News - Windows Start Menu spotted in alleged leak

[ByteMyAscii]

Cross-System standards do not need to be, and should not be a forced unification of a UI on multiple factors and input forms.
There is a very good reason why the iMac and iPad do not share identical UI's.

Cross-system standards can be shared functionality but the UI needs to suit the device, the hardware and the users.
They can never be the same on everything.
Common sense, ironically called for not being that common.

[Corky34]

I'll admit the release of Windows 8 was a time for Linux fans to shine and preach their philosophy. But when someone goes through the effort of moving several machines from Windows to Linux just because you do not like the new interface - yeah, that IS whining. Let's be honest here, the interface may be weird, but the system is generally the same; the effort it would take to switch all functionality to a Linux machine is not worth the effort unless backed up by useless rage, it took me 2 days to get used to Windows 8, wow tragic.

Doesn't it go a lot deeper than just not liking the new interface ?
I too don't like the road Microsoft is heading down, or the amount of times they have done an about face and abandoned what they once gave their backing to.

Are there still people that doubt Microsoft is going down the road marked cloud drive, with everyone having to pay a toll every mile they travel, Windows 8.x is just the first steps down that road.
Going on rumors Windows 9 will take us further down that road with its new activation method, forcing everyone to have a Microsoft account with payment details stored on it.

For those of you old enough you will remember Microsoft standing resolutely behind the PC as a gaming platform, it's one of the reasons (imho) that Windows 95 was such a success with people standing outside shops waiting to get their hands on a copy. It's why they released a new version of DirectX almost yearly, it's why they fought so hard in the battle between DirectX and OpenGL, even though (imho) OpenGL and the 3DFX cards were the superior standard they lost because of some questionable tactics.

Then Microsoft decided to "shift its focus" because they saw Sony's PlayStation as a threat to the then dominant choice of people who wanted a gaming system (Windows), so they released their own gaming console. Since that time Microsoft (imho) abandoned gaming on a PC after having spent the good part of 15 years singing its praises, now we are lucky if we get a new version of DirectX when Microsoft release the next gen console. It's one of the main reason sited for AMD developing Mantle, because developers were crying out for an API that would let them get closer to metal on the PC and Microsoft was either refusing or dragging its feet, it's (imho) one of the reasons Valve is developing SteamOS.

IMHO we are seeing the same thing happening now with Microsoft shifting its focus from the desktop to its new mobile first cloud first strategy, for years Microsoft has been the king of the corporate and desktop space, but just as they saw Sony as a threat all those years ago they now see Google as a threat.

[crossy]

That's not hugely dissimilar to purchasing Start8 for $5 though, is it?

Erm yes it is, what Saracen was getting at was that if you don't like Ubuntu Unity, (or Suse-KDE), then it's pretty easy to load a whole new UI and continue with that. Or, go "old skool" and ditch the GUI and go command line instead! That is definitely NOT the same as reintroducing one (small?) UI element.

Said it before - that's the major problem with Windows - everything is so tightly integrated.

If you're watching it so closely that the 1-2 seconds it takes to hit start, type calc and press enter is ruining your viewing pleasure then why are you launching the calculator (i.e. doing something other than watching) in the first place?

Your either missing the point or the example wasn't the best. The point is that you've got a massive context switch to have to go from desktop+app to MUI and then back again. Best analogy I've heard is that your new Windows8 car won't allow you to switch on lights/radio/lights without using the ignition key. So everytime you want to put on some music, wash windows, etc you've to stop, turn off the car, carry out your new settings then restart and pull off again.

or use Win + R if you know what it is you are wanting.

Granted, but that's a workaround for what is, on desktop at least, a poor UI. And I guarantee that if I pass that onto the folks complaining about MUI then they'll be appreciative but loudly wonder why this kind of "geekery" is needed.

@Saracen, post #25 I totally agree with.

[shaithis]

Going on rumors Windows 9 will take us further down that road with its new activation method, forcing everyone to have a Microsoft account with payment details stored on it.

and there is the problem with rumours, they are often wrong!

