Next-gen AMD graphics to be codenamed 'Caribbean Islands'

[watercooled]

Yeah I understood, it's just awkward to compare when the two companies work quite differently. ATI vs Nvidia would likely have been a simpler comparison, but since the AMD merger and APU integration, it complicates things. And like I say if you include or exclude various markets you can change the numbers significantly.

It would be a bit like comparing discrete LTE modem sales; Qualcomm, Intel, Broadcom, Samsung, etc have their discrete modems. However if you look at a lot of devices with Qualcomm application processors, they have integrated modems - would you exclude those from Qualcomm's modem sales just because they're not a separate piece?

[DanceswithUnix]

Which I think brings us back around to the Steam hardware survey. What do people who care about their graphics actually use...

[watercooled]

Not necessarily though - how many of those systems do you think were fully spec'd by the user? More often than not they'll be pre-built systems, and the hardware dictated by many other factors.

I mean if you're a dev creating a game for distribution on Steam, then it likely helps to know which sort of hardware you need to target/test on, but even then it won't always be that simple. E.g. if you're planning a very graphics-intensive game, then knowing the most common GPU family is Intel HD 2000 shouldn't necessarily make that the primary target. Or put another way, the total distribution of hardware on Steam installs doesn't necessarily reflect the hardware for your target audience.

All it shows you is what it shows you - the hardware installed in systems with Steam installed, and with user permission to upload this information.

[xslavic]

20nm and AMD gets it hard.

[shaithis]

If AMD came out with a card which was 20% faster and consumed 10% less power than the GTX980,I bet it would be good effort AMD,but a little too late. If Nvidia then came out with a card 20% faster but consumed 40% more power,it would be AMD is doomed.

When the GTX580 was out - it was all about performance. When the GTX460 was out and was no faster than similar AMD cards and consumed more power - it was all about CUDA,tessellation and drivers.

When AMD had much better general purpose compute performance in many of their cards,the whole CUDA/compute thing was not important anymore.

When AMD started putting in extra features - its all half baked.

When Nvidia started putting in extra features -its the dogs bollocks.

When Nvidia was ahead of AMD in frametimes in a number of games -it was very important.

When AMD was ahead of Nvidia in frametimes in a number of games - it is not important,since Nvidia is good enough.

When AMD is cheaper and has games - they are fail.

When Nvidia is similar price or cheaper and has games - they are giving uber value.

When AMD tries to charge a similar price to Nvidia for a faster card - they are overpriced.

When Nvidia keeps its slower cards at the same price as a faster AMD card - its AMD fault or the quality is better.

Its nothing to do with being eco-minded,its perception and the same thing can be seen with Apple.

You could say the same about almost anything if you google around. I feel your being overly-selective.

And to call it perception is an insult to anyone who has made a choice based on personal experience.

I can also understand why some may be doomsayers.....has nVidia had to sell their HQ for some money in the bank? Has AMD had the resources to work with devs to optimise for hardware like nVidia do? (and if so, why haven't they?) How have AMDs linux drivers been? (I won't talk about the windows ones as they seem more hit-and-miss depending on title for both nV and AMD). Hows AMDs desktop CPU roadmap looking?

All this news will effect how people look at a company, and rightly so. When you look at the evidence, AMD is not in a strong position compared to nVidia, of course that can change in the blink of an eye....but right now they do seem a much weaker company......so you can understand (at least to a point) where the chicken-little talk comes from. It is based on something and not just pulled from someones behind.

Personally I don't think AMD are doomed, I love my little AM1 system and I am constantly building people AM1 or FM2 based HTPCs.........but for my main gaming fix I just cannot bring myself to buy an AMD card, I recently replaced a 7970 and until I see a 12 month stretch without major driver issues or certain titles running sub-standard, I won't be buying a high-end AMD card, I personally find it too much of a minefield. I see AMD becoming stronger as a whole but I also see them becoming weaker in the segment we at hexus are mainly are interested in......perhaps the doomsayers can't see further than the high-end gaming market?

[DanceswithUnix]

Not necessarily though - how many of those systems do you think were fully spec'd by the user? More often than not they'll be pre-built systems, and the hardware dictated by many other factors.

The "spec" will be walking into PC World and asking for something that can run Minecraft or CoD. Whether the overpriced laptop they came away with had integrated graphics or discrete isn't any more relevant to them than my dad buying a Vauxhall that has an Alfa spec FIAT sourced diesel engine in it. He doesn't care, as long as it does what he wants.

[watercooled]

You could say the same about almost anything if you google around.

I could be wrong, but I think that's kind of the point.

And to call it perception is an insult to anyone who has made a choice based on personal experience.

