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Thread: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    We will have to see how that plays out, I believe that refers to security updates only.

    How much money do you think MS would be losing by 2020 when Windows 7 support ends if they are forcing OS upgrades in the enterprise? And it would be a cascading effect, they wouldn't just lose the OS money, they would lose Office and therefore Exchange licenses as well....and I don't for a moment think they are unaware of this.

    It won't happen.
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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Which is why I said "standard consumer licences".

    And no, it doesn't refer only to security updates. MS have been pretty clear in that. It refers to all updates for users on the "Home" licence branch. Enterprise users will be on the "long term servicing" licence branch, while standard business users will be on the "current business branch", which will defer but not avoid such updates, while they're "tested" on consumer machines effectively turning consumers into a large beta test program for business.

    While I'm not aware of official confirmation, it appears that "Professional" licences (but not "Home" will have the option to elect for the current business branch, which will defer updates, probably for a few months.

    This is how, and why, MS have said it'll be the "last version" of Windows .... because instead of a major version release, including the headaches implied by a vasy array of different update statuses, everybody other than those on long-term stability "enterprise" licence branches can be guaranteed to be in precisely the same software version state, prior to major automatic, slipstreamed, silent updates.

    Of course, it also neatly avoids MS having to go through another Win8 MUI style of user revolt, with large numbers of people outright declining to update, because whatever they do, and whether users like it or not, the updates are going to occur, automatically. Staying with your existing release will no longer be an option.

    Two immediately obvious issues arise for me. First, what if I REALLY don't like future UI (or whatever) changes? Unlike with MUI, when I can simply decline to upgrade, and instead stay with Win7, I get it without making any conscious decision, and like it or not.

    Second, and more seriously, what if a future upgrade breaks compatibility with existing applucations and/or hardware? I still have systems on Win98 precisely because Win7 did exactly that, both for hardware and an old but essential application.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    The problem with that is I see a TON of small to middle sized business buying OEM licenses on PCs and laptops. They are not VL licenses, ergo, will get treated as consumer licenses.

    They cannot force upgrades.....if they try it, it won't last long.

    And just because 10 is the last version, doesn't mean it's the last version It cannot be the last version, IMO, it's extremely short-sighted of MS to say that. Sooner or later they will want or need to add a feature that requires a major part of the OS to be re-written or functionality to be compromised. At that point, all bets are off.

    How many versions of Mac OS 10 have there been now? How many compatibility problems have each new "version" caused?

    Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows, until the next one.

    The last version business screams of the same ineptness that we have seen from day one of Windows 10 talk........marketing having way too much say in things of a technical nature.
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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    It's that "vision" that worries me, especially since they're being coy to the point of evasiveness as to precisely what it is.

    As for "better" it depends entirely on your criteria. One criteria, by which IMHO it fails badly, is that MS dictate what "upgrades" happen, when they happen, and do them automatically without giving the user any say in the matter. I can see why that appeals to MS but it sure as hell doesn't appeal one tiny little bit to me. And that alone is bordering on enough for me to reject it, never mind other concerns.
    The better part was in reference to the third party programs, and not the current MS offering. Also, the vision thing was more in the look and feel thing than it was under the hood. This wasn't intended to be part of that conversation Just the appearance thing is all.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    And just because 10 is the last version, doesn't mean it's the last version It cannot be the last version, IMO, it's extremely short-sighted of MS to say that. Sooner or later they will want or need to add a feature that requires a major part of the OS to be re-written or functionality to be compromised. At that point, all bets are off.
    I think when they say the last version of Windows they don't actual mean that in the literal sense, I'm fairly certain they mean in the traditional sense of how we got a new major release of Windows every 3-5 years, AFAIK there's only going to be "Windows" going forward, yes Windows will receive new features and updates and have updated version numbering, but Microsoft's aim is to have everyone on the same code base, using the same Windows, and not like in the past where you had people running XP, Vista and W7.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    The problem with that is I see a TON of small to middle sized business buying OEM licenses on PCs and laptops. They are not VL licenses, ergo, will get treated as consumer licenses.

    They cannot force upgrades.....if they try it, it won't last long.

    And just because 10 is the last version, doesn't mean it's the last version It cannot be the last version, IMO, it's extremely short-sighted of MS to say that. Sooner or later they will want or need to add a feature that requires a major part of the OS to be re-written or functionality to be compromised. At that point, all bets are off.

    How many versions of Mac OS 10 have there been now? How many compatibility problems have each new "version" caused?

    Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows, until the next one.

