News - Windows Start Menu spotted in alleged leak

[Brewster0101]

So this is like Windows 7 and Windows 8 having a baby > Windows 9

Kinda like Xp and Vista = Windows 7

[csgohan4]

Another reason for Microsoft to stop supporting Win 8 and roll on the money making train

[crossy]

There are a few out there who have spent more than five minutes learning it, have successfully learned it, and still absolutely hate it.

LOL

You're not the only one, I'm just biding my time until gaming is better supported on Linux. Games are the only reason to run Windows (IMHO) and Microsoft abandoned that ship many years ago.

Ditto here - my main machine is an obsolete laptop running an LTS Ubuntu - it causes me very little in the way of problems. Windows PC is really for games and those few apps that "work better with Windows", like Photoshop Express and dbPoweramp.

This latest (hoax?) looks like a bit of a shotgun wedding. Unecessarily imho because when MUI/Metro is used where it belongs it actually works well. I've tried touchscreen AIO, tablet and phone and it's a pretty good interface (especially on phone - prefer it to iOS and Android). Downside is when you try and force it onto unsuitable keyboard+mouse setups. But even in that there's some parts - like the new task monitor - that are pretty good upgrades.

Windows 9 is looking like it could be a good buy. And if they want to offer this hybrid start menu for Windows 7-using "refuseniks" like me then I'd be interested to try it.

[Saracen]

....

This latest (hoax?) looks like a bit of a shotgun wedding. Unecessarily imho because when MUI/Metro is used where it belongs it actually works well. I've tried touchscreen AIO, tablet and phone and it's a pretty good interface (especially on phone - prefer it to iOS and Android). Downside is when you try and force it onto unsuitable keyboard+mouse setups. But even in that there's some parts - like the new task monitor - that are pretty good upgrades.

Windows 9 is looking like it could be a good buy. And if they want to offer this hybrid start menu for Windows 7-using "refuseniks" like me then I'd be interested to try it.

That's broadly my view. My experience of MUI on touch devices is minimal, but it works okay .... even if I do find the blockiness and colours unattractive, personally. And personally, I don't really want live tiles, at all, just like I don't use widgets. The difference is, I don't get android widgets unless I install them.

But, overall, while I wouldn't rave about it, MUI works okay on touch devices.

Where I lose patience is MS trying to force it on desktop users, where for me at least, it not only does not work well at all but is a damn nuisance.

As another "refusenik", I'm NOT using Win 8, Win 9 or Win-anything else, as a mainline machine, until MS give me the option to dump MUI. Give it as an option, or by over-riding a default setting, if necessary, but give it.

Until then, I have ONE system I can boot into W8 if need be, by changing boot drive, but haven't needed to do that in, well, months.

If, and I stress IF MS actually plan to finally concede and offer users a real configuration choice on this matter, and not just another con-job, like the "return" of the Start button fiasco, then I'll give it a try. But I want to see real, hard evidence, in the form of shipping product, before I'll believe they mean it this time.

But if it proves to be some minimalist effort, barely and grudgingly conceding what they hope is just enough to shut us up, then personally, they can stuff it. And I'm certainly mot buying W8 tablets, phones, etc, until I see where they're going with this, or at all if they don't offer me a genuine desktop choice.

[Dooms]

See on my 13inch laptop I don't *hate* the 'metro' start screen, its not the end of the world to use.

On my 27inch 1440p monitor I HATE HATE HATE it because unless I'm playing a game I never have anything full screen, why would I want my start menu full screen?!

[kingpotnoodle]

pushes large numbers of users to simply refuse to 'upgrade', and others (like me) to go to the trouble of migrating both OS and apps to Linux, and to find replacement/alternative applications, it's hardly fair to characterise it as whining.

That whole course of action and it's lack of logic totally undermines the "Pro Start Menu" campaign, if the Windows Start Menu is so absolutely wonderfully amazing and Windows 7 was so much better for it then why have you jumped ship and made far more painful changes to move to Linux? It's not like Windows 7 was deleted from history and upgrading to 8.x is compulsory...