It depends though; if e.g. one bad card or driver has skewed someone's opinion, then that is more emotive than objective TBH. Much like the hate around Hawaii's stock cooler. Somehow a bad cooler being fitted implies the GPU itself is 'hot', even though when it has the same cooler installed as used on e.g. GK110 card, it runs perfectly cool and quiet. And weirdly, some people take it further and think that bad cooler somehow extrapolates to the rest of AMD's line-up.

I can also understand why some may be doomsayers.....has nVidia had to sell their HQ for some money in the bank? Has AMD had the resources to work with devs to optimise for hardware like nVidia do? (and if so, why haven't they?)

Nvidia didn't buy up another massive semiconductor company, and nor did they have any foundries to start with. Even Intel are manufacturing for other companies to fill fabs. There aren't really any remaining semiconductor companies who aren't either fabless or also act as a fab for others. IBM also recently parted with its fab business, which is incidentally now a part of GloFo.

And there are pretty much as many AMD GE games as their are Nvidia games AFAIK. Battlefield isn't a small example.

The "spec" will be walking into PC World and asking for something that can run Minecraft or CoD. Whether the overpriced laptop they came away with had integrated graphics or discrete isn't any more relevant to them than my dad buying a Vauxhall that has an Alfa spec FIAT sourced diesel engine in it. He doesn't care, as long as it does what he wants.

Agreed.

[george1979]

If AMD came out with a card which was 20% faster and consumed 10% less power than the GTX980,I bet it would be good effort AMD,but a little too late. If Nvidia then came out with a card 20% faster but consumed 40% more power,it would be AMD is doomed.

In all fairness, that kind of response (outside of idiotic fanboyism) can be expected to some degree since AMD as company (not specifically the GPU side) has struggled a bit for a few years so some peoples perception of it may be of doom and gloom due to seeing a fair bit of not so positive press. No one can deny they've had a bit of a difficult time leading up to, and for a while after, offshooting Global Foundries. A lot of this was in no small part caused by Intel's anti-competitive practices but, nevertheless, it creates a perception. I'm really glad they got the Xbone and PS4 contracts as it has helped them no end in this regard.

I'd also disagree with some comments about how AMD doesn't get the praise it deserves - I remember reading plenty of rave reviews for the 4, 5 and 6 series - for their power and/or efficiency at the time. I understand, and encourage, the urge to back the underdog but I think that may be getting in the way of the facts a little here.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

You could say the same about almost anything if you google around. I feel your being overly-selective.

And to call it perception is an insult to anyone who has made a choice based on personal experience.

I can also understand why some may be doomsayers.....has nVidia had to sell their HQ for some money in the bank? Has AMD had the resources to work with devs to optimise for hardware like nVidia do? (and if so, why haven't they?) How have AMDs linux drivers been? (I won't talk about the windows ones as they seem more hit-and-miss depending on title for both nV and AMD). Hows AMDs desktop CPU roadmap looking?

All this news will effect how people look at a company, and rightly so. When you look at the evidence, AMD is not in a strong position compared to nVidia, of course that can change in the blink of an eye....but right now they do seem a much weaker company......so you can understand (at least to a point) where the chicken-little talk comes from. It is based on something and not just pulled from someones behind.

Personally I don't think AMD are doomed, I love my little AM1 system and I am constantly building people AM1 or FM2 based HTPCs.........but for my main gaming fix I just cannot bring myself to buy an AMD card, I recently replaced a 7970 and until I see a 12 month stretch without major driver issues or certain titles running sub-standard, I won't be buying a high-end AMD card, I personally find it too much of a minefield. I see AMD becoming stronger as a whole but I also see them becoming weaker in the segment we at hexus are mainly are interested in......perhaps the doomsayers can't see further than the high-end gaming market?

If this was something just happening in a year or two I would agree with you,but is been happening for a while. But then I am also talking of forums outside Hexus - overclock.net,OcUK,Anandtech,etc.
Nvidia has had plenty of problems massively underhyped.

Plus you very well know a big part of AMD's problems were its fabs - which were bleeding money and they had to get into a crap WSA agreement otherwise it would have bankrupted the company. Fab development and costs were cutting in massively into its total R and D spend.

Look at how almost every fab company is having problems or merging - most of them are merging or joining with GF now.

Companies like Samsung and IBM cannot compete by themselves with Intel - they are all joining forces and they are massive.

The vast majority of its losses were down to fab costs and having to compete with Intel who were on average two years ahead,which meant the whole of their BD line(which was not their finest moment) ended up being delayed well over a year as the 32NM node was late and buggy. Llano was delayed by six+ months.

So instead of Llano competing with socket 1156 CPUs and BD competing with socket 1366 CPUs,they were competing with much newer products.