    The last version business screams of the same ineptness that we have seen from day one of Windows 10 talk........marketing having way too much say in things of a technical nature.
    Their explanation is that, by "version" they mean major feature upgrades/changes signified by a new version number and a big launch program and event. So, Windows certainly won't be pickled in aspic, set in stone. They've said, effectively, it'll progress forward via an evolutionary process rather than revolutionary process. But, automatically and bit by bit, rather than huge great changes at a time.

    As for whether they can force upgrades, well, we'll see. I hope you're right, but they're showing all the signs of being fully prepared to give it a good go.

    And there's precedent. Without wanting to go over the great MUI debacle again in any detail, they TRIED, very hard, to shove it down our throats. And failed, not least because so many people said "no thanks, I'll stick with my current version". And, under this new auto-upgrade regime, that won't be an option because the software will, do it for you (if you're not on Enterprise) and the best you can expect (if you're Pro not Home licence) is to defer it a bit.

    So, IF you upgrade from current versions to Win 10, you will have consented to that. If speculation is correct, you may have problems even should you decide to downgrade back to Win7, if (for example) the license is invalidated and even a new install won't validate. At that point, if your old version is invalid, you might as well be using a pirate version because your Win7 licence that used to be valid no longer will be.

    Personally, whether that will prove to be the case or not is something I'm waiting for clarification on but, again personally, NO WAY am I converting a valid Win7 Pro, or in one case, Ultimate, licence to Win 10 unless I know, for absolutely certain, that I can revert to those Win7 licences if I need to.

    To out it clearly, I KNOW that Win7 will do what I need of it, at least for as long as security support lasts, on pretty much the same basis that I'm still using a number of (air-gapped) Win98 machines. But with Win10 auto-updating to whatever MS feel like, they could foist (for example) MUI on me again, and this time, I wouldn't have the option to tell them, politely, to shove it, as the OS isn't going to ask or let me prevent it.

    Being able to stick with the status quo is an acceptable option for me, at least for some years. Being forced to accept whatever MS decides is in THEIR best interest, like that attempt to shove MUI on us, is not acceptable to me.

    After all, what "vision" are MS heading for?

    I said back in the MUI farce days that they were seeking to use the existing desktop OS userbase as a platform to leverage mobile device hardware, "app" sales and "services" , to compete wuth Android and the Apple ecosystem, because they see such devices as the future of home computing and traditional desktops as, by and large and for the mainstream user, the past. And they still are.

    They conceded sufficiently to the MUI backlash to effectively put the MUI into one of two modes, which for simplicity's sake I'll call desktop and tablet, and to only activate tablet mide on appropriate devices. Had they dine that in Win8, they wouldn't (IMHO) have had anything like the anger or backlash. I kniw I've gone on about hierarchical menus (hi, Guido ) but I also know that's a niche viewpoint and not the main objection to MUI.

    Without the ability to refuse to "upgrade" to Win8, and thereby hit their revenue stream, do you think they'd have backed down over MUI, and made it effectively optional? Because I don't.

    Their "vision", as far as I can tell, is a mass-market device-common platform for developers, because they want to be THE go-to platform, and to monetise it via applications (Office, etc), apps and chargeable services. And, longer term, I'm sure they see (probably correctly) desktop applications getting less and less common and relevant, and 'apps' getting more and more prevalent.

    And having an auto-update OS plays nicely into that. It might well be essential for it.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    So, IF you upgrade from current versions to Win 10, you will have consented to that. If speculation is correct, you may have problems even should you decide to downgrade back to Win7, if (for example) the license is invalidated and even a new install won't validate. At that point, if your old version is invalid, you might as well be using a pirate version because your Win7 licence that used to be valid no longer will be.
    This has already been debunked. Paragraph 7 of the EULA - you can downgrade or re-install until the EOL of the particular version. There's no ambiguity there at all, right down to the part where they say that the user will be responsible for any costs associated with procuring the older version if you're downgrading from an OEM installed version. *I* don't have a problem with that - it's not MS that installed the OEM version. It's the OEM - and on top of that, I've already posted a link to legitimate Windows 7 ISO downloads - all the way from Home Starter to Enterprise OA, so I know that they can be found, downloaded, and archived in case of that rainy day scenario. I'm relatively (as in, 100%) certain that there are legal options for downloading Win 8/8.1. I've not gone looking for them, but the same place I found the 7 ISO's probably have the 8 ISO's (a German mirror of Digital River)

    Bottom line - there is no expiration/cancellation of current licenses until they go EOL.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoLS View Post
    This has already been debunked. Paragraph 7 of the EULA - you can downgrade or re-install until the EOL of the particular version.
    I know that's what it says in the EULA but I'm going to reserve judgement until we get reports from people that have used a 30+days upgraded Windows 7/9.x license to downgrade back to one of those older OS's, I'm not saying it can or can't be done until someone does it basically.