I really hope you aren't going to seriously argue that moving from Windows to Linux and as you say taking much effort with finding new applications is LESS fuss than learning how to use a Start Screen instead of a Start Menu, it's just a different application launcher, once running on the desktop 7 and 8.x are basically the same. Otherwise if learning is not possible/desired then the best option if you *really* loved the Start Menu that much would have been stick with (the perfectly serviceable) Windows 7 a while longer or use Start8.

Migrating to Linux is really just political protest because Microsoft changed something you didn't like and once "informed of their error" didn't immediately see your wisdom and change it back with a grovelling apology - it can't be the simple absence of the Start Menu itself that prompted the exodus, the menu change itself is absurdly easy to work around, learn or avoid (especially for someone capable to migrating to Linux).

I agree that leaving some form of improved Start Menu in as an option from the outset would have been a better idea, user options and customisability are good things if done right with appropriate defaults for non-technical users. Remember though the "Pro Start Menu" opinion is not the only one, I personally hated the damn thing and had been using win-key/type/enter and "Pin to taskbar" to launch programs for years, the folder tree structure was always a mess and it really sucked for non-technical users who don't know what folder the program they want is in (i.e. "Where is Norton?" ... "Oh What's Symantec?" ... "Oh there it is been looking for that for ages"). Improvement was needed, some of the changes in Windows 8 were a but under-developed but Microsoft are clearly listening to user feedback and making changes, Windows 8.1u1 is a lot better than the initial release.

[kingpotnoodle]

See on my 13inch laptop I don't *hate* the 'metro' start screen, its not the end of the world to use.

On my 27inch 1440p monitor I HATE HATE HATE it because unless I'm playing a game I never have anything full screen, why would I want my start menu full screen?!

It's a launcher, when do you ever need to look at something else whilst starting a program? Once launched you're right back to desktop just like Windows 7...

[Dooms]

It's a launcher, when do you ever need to look at something else whilst starting a program? Once launched you're right back to desktop just like Windows 7...

Ok so I working on my computer, I have a Youtube video playing which I'm watching but I want to open something else, say something really small and basic like the calculator or notepad... why should I have to open a full screen launcher, block my video, to look at my program listing when a small unintrusive box down in the bottom left does the same job without interrupting my viewing pleasure.

[Saracen]

That whole course of action and it's lack of logic totally undermines the "Pro Start Menu" campaign, if the Windows Start Menu is so absolutely wonderfully amazing and Windows 7 was so much better for it then why have you jumped ship and made far more painful changes to move to Linux? It's not like Windows 7 was deleted from history and upgrading to 8.x is compulsory...

I really hope you aren't going to seriously argue that moving from Windows to Linux and as you say taking much effort with finding new applications is LESS fuss than learning how to use a Start Screen instead of a Start Menu, it's just a different application launcher, once running on the desktop 7 and 8.x are basically the same. Otherwise if learning is not possible/desired then the best option if you *really* loved the Start Menu that much would have been stick with (the perfectly serviceable) Windows 7 a while longer or use Start8.

Migrating to Linux is really just political protest because Microsoft changed something you didn't like and once "informed of their error" didn't immediately see your wisdom and change it back with a grovelling apology - it can't be the simple absence of the Start Menu itself that prompted the exodus, the menu change itself is absurdly easy to work around, learn or avoid (especially for someone capable to migrating to Linux).

I agree that leaving some form of improved Start Menu in as an option from the outset would have been a better idea, user options and customisability are good things if done right with appropriate defaults for non-technical users. Remember though the "Pro Start Menu" opinion is not the only one, I personally hated the damn thing and had been using win-key/type/enter and "Pin to taskbar" to launch programs for years, the folder tree structure was always a mess and it really sucked for non-technical users who don't know what folder the program they want is in (i.e. "Where is Norton?" ... "Oh What's Symantec?" ... "Oh there it is been looking for that for ages"). Improvement was needed, some of the changes in Windows 8 were a but under-developed but Microsoft are clearly listening to user feedback and making changes, Windows 8.1u1 is a lot better than the initial release.