No way that's ever going to happen unless Microsoft want to lose their corporate market....and when things like Exchange and SQL Server make them such huge amounts of money, I cannot see that happening any time soon.

[crossy]

I'll admit the release of Windows 8 was a time for Linux fans to shine and preach their philosophy. But when someone goes through the effort of moving several machines from Windows to Linux just because you do not like the new interface - yeah, that IS whining. Let's be honest here, the interface may be weird, but the system is generally the same; the effort it would take to switch all functionality to a Linux machine is not worth the effort unless backed up by useless rage, it took me 2 days to get used to Windows 8, wow tragic.

When you say "get used to Windows 8" do you mean that you managed to get comfortable with it, or that you managed to find ways around the UI? And you're also doing the naysayers a massive disservice by stereotyping them as "whiners". A lot of those folks - especially on Hexus - are pretty technically literate and in some cases were Windows advocates.

I'll also point out that it's definitely NOT "whining" to want to be able to carry out your workflow with the same rapidity/ease-of-use as before. Anything that makes you slower, or less able to do those tasks is to be regarded with scorn.

While I admire - and understand - Microsoft's motives, all this backtracking is pretty much proof that the "one size (/UI) fits all" philosophy is flawed.

You're right though that Windows 8 was yet another missed opportunity for a big push for Linux on the desktop. Interesting thought that you seem to suggest that this is a big undertaking, when if you're talking about basic use then a switch to Linux ISN'T necessarily a big effort - and I'm speaking from multiple experiences.

[Corky34]

and there is the problem with rumours, they are often wrong!

No way that's ever going to happen unless Microsoft want to lose their corporate market....and when things like Exchange and SQL Server make them such huge amounts of money, I cannot see that happening any time soon.

Doesn't that depend on the source ? Some are more reliable than others, no ?
AFAIK the Russian hacker group WZor has a fairly good track record of being correct when it comes to leaks, and the writing is on the wall (imho) with Office going down the subscription based method. Obviously only time will tell if we see a Windows 365 but with Microsoft's new mantra being Mobile First, Cloud first things do appear to be heading that way.

As for the corporate market, it's actually cheaper for them to pay yearly subscriptions to Office 365 versus 3-4 normal office licenses every 5 or so years, Computer World has a
handy calculator that shows the costs of the different licensing models.

[scaryjim]

... As for the corporate market, it's actually cheaper for them to pay yearly subscriptions to Office 365 versus 3-4 normal office licenses every 5 or so years ....

You do realise that a big corporate won't be buying 3 - 4 licenses though, right? They'll be buying tens of thousands, using enterprise licensing models. The computer world calculator is utterly worthless for those kinds of calculations. Many of those corporate clients will need to have proven confidentiality for handling & processing sensitive personal data. Cloud based processing simply doesn't provide that (and remember it's the corporation's duty to ensure the data is secure, not Microsoft's). So there will always be a need for Enterprise software that is stand-alone and free from any need for accounts, cloud-based log in etc. MS simply can't afford to turn its back on that market.

[aidanjt]

I'll admit the release of Windows 8 was a time for Linux fans to shine and preach their philosophy. But when someone goes through the effort of moving several machines from Windows to Linux just because you do not like the new interface - yeah, that IS whining.

If someone sells you a hammer, and what you get in the mail is a hollow plastic hammer-like object, is it 'whinning' when you complain that the hammer is not, in fact, a practical usable tool fit for the purpose intended? Why should I have to buy an osmium head addon to make the plastic hammer useful? Wouldn't I in fact just be far better off buying a proper steel head hammer with a solid shaft in the first place? Stating that a tool is badly designed isn't whining, it's perfectly valid (and correct) opinion.

Let's be honest here, the interface may be weird, but the system is generally the same; the effort it would take to switch all functionality to a Linux machine is not worth the effort unless backed up by useless rage, it took me 2 days to get used to Windows 8, wow tragic.

