included templates eg. PowerPoint templates that waste half the screen area and look horrible (primary school designer, no practical experience). I am not a 9yr old so stop treating me like one.

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    Quote Originally Posted by miniyazz View Post
    Actually the hit start, type letters & hit enter frequently fails in 8 vs 7 because it thoughtfully decides to categorise its results into apps (default option), settings and files, and is so badly designed that when searching for a setting, even when 'apps' has no hits it doesn't automatically switch to the 'settings' category - you have to choose it before selecting what you want. In Windows 7 these were all integrated and worked well.
    8.1 handles this a bit better but still not brilliantly. The customisations to the start screen could have been made better for transitioners from the start menu also.
    My biggest hate is how it handles special folders like "Administrative Tools". It will not search within them....hitting start and typing DNS will not show me the DNS MMC shortcut.

    I also cannot expand the start screen to show everything and then right-click a "program group" and pin it to the start page....most annoying.

    Fortunately Start 8 fixes this issue as well as getting rid of the annoying full screen app selection. Newsflash Microsoft: I like to -
    1. still see what I'm working on
    2. occasionally drag & drop things to the startup folder
    3. use buttons like network, run, etc and don't always want to use keybaord shortcuts
    The problem with Start8 (and the like) are that you will never adapt to Microsofts new workflow. As much as you may hate it, just use it and you will learn it and adapt to it. Now you will just get used to how Start8 does things....


    Quote Originally Posted by tigertop1 View Post
    Why can't Microsoft give us a dual boot option OS, call it 9 or whatever, incorporating the latest developments on both 8.1 and 7?
    You've got it, it just isn't dual boot. Windows 8.1 is Windows RT with the Windows 7 desktop.
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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    The problem with Start8 (and the like) are that you will never adapt to Microsofts new workflow. As much as you may hate it, just use it and you will learn it and adapt to it. Now you will just get used to how Start8 does things....
    Here you are undoubtedly right... I must be getting old and set in my ways
    I'll be happy with Start8 for another year or two at least, I suspect!

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    ....

    The problem with Start8 (and the like) are that you will never adapt to Microsofts new workflow. As much as you may hate it, just use it and you will learn it and adapt to it. Now you will just get used to how Start8 does things....
    Quite right, I will never adapt to MS new workflow. I don't "hate" the new UI exactly. It just tries to force me to work the way MS want me to, and it ain't happening. Not now, not in the future.

    See, my view is that there are things I have to do, and things I want/like to do with PCs. Almost all of the things I need to do can :-

    1) Be done quite happily with existing OS (Win7) and existing software.
    2) Don't need an internet connection.

    That suggests, to me, those requirements are perfectly met by systems kept on Win 7, and not net-connected.

    Those few things that need a net connection, like browsing forums, email, etc, can be done from any Linux machine just as easily as from Windows .... or, hell, from an Android tablet.

    As long as I can use Start8, or something like it, to get Windows to behave how I want it, fine. That's acceptable as a solution. It's bleeping annoying to be forced into it, but I can live with it. But if that ability to use Windows the way I want ends, that marks the point at which Windows can go it's own way without me.

    I'm sure MS can come with the loss of my custom. But guess what? I can cope quite satisfactorily with the loss of Windows. It's not the only game in town, and I, personally, WILL NOT "adapt" to it. I don't need to, it doesn't do what I want, and I'm not going to. Not now, and not in the future.

    The issue for MS is .... how many people, and especially businesses, will similarly refuse?

    Bear in mind a LOT of business users are simply that, users. They aren't especially computer literate, and for their actual daily work, they neither know nor care what the OS is. What matters is what the accounting package is, or the EPOS software on their till is, or the word processing software, spreadsheet, etc., is. As soon as you change the UI, you are going to have to retrain those staff, and that opens up training them to use Linux office software, etc, or an EPOS system based on Linux not Windows, because they need to know how to use the applications they use, and neither care nor indeed need to know what the OS is. It'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

    But me? I don't hate Metro. I just don't like the way it works, don't need it, or if it comes to it, ANY more OS versions from MS. There is literally nothing at all that forces me to get used to Metro, so I'm simply not going to. And I no longer much care what MS does with Windows, because some of my machines have already been moved off of Windows, some more can be any time I need to, and some are contentedly locked into XP anyway, with no plans or need to change that.

    Bye bye, Windows. It was fun while it lasted, but as divorces go, it's been amicable. And surprisingly painless. Good luck for the future. See ya.

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    Quote Originally Posted by addz17 View Post
    I don't want my PC interface to be more like a phone, i will get no real performance increases and i hate tiles. Its not selling particularly well for good reason and i will never be "upgrading" to it.
    I agree entirely. All Windows 8 has done for me is hide things behind more menus or pointless levels of abstraction. Essentially it's just made my PC using experience worse and just needlessly more complicated.