My first reference point is that MS didn't have to make the change compulsory. They chose to, and as far as I'm concerned, they did it to try to leverage phone and tablet sales off the back of numbers of installed desktop systems.

So, they foist on us a mode of operation that very large numbers of people don't like, don't want and that actively is a pain if ALL you want is desktop operation, to leverage mobile sales. They could have offered an option to turn MUI off, at install. They could have even left it on as default, but given a control panel option to turn it off for those that really wanted. Did they? Nope. In fact, initial statements were that it was too hard to do, interfered too much ... remarks given the lie by several low cost tools that do it (Start8, etc) and several more free ones (ClassicShell).

Then, there's the "return" of the "Start button" farce.

Did I switch to Linux because of MUI?

Not entirely, not on it's own, anyway. It's a culmination of a number of decisions in several areas, by MS. First, it's the direction hinted at by Office365. I'm NOT going either cloud-based, or subscription, on software like that, EVER. And while those products are (currently) only an option, and you can still buy standalone packages, I question where the path MS are on is going? Are they going to do an Adobe with Office?

Also, some of the decisions over XBox One, like 'always on', and mandatory, built-in, always-on Kinect. Well, always-on to work is not acceptable to me, and a built-in always-on Kinect is simply not getting a place in my house under ANY circumstances.

Then, there's MS's increasingly persistent drive to coax, pressurise or nearly force users to have an MS account, and to make it increasingly hard to find how to install Win8 with a "local" account. And, increasing integration of Cloud services into their products.

So no, it wasn't MUI, on it's own, that forced me to evaluate Linux, and Linux apps. It was increasing nervousness that MS are going down a path I'm not prepared to agree to, and that sooner or later, "pressure" would turn into an Adobe-style 'take it or leave it'. And, in preparation for leaving it, I decided to invest some time in exploring alternatives.

One, for some time at least, is to stay with Win7. And, I have with one system. I also have some (secure) XP systems and they'll stay on XP until they clutch their chests and drop dead.

But I wanted to know what my options were, and just how much pain moving to Linux would be? The answer is .... a fair bit, but nowhere near as much as I thought. Various distros have come a LONG way since last time I looked, some years ago, both in the basic OS implementation, and the range, breadth and sophistication of available applications.

To be honest, for power users, Linux still takes some getting your head around if you're not familiar, but purely from the perspective if someone that justs want to use it, both installation of the OS and installing applications via package management is, if anything, quite a bit slicker and easier than Windows.

And while I quite like Unity, for instance, it is again a case of getting your head round it. But, don't like it? Install a different launcher, and disable Unity. Or just pick a different distro with a different UI pre-installed.

Had MS done that, let me say "no" to MUI, I may well never have looked at Linux seriously, not as anything beyond having a dabble .... unless they do go down that path I won't go down. If they do, I'm ready. In fact, for most of my purposes, I'm quite happy with Ubuntu, and don't even mind Unity that much.

And, as I boot my main machine from a removable drive, I can boot from Win7, Win 8, Linux, etc, whenever I wish. Changing drives ( before boot, or after power down, of course) takes about 5 seconds.

The result is, I'm not locked in, could abandon any future MS OS entirely and just stick with Win 7 or Linux unless I *have* to be in Win8 (like for testing) easily, so I'm not really bothered what MS do in future releases because I'll only use them if I wish to. Everything I need to do I can do, and am comfortable with, on Linux. I've found acceptable solutions for almost everything I need to do, and some of the rest won't even run on Win7, never mind Linux or W8. Hence, the XP stuff.

[jim]

And while I quite like Unity, for instance, it is again a case of getting your head round it. But, don't like it? Install a different launcher, and disable Unity. Or just pick a different distro with a different UI pre-installed.

That's not hugely dissimilar to purchasing Start8 for $5 though, is it?

[kingpotnoodle]

Ok so I working on my computer, I have a Youtube video playing which I'm watching but I want to open something else, say something really small and basic like the calculator or notepad... why should I have to open a full screen launcher, block my video, to look at my program listing when a small unintrusive box down in the bottom left does the same job without interrupting my viewing pleasure.