No, it isn't the same. It's half tablet OS, and half Windows, and Windows was made to take a back seat at every turn. To *require* 3rd party software to make your operating system usable as a desktop OS is just an inexcusably awful design decision. 3rd party software shouldn't be required to buy (on top of the cost of the OS license, no less) just to make it useful, it should be useful out of the box.

So how much effort does it take to get functional Linux desktop? Take a NUC, stick some RAM, a mSATA, and a wifi card in there, insert USB thumb drive, power on, click next a few times, 10 minutes later, and you're done, you now have a fully functional Linux desktop, oh go on then, I suppose we can install the updates, then ubuntu-restricted-extras package for flash and patented codecs support, and reboot, once, to start the new updated kernel. I may have to take a long sleep after all that effort.

Lets compare that to Windows 8, shall we? Take a NUC, stick some RAM, a mSATA, and a wifi card in there, insert USB thumb drive, power on, click next a few times, 15 minutes later it reboots, another 15 minutes it reboots again, then wait another 5 minutes or so, then click next another bunch of times, then go to websites of the manufacturers of the hardware components (lucky enough the NUC is all Intel hardware, if you stick an intel wifi card in there), install all the drivers, reboot, start windows update, install the 8.1 update (make sure to uncheck the other updates, because they're useless), reboot, reboot, start windows update, install post 8.1 updates, reboot, start windows update, install updates, reboot, keep doing that until it's done with all the updates, then go to the developer websites of 50-100 different self-installer software packages you need, install each of those packages individually, will likely have to reboot a few more times, now make a point to install a start menu restoration application, go into all the various windows settings that have been scattered into the wind, and change them to make it behave more like a desktop operating system and we're do.... oh, and because those packages came with Microsoft dependencies, windows updates will probably have a few more update and reboot cycles hiding in wait for you.. now look at clock, and realise it's morning and you have to be at work in 45 minutes and scramble.

Just because you're accustomed to the grind that comes with Windows, it doesn't mean it's effortless, simple, or quick.

[Corky34]

You do realise that a big corporate won't be buying 3 - 4 licenses though, right? They'll be buying tens of thousands, using enterprise licensing models. The computer world calculator is utterly worthless for those kinds of calculations. Many of those corporate clients will need to have proven confidentiality for handling & processing sensitive personal data. Cloud based processing simply doesn't provide that (and remember it's the corporation's duty to ensure the data is secure, not Microsoft's). So there will always be a need for Enterprise software that is stand-alone and free from any need for accounts, cloud-based log in etc. MS simply can't afford to turn its back on that market.

From the 3-4 licenses mark upwards it costs less and less to go for the subscription based model, for an office with 3 users, updating once every 5 years it works out $220 per user, versus $167 per user for Office 365, when the amount of users goes up it only gets cheaper per user, with 5 users it costs $100 per user. So as you can see the more users you have the cheaper it is to go via a subscription based model.

As for corporate clients needing proof of confidentiality for handling & processing sensitive data, Office 365 has a long list of approved compliance standards, such as HIPAA, DPAs, FISMA, ISO 27001, The EU Data Protection Directive, U.S.–EU Safe Harbor framework, FERPA, SSAE16 SOC 1 Type I and Type II, PIPEDA, and GLBA.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being an advocate for this cloud based nonsense, personally no matter how many compliancy stickers they slap on something i still only trust one thing, myself.
Then there's the disadvantage of it actually costing more once you go under the 3-4 user mark, such as it costing a single user who only upgrades when Office reaches EOL significantly more, the normal licensing model would cost a single user $220 over 8 years, versus $800 for Office 365 over the same period

[Saracen]

When you say "get used to Windows 8" do you mean that you managed to get comfortable with it, or that you managed to find ways around the UI? And you're also doing the naysayers a massive disservice by stereotyping them as "whiners". A lot of those folks - especially on Hexus - are pretty technically literate and in some cases were Windows advocates.

I'll also point out that it's definitely NOT "whining" to want to be able to carry out your workflow with the same rapidity/ease-of-use as before. Anything that makes you slower, or less able to do those tasks is to be regarded with scorn.