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Quite right, I will never adapt to MS new workflow. I don't "hate" the new UI exactly. It just tries to force me to work the way MS want me to, and it ain't happening. Not now, not in the future.

    See, my view is that there are things I have to do, and things I want/like to do with PCs. Almost all of the things I need to do can :-

    1) Be done quite happily with existing OS (Win7) and existing software.
    2) Don't need an internet connection.

    That suggests, to me, those requirements are perfectly met by systems kept on Win 7, and not net-connected.

    Those few things that need a net connection, like browsing forums, email, etc, can be done from any Linux machine just as easily as from Windows .... or, hell, from an Android tablet.

    As long as I can use Start8, or something like it, to get Windows to behave how I want it, fine. That's acceptable as a solution. It's bleeping annoying to be forced into it, but I can live with it. But if that ability to use Windows the way I want ends, that marks the point at which Windows can go it's own way without me.
    Surely by extending that argument you should really be using vista? Or maybe even XP?
    I'm sure MS can come with the loss of my custom. But guess what? I can cope quite satisfactorily with the loss of Windows. It's not the only game in town, and I, personally, WILL NOT "adapt" to it. I don't need to, it doesn't do what I want, and I'm not going to. Not now, and not in the future.

    The issue for MS is .... how many people, and especially businesses, will similarly refuse?

    Bear in mind a LOT of business users are simply that, users. They aren't especially computer literate, and for their actual daily work, they neither know nor care what the OS is. What matters is what the accounting package is, or the EPOS software on their till is, or the word processing software, spreadsheet, etc., is. As soon as you change the UI, you are going to have to retrain those staff, and that opens up training them to use Linux office software, etc, or an EPOS system based on Linux not Windows, because they need to know how to use the applications they use, and neither care nor indeed need to know what the OS is. It'll be interesting to see how that pans out.
    Windows has drastically changed UI what, 3 times ever (win 3, 95 and then 8)? If we're talking consistency of approach Linux is certainly not the poster child in that area. You've also got the double issue of business of any decent size typically having at least one custom app support, and for small businesses things like sage not having a linux port, no banks providing linux drivers for their smartcard authentication systems etc. Its the same kind of chicken & egg scenario you've got with games on linux.

    You'd also be surprised how fast general users adapt to windows 8. I actually think its harder for tech savvy people. I've just finished taking part in a 2 month pilot of the new lenovo convertibles at work, and the vast majority of the (typically 45+ hunt and stab typing) pilot group found them significantly easier to use than their current windows 7 machines. This is despite the fact that they had gone from a 15" 1280*800 screen to an 11.6" 1080p one, and all the fun and games with font scaling that entails.
    But me? I don't hate Metro. I just don't like the way it works, don't need it, or if it comes to it, ANY more OS versions from MS. There is literally nothing at all that forces me to get used to Metro, so I'm simply not going to. And I no longer much care what MS does with Windows, because some of my machines have already been moved off of Windows, some more can be any time I need to, and some are contentedly locked into XP anyway, with no plans or need to change that.

    Bye bye, Windows. It was fun while it lasted, but as divorces go, it's been amicable. And surprisingly painless. Good luck for the future. See ya.
    IMO microsoft are missing a trick by making it harder to get shell replacements, I reckon there'd actually a pretty big market in business land for an even more constrained interface. Literally 8 buttons would cater for every program 90+% of staff need to use in our organisation (notes, IE, word, excel, ppt, the credit system & the accounting system).

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    Quote Originally Posted by herulach View Post
    Surely by extending that argument you should really be using vista? Or maybe even XP?

    ...
    Well, I never was a Vista fan, but you have a point re: XP. Indeed, I've had the 'argument' on here several times precisely because several of my machines still run XP. Without rehashing all the reasoning behind that, it includes the fact that, for those machines, XP does all I need, so why go through the hassle, or even cost, if upgrading them?

    So yes, to a point and for some machines, you have a point re: XP.

    But some other machines are, first, FAR more powerful hardware-wise, and secondly, doing things that require it. For instance, 64-bit OS and Photoshop. And Office.

    On that subject, I have latter versions of Photoshop, but realistically, I can do everything I need on, may Photoshop CS. I know that because before kater versions came out, I was doing it on CS. In fact, I could revert to about PS4 and do what I need. Ditto Office. A couple of my machines have later versions of Office, but I could revert to, say, Office 2000, even Office 97, and do all I actually need.

    In either case, going back to the old versions wpuld feel a bit clunky, UI-wise, but (IMHO of course) far, FAR less clunky than that utterly horrid MUI tile-based abortion.




    Quote Originally Posted by herulach View Post
    ....