In graphics the perception is funny at the best of times. If AMD were as close to Intel as they were in graphics,they would be having the equivalent of something like a six Core i7 5820K,consuming more power,while being cheaper,and having a similar performance profile,and having no real competitor to the Core i7 5930K.

Tegra lost billions of dollars - it has only stated making a profit this year,and that was with near parity on process nodes too,which AMD can only dream off in the CPU space.

In fact none of the other fabs can really compete with Intel currently - so even AMD using the second best fabs they can,and even with a new uarch,I don't think they can do another Athlon 64 moment anytime soon.

In all fairness, that kind of response (outside of idiotic fanboyism) can be expected to some degree since AMD as company (not specifically the GPU side) has struggled a bit for a few years so some peoples perception of it may be of doom and gloom due to seeing a fair bit of not so positive press. No one can deny they've had a bit of a difficult time leading up to, and for a while after, offshooting Global Foundries. A lot of this was in no small part caused by Intel's anti-competitive practices but, nevertheless, it creates a perception. I'm really glad they got the Xbone and PS4 contracts as it has helped them no end in this regard.

I'd also disagree with some comments about how AMD doesn't get the praise it deserves - I remember reading plenty of rave reviews for the 4, 5 and 6 series - for their power and/or efficiency at the time. I understand, and encourage, the urge to back the underdog but I think that may be getting in the way of the facts a little here.

Its not about the praise,but about the amount of Apple-level hype Nvidia gets when they are ahead and the massive underhyping of any singular problem they have. The bumps issue got virtually no press in the tech media.

Even a number of long held perceptions about ATi/AMD graphics,etc come out of the astroturfing done by the Nvidia focus group who were formed about the same time as the way it's meant to be played.

People still repeat the same stuff religiously now like nearly 10 years later. People like Rollo were operating for a very long time until they were discovered - in fact Nvidia only revealed its existence when one person decided to admit what they were doing. We really don't no how long it lasted for - luckily astroturfing is banned under US and UK law now.

Look at the reporting by TPU who gleefully proclaimed AMD is f""ked with the GTX980 launch,but the same reviewer never even said Nvidia was f""ked with AMD launching the HD5870 6 months before Nvidia having an answer and destroying the GTX285 in all important metrics,or the fact the GTX480 was a hot,noisy mess launching massively late and being overpriced too(especially when you consider the price of the HD5870 and HD5850 too). Then HardwareCanucks saying the GTX680 made GCN look a generation out of date.

Lets also go on about a problem I predicted right at the launch of Kepler - problems with the boost mechanism.

In the end,NONE of it was hyped in any way by most English language sites - who quietly sidestepped the issue saying they had to modify their testing methods. Its probably one of the reasons why the HD7970/HD7970GE looked progressively better over time too.

Yep,sites had to change their testing methods because of the Nvidia boost mechanism - and none of their original reviews were changed.

The only sites to bother to actually make a deal about the boost issues were German and French ones.

But,oh with the R9 290/R9 290X in quite mode - they were all over that,and the Nvidia boost problems were nicely buried.

TBF,its the US/Canadian sites which are the worst for it.

However,looking at how they just love Apple,it would not surprise me.

There is one thing saying ABC company has launched a good product instead of ABC company launching ABC product which has "revolutionised" the universe and sounds like it has come straight out of the reviewers guide.

Where as I can understand the PR lot doing it since its their jobs,not review sites.

You know there is a problem when Toms Hardware starts to sound level headed among review sites!

[whatif]

What we need is a revision of how much heat and power is used.
My Gigabyte motherboard fortunately allows me to switch between my 2x AMD 290x's when gaming to my cpu graphics without leaving windows. I can easily lower my power consumption and heat production (as well as fan noise), just by switching away from the cards.
I wonder why this ability has not been taken up on more motherboards.

[george1979]

Yeah CAT that's a fair point in regards to the way some sites review products. I'll admit I'd have to defer to your knowledge on that as there are only a few sites I tend to take notice of - this being one of them, obviously
I certainly wouldn't surprise me to find any company trying to stack the deck in their favour when it comes to reviews, benchmarks and so on. It happens all too often, sadly. My points about the AMD stories were more about the trouble they were in financially rather than in terms of their product reviews. They do seem to be getting back on track though which is pleasing.
As for Tom's, I used to read that site but fell away from it a while ago, not because of any specific issues with reviews, it was just a general feeling that I didn't like the site. I think tiresome is the best word I can find to describe it lol.

[watercooled]

What we need is a revision of how much heat and power is used.
My Gigabyte motherboard fortunately allows me to switch between my 2x AMD 290x's when gaming to my cpu graphics without leaving windows. I can easily lower my power consumption and heat production (as well as fan noise), just by switching away from the cards.
I wonder why this ability has not been taken up on more motherboards.

Interesting, which motherboard is that? I don't think I've come across it on desktop.