While I admire - and understand - Microsoft's motives, all this backtracking is pretty much proof that the "one size (/UI) fits all" philosophy is flawed.

....

Quite so.

....

You're right though that Windows 8 was yet another missed opportunity for a big push for Linux on the desktop. Interesting thought that you seem to suggest that this is a big undertaking, when if you're talking about basic use then a switch to Linux ISN'T necessarily a big effort - and I'm speaking from multiple experiences.

I sort-of agree, and sort-of don't, about the required effort.

Installing Linux is pretty easy, and I think it's slicker and easier than Windows. It can get pretty intimidating for non-techy users if they drop to command line, BUT .... the same is true of Windows, and like Windows, many users will rarely, if indeed ever, need to do so.

Where switching does take effort is deciding WHICH Linux to use. And then, having picked (for instance) which particular distro .... what interface, what is or isn't built-in or pre-installed, etc. Many Linux afficionados seem to assume a level of knowledge in newcomers that they don't have. It's like trying to explain how to run a 110m hurdles, or to train to Olympic level, when the newcomer is really asking "what do you mean by 'walk'? "

Then, of course, the really tricky bit starts.

If you're a long-term Windows user, you'll gave a lot of "standard" applications, be it AV scanner(s), anti-malware, firewall, email client, backup and/or file sync software, and so on, not to mention major software, like an Office suite to replace MS Office, and in my case, Photoshop, Coreldraw, and others.

And I don't mean working out that OpenOffice/Libre can replace MSOffice. I mean just how compatible some aspects really are. For instance, I have some customised spreadsheets, including some developed for clients, using conditional formatting, data entry validation, macro's, and so on. Does EVERYTHING work, and work properly? The answer, by the way, is "no".

Clearly, if I'm developing a spreadsheet for a user running Win7 and Office 2003, I need to test for that environment. Experience tells me to know what the client is using (and not necessarily rely on what he says he is), and to make sure your proposal includes that data ().

So switching to Linux is pretty easy, in itself, but selecting precisely which variant to use, and which applications when you need replacements, and that they will do the job, that's not so easy.

That I was prepared to do it should tell those that think it's whining that it was a lot more than that, even if they didn't read the post where I explained it.

[jim]

From the 3-4 licenses mark upwards it costs less and less to go for the subscription based model, for an office with 3 users, updating once every 5 years it works out $220 per user, versus $167 per user for Office 365, when the amount of users goes up it only gets cheaper per user, with 5 users it costs $100 per user. So as you can see the more users you have the cheaper it is to go via a subscription based model.

As for corporate clients needing proof of confidentiality for handling & processing sensitive data, Office 365 has a long list of approved compliance standards, such as HIPAA, DPAs, FISMA, ISO 27001, The EU Data Protection Directive, U.S.–EU Safe Harbor framework, FERPA, SSAE16 SOC 1 Type I and Type II, PIPEDA, and GLBA.

Corporates will get volume discounts for normal Office products as well though, I'm sure.

And no matter how many validations they have, big companies will have a lot of data security requirements that they need to adhere to. In the case of banks, legal firms, auditors etc even more so - and it would require far more than a few compliance standards for them to hand it over to a third party and stake their entire reputation on someone else's commitment to security.

[Corky34]

They probably do get VLC discounts, but i still don't think that would be comparative to the subscription based model, at least not at this time as Microsoft is pricing it specifically to attract the corporate sector. If Microsoft can get people using Office 365 at work they are probably more likely to use Office 365 at home when their current version of office reaches EOL, and they are faced with having to replace it for around £180, versus £60 for 365, my betting is that the majority of those people won't look at the extra long term costs involved.

There is no doubt there are some companies that have a lot of data security requirements, but they are an infinitesimally small part of the market, Microsoft has abandoned one group of users to chase the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow in the past, and the recent changes with Windows 8 just goes to highlight how unconcerned they are about a minority group of users when they have bigger fish to fry.
AFAIK Windows, once you take into account all operating systems on all devices, phone, tablets, desktops, etc, etc, only has a %14 market share, it seems to me, as i spoke about in a previous post, that Microsoft is perfectly happy to abandon one segment of a market to chase after the next big thing, that's why i think people not liking Windows 8.x goes a lot deeper than just not liking the new interface, it's because Microsoft made the choice to once again shift its focus to chase after the mobile segment of the market, at the cost of the desktop market.