    Windows has drastically changed UI what, 3 times ever (win 3, 95 and then 8)? If we're talking consistency of approach Linux is certainly not the poster child in that area. You've also got the double issue of business of any decent size typically having at least one custom app support, and for small businesses things like sage not having a linux port, no banks providing linux drivers for their smartcard authentication systems etc. Its the same kind of chicken & egg scenario you've got with games on linux.

    You'd also be surprised how fast general users adapt to windows 8. I actually think its harder for tech savvy people. I've just finished taking part in a 2 month pilot of the new lenovo convertibles at work, and the vast majority of the (typically 45+ hunt and stab typing) pilot group found them significantly easier to use than their current windows 7 machines. This is despite the fact that they had gone from a 15" 1280*800 screen to an 11.6" 1080p one, and all the fun and games with font scaling that entails.

    IMO microsoft are missing a trick by making it harder to get shell replacements, I reckon there'd actually a pretty big market in business land for an even more constrained interface. Literally 8 buttons would cater for every program 90+% of staff need to use in our organisation (notes, IE, word, excel, ppt, the credit system & the accounting system).
    Agreed on shell replacements. All MS needed to have done to keep me quiet over Win8 is to give the option to switch MUI off. After all, I disabled a lot of the cobblers in Win7, like Aero, after playing with it for about 5 minutes. Okay, 2 days. I turn folder options back how I like it, etc,.

    I can cope with Win8, given Start8 (or anyone one of several others that, with varying degrees of sucess, de-MUI win 8). What worries me is the apparent trajectory MS are taking, to force users to adapt to their new way of thinking. The lack of an option to disable MUI, which IMHO was of no use and considerable hindrance to those using purely desktop applications (like me), speaks to that trajectory, and this Threshold line reinforces it.

    It seems to me that their trajectory is, first, to force users into MUI because vast nu, brrs of desktop users would probably go for a consistent tablet/mobile interface rather than get used to something new. But to get there, MS have to get their desktop OS users used to MUI, and for me, the MUI mindset is simply not right for a desktop environment.

    And next, MS (and the likes of Google, etc) want us all using cloud-based apps, or storage, or better yet, both. Why? So they can start charging for them. It have clearly already started. You either end up paying a subscription (Office 365), or you get data-mined for advertising (Google) or you get "free" services which will no doubt cease being free, other than perhaps basic but inadequate levels, once user numbers for that service reach critical jass.

    So, I'm simply not going there. I'm not paying a subscription for computer services that I can quite happily provide for myself on hardware I either already own, or am prepared to invest in. And I categorically am not, EVER, putting myself in a situation where I am reliant on MS, Google or whomever-the-hell to get access to my own data.

    I therefore am simply not prepared to go down the route MS, and others, are trying to take us. I will run my own hardware, I WILL keep my data under my own control, and I will upgrade when and if, and only if, it suits me to do so .... not least because not all "upgrades" are actually positive improvements. For example, a recent Android app for BBC News where the 'upgrade' was mainly to support push-notification which, grsnted, you have to opt in for, but having opted-in, opting out again wasn't an option. The hell with that.

    So yes, XP is a feasible, even attractive alternative IF it suits my needs. And yes, both Linux and previous versions of Windows have changed the UI around, but not to anything like the extent that MUI does, or with anything remotely like the long term trajectory implied by MUI.

    As far as I can see, MUI offers me NOTHING that I either want, or that is in my interest. It's entirely a marketing ploy by MS to leverage tablet and mobile phone sales off the back of desktop users, and I'm simply not doing that. Ever.

    Hence, me moving away from Windows. I don't see them backing off on this, and I'm not going where they're taking Windows. If that means giving up using MS products, or simply sticking to pre-MUI products, so be it. But Win8 with MUI? Nope. Win 8 tablet or phone? Hell no. Someone recently (sort-of) offered me a free WinRT tablet, to which my response was that it's a very kind and generous thought, but, no thanks. If MS offered me free Windows upgrades, and free Office 365, and free RT tablets and phones, for the rest of my life, provided I went MUI and cloud, I'd decline.

    So whatever it takes to avoid that is what I'll do. Win7? Fine. Win8 de-MUI'd? Fine. Linux? Sure, no problem. Revert everything to XP? If I must, yeah. Android tablet? With some reservations and usage limitations, okay.

    But Win8 with MUI? Hell will freeze over first. It is simply not for me. Ever.

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    Re: News - Plans for Microsoft’s ‘Threshold’ Windows update take shape

    XP Pro does everything I want on 5 PCs, without having to relearn new ways every year.
    Its good for my life, I'm happy & safe with Sandboxie also.
    Who needs more... non-gamer happy working at my speeds -- my brain is only 32-bit...
    A ferrari would be nice, but a Ford Escort is just as reliable.

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