If you're watching it so closely that the 1-2 seconds it takes to hit start, type calc and press enter is ruining your viewing pleasure then why are you launching the calculator (i.e. doing something other than watching) in the first place?

[TheAnimus]

If you're watching it so closely that the 1-2 seconds it takes to hit start, type calc and press enter is ruining your viewing pleasure then why are you launching the calculator (i.e. doing something other than watching) in the first place?

or use Win + R if you know what it is you are wanting.

[Saracen]

That's not hugely dissimilar to purchasing Start8 for $5 though, is it?

Depends how you look at it. One option is installing a distro with the GUI you want. Another is that I had to buy Win 8, or successors, in order to find I'm being jerked about. With Linux, I can try as many version and variations as I wish. If I don't want Unity, install Kubuntu, for instance.

But the decision to switch is much more than that. It's overall disinclination to follow MS's apparent strategic direction, especially as they expect me to pay for it, and not an inconsiderable amount for a system including both OS and an Office variant that includes Access.

And finally, Ubuntu offers a GUI designed to be an overlay, and what I don't want can be removed entirely, and ONLY the GUI I want left. Or not installed in the first place. Can I remove MUI on Win8 entirely? I don't just mean disabled, but .... not there?

[deepblue08]

Seems like a backwards step to me, but if it stops all the whining, I'm all for it.

Whether it stops "whining" or not will depend on exactly what they do.

The daft thing is, had they given users this option, even having to find a default "off" setting, for 'classic' mode, and turn it on, there wouldn't have been any "whining" in the first place.

When a decision like this pushes large numbers of users to simply refuse to 'upgrade', and others (like me) to go to the trouble of migrating both OS and apps to Linux, and to find replacement/alternative applications, it's hardly fair to characterise it as whining. And MS clearly are coming to recognise that, first, it's a very significant body of users, and secondly, it's not a storm that'll blow over and people will give in and accept it. If they didn't realise that, however belatedly, they wouldn't keep trying to get round it.

My remaining issue is EXACTLY what these changes actually are, when and indeed IF they actually appear. Whatever, I won't trust it until it's released after the last time when "returning the start button" proved to be PR exercise, not what they implied. That was when I finally gave up in frustration at their cynicism and migrated several systems to Linux.

Now, to be honest, I don't really much care what they do with Win8/9. If it's a genuine inclusion of lost options, it MIGHT mean I upgrade the systems I sometimes boot into Win7. But frankly, I don't trust that MS have had an actual Damascene conversion, and I rather suspect it'll at best be a delaying tactic, and at worst, another "start button back" piece of cynical spin.

I'll admit the release of Windows 8 was a time for Linux fans to shine and preach their philosophy. But when someone goes through the effort of moving several machines from Windows to Linux just because you do not like the new interface - yeah, that IS whining. Let's be honest here, the interface may be weird, but the system is generally the same; the effort it would take to switch all functionality to a Linux machine is not worth the effort unless backed up by useless rage, it took me 2 days to get used to Windows 8, wow tragic.

[tygrus]

Keep the Start Menu data in memory (don't swap nor have to re-read from disk). Try to limit the number of first level categories and stop all-and-sundry each creating 1 or more 1st level folders per app/version. Start with simple list and allow user to create a few extra but recommend <=12 eg. start with Accessories, Games, Hardware, Internet, Multimedia, Office, Utilities. Make it easier to re-organise and simplify with recommendations based on popular usage and simplicity. I don't like Microsoft et. al. "Defaults".

[ByteMyAscii]

Seems like a backwards step to me, but if it stops all the whining, I'm all for it.

People only call it whining because they can't come up with any constructive arguments as to why those people are wrong.
Because they are not.
Windows 8 was simply trying to push a UI with far too much of a touch-orientated design.
The numerous u-turns since make that very clear to anyone not in denial.
As OPTIONAL features they aren't a problem, but dictating it was those or nothing was simply wrong.
Let people discover which they like, rather than deciding for them.