As Saracen alluded to, it goes beyond just a change of interface IMHO, it's a lot more complex that just not liking the GUI that comes with an operating system, do you want to be tied to the whims and fancies of Microsoft next time they decide to chase the next big thing.

[Saracen]

I'll admit the release of Windows 8 was a time for Linux fans to shine and preach their philosophy. But when someone goes through the effort of moving several machines from Windows to Linux just because you do not like the new interface - yeah, that IS whining. Let's be honest here, the interface may be weird, but the system is generally the same; the effort it would take to switch all functionality to a Linux machine is not worth the effort unless backed up by useless rage, it took me 2 days to get used to Windows 8, wow tragic.

If you'd bothered to read what I actually said, you'd know it's not "just because you do not like the interface".

Did I switch to Linux because of MUI?

Not entirely, not on it's own, anyway. It's a culmination of a number of decisions in several areas, by MS. First, it's the direction hinted at by Office365. I'm NOT going either cloud-based, or subscription, on software like that, EVER ....

Also, some of the decisions over XBox One, like 'always on', and mandatory, built-in, always-on Kinect. Well, always-on to work is not acceptable to me ....

Then, there's MS's increasingly persistent drive to coax, pressurise or nearly force users to have an MS account, ....

So no, it wasn't MUI, on it's own, that forced me to evaluate Linux, and Linux apps. It was increasing nervousness that MS are going down a path I'm not prepared to agree to, and that sooner or later, "pressure" would turn into an Adobe-style 'take it or leave it'. And, in preparation for leaving it, I decided to invest some time in exploring alternatives.

It's not, in any sense, "useless rage". Nor, for that matter, am I a Linux fan, whether preaching a philosophy or not. Far from it. My first use of Windows was developing demonstration systems for banks, under Windows / Windows 2. And I've been using Windows, and a LOT of MS apps, including Office, for many years. I've dabbled in Linux, and have some modest Unix background many years ago too, but until this point, had never really seen the need to switch. Hardly proselytising, is it?

But, the fact remains that a number of things led me to consider what the writing on the wall may be. It's not even just MS, but includes some statements made by senior MS executives, and it seems clear to me that they, and others, consider that we are on a path to more and more being internet-based, with cloud storage, cloud services, etc, and that THAT inevitably leads to a change in the financial models of these companies, moving away from buying an indefinite licence to use a product, to what is basically subscribing. It smooths out their cash flow, for a start, but also removes the inherent uncertainty when developing a new version of how many people will, and will not, decice to upgrade, versus staying with the current model.

I'm not prepared to sign up for that, for all that it has some advantages.

It's not "useless rage" that led me to investigate what my alternatives might be, including if there were any. And indeed, it turns out there were. It's a hard-headed business decision to investigate, and preserve my options. And that implies being sure if an alternative actually is a viable alternative or not, and the implications.

One implication is that IF my clients go for MS subscription services on Windows, I'd either have to too, or not be able to test. Fortunately, I can be picky as to what jobs I do or don't take. Which led me to wonder, what happens if I propose Linux solutions to clients. So I asked. The very first said he'd been meaning to ask about Linux, how much difference it would make to his needs, etc. Well, one job was six 'workstations', where the need is about 99% data entry into customised spreadsheets, and 1% WP. So, I set up a Win8 and Linux system, with those spreadsheets, ide by side and he and some if his staff used both.

And his conclusion was, that for his needs, either system was fine, and it made no appreciable difference. So, he asked what Linux itself, and 6 Office suite under Linux cost? Given the answer, he's now looking long and hard at whether some existing machines should go Linux when next upgraded, and whether, in the longer term, he'd be better of going Linux entirely?

If I refuse work based on MS subscription software, I'll lose some work. Fine, I can live with that. I'll pick up some other work, too, and that's nice.

But either way, "useless rage" it is not. That's just a weak attempt at a putdown by someone that seems to fail to understand that just because you don't mind putting up with Win8, other people might have a different perspective. And solution.

[jim]

Erm yes it is, what Saracen was getting at was that if you don't like Ubuntu Unity, (or Suse-KDE), then it's pretty easy to load a whole new UI and continue with that. Or, go "old skool" and ditch the GUI and go command line instead! That is definitely NOT the same as reintroducing one (small?) UI element.

My point was more that if you're happy to expend a bit of effort to get a new UI that you like in Linux, it's not massively dissimilar to spending $5 to go from W8 UI to what is effectively the W7 UI.

[Saracen]

My point was more that if you're happy to expend a bit of effort to get a new UI that you like in Linux, it's not massively dissimilar to spending $5 to go from W8 UI to what is effectively the W7 UI.

Or use Classicshell and save the $5. If that was all it was about, maybe I would, even though I'd resent having to install 3rd party util's, let alone having to pay for them, just to undo what MS did to the UI to suit their strategic position, not to benefit users.

I certainly wouldn't mind if the UI was a huge improvement, on the desktop, over the previous UI, but it's so self-evidently a kludge to shoehorn in touch compatibility. It'd be worth it if it was a huge improvement. But I resent having to do that over a UI that makes my day-to-day usage actually worse than it was before they started, and especially when all the had to do was give users the option to choose whether to use it. What I resent is having to muck about with 3rd party tools to undo what MS tried to force us to use.

And THAT is the core of why I've moved several systems - because MS have demonstrated, several times now, a propensity to trying to force things that only benefit them, on users, even when they're a detriment to the users.

In short, I no longer even slightly trust either MS's agenda, or executive mindset.

[crossy]

They probably do get VLC discounts, but i still don't think that would be comparative to the subscription based model, at least not at this time as Microsoft is pricing it specifically to attract the corporate sector. If Microsoft can get people using Office 365 at work they are probably more likely to use Office 365 at home when their current version of office reaches EOL, and they are faced with having to replace it for around £180, versus £60 for 365, my betting is that the majority of those people won't look at the extra long term costs involved.

Microsoft might be able to get the small to medium sized businesses to switch to Office 365, but I honestly can't see either the public sector nor large (/enterprise) customers wanting to switch wholesale. First off there's the issue of price - with "conventional" Office being priced so low that Office365 would pretty much have to be free to be a better deal. Secondly, and here Saracen maybe nodding, Office365 is a cloud produce, which is fine and dandy if those cloud servers are exclusively under the customers control, but that's not the way that Office365 is being sold.

And in a interesting perversion of your argument, if "conventional" Office is also being offered to enterprise employees at those low prices (e.g. less than the cost of three months issues of a mainstream computer mag) then why would those employees really want to bother with the '365 product?

(Thanks sent for post #34 - good post - unfortunately have to use "thanks" rather than "like" or similar which would have been more appropriate)

My point was more that if you're happy to expend a bit of effort to get a new UI that you like in Linux, it's not massively dissimilar to spending $5 to go from W8 UI to what is effectively the W7 UI.

Okay, so Start8 etc can go W8->W7. My point was that with Linux I can (easily!) go back to the equivalents of Windows 98, 95, 3.1 or even DOS.

I certainly wouldn't mind if the UI was a huge improvement, on the desktop, over the previous UI, but it's so self-evidently a kludge to shoehorn in touch compatibility. It'd be worth it if it was a huge improvement. But I resent having to do that over a UI that makes my day-to-day usage actually worse than it was before they started, and especially when all the had to do was give users the option to choose whether to use it. What I resent is having to muck about with 3rd party tools to undo what MS tried to force us to use.

This pretty much sums up my views, and if that make me a "whiner" then so be it. Give me the ability to push MUI out of the way completely, and some way to list my installed apps and I'd be a happy bunny - even if that was a "Windows" button somewhere that just presented the same kind of list that MUI does on phones.