    While the EULA does cover downgrade rights it's notable that (from what I can tell) they only mention downgrade rights in relation to Professional version of Windows that come preinstalled (aka OEM), so if I'm reading it right that leaves out Home editions, retail editions, and any other version of Windows that is not an OEM Windows (7/8.x) Professional edition.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    I know that's what it says in the EULA but I'm going to reserve judgement until we get reports from people that have used a 30+days upgraded Windows 7/9.x license to downgrade back to one of those older OS's, I'm not saying it can or can't be done until someone does it basically.

    While the EULA does cover downgrade rights it's notable that (from what I can tell) they only mention downgrade rights in relation to Professional version of Windows that come preinstalled (aka OEM), so if I'm reading it right that leaves out Home editions, retail editions, and any other version of Windows that is not an OEM Windows (7/8.x) Professional edition.
    You've never been able to downgrade from a home version of the OEM's, so I have no idea why people would expect that to change now. Your retail copy doesn't get changed, period. You just can't use it on a Win10 machine AND a Win 7/8.1 machine at the same time. And that's nothing new. Windows 8 isn't even part of the conversation - those that haven't upgraded to 8.1 cannot use the free upgrade path to 10 without upgrading to 8.1 first. That isn't new news, either. IANAL, but I'm pretty sure section 4b covers moving the software around, which includes reverting back to a retail piece of software -

    4b. Stand-alone software.

    If you acquired the software as stand-alone software (and also if you upgraded from software you acquired as stand-alone software), you may transfer the software to another device that belongs to you. You may also transfer the software to a device owned by someone else if (i) you are the first licensed user of the software and (ii) the new user agrees to the terms of this agreement. You may use the backup copy we allow you to make or the media that the software came on to transfer the software. Every time you transfer the software to a new device, you must remove the software from the prior device. You may not transfer the software to share licenses between devices.
    I'm willing to bet real money that people that attempt to rollback are going to find out there are issues that crop up, just as there will be for those that upgrade over an existing OS. I think, as a professional, that having that option available is stupid, regardless of the piece of software. I'm also willing to bet real money that there aren't 5 people on Hexus that would truthfully say they would use a revert option on an install they did from a previously existing OS. If you're doing a clean install, you're doing a clean install. I can see it as a possibility if they bought a new computer with 10 on it already (read: OEM Pro) and preferred either 7 or 8.1, but once again, since the license key works on the appropriate version, the vast majority of us would do a clean install.

    And there is no mention, anywhere, on any piece of MS released documentation, that says licenses used to upgrade are forfeited, OEM or retail.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    I just installed windows 10 for the first time since the original tech preview, its come a long way! Installed 10074 from MSDNAA, registry hack to enable downloading the 10240 update and now I can use cortana etc, looks like I am on RTM and totally ready to go. Cool stuff!

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoLS View Post
    This has already been debunked. Paragraph 7 of the EULA - you can downgrade or re-install until the EOL of the particular version. There's no ambiguity there at all, right down to the part where they say that the user will be responsible for any costs associated with procuring the older version if you're downgrading from an OEM installed version. *I* don't have a problem with that - it's not MS that installed the OEM version. It's the OEM - and on top of that, I've already posted a link to legitimate Windows 7 ISO downloads - all the way from Home Starter to Enterprise OA, so I know that they can be found, downloaded, and archived in case of that rainy day scenario. I'm relatively (as in, 100%) certain that there are legal options for downloading Win 8/8.1. I've not gone looking for them, but the same place I found the 7 ISO's probably have the 8 ISO's (a German mirror of Digital River)

    Bottom line - there is no expiration/cancellation of current licenses until they go EOL.
    No, it hasn't debunked it. Or certainly not by Para 7, which is referring to downgrade rights, I.e. by a device or PC with Win10 on it, and para 7 authorises use of an earlier version .... though it does also restrict that rignt to Win10 Professional. What about Home version users? That said, my existing Windows are Pro or Ultimate.

    Even then, they put a time limit on it. And even then, you have to acquire that previous version yourself.

    In other words, by buying a device with Win 10 already on it you acquire a valid W7 or W8.1 Pro licence on the basis of that Win10 licence.

    That is very different from what I was talking about, which is already possessing a perfectly valid Win 7 Ultimate licence, in it's own right, and being able to revert to it as a valid licence IF Microsoft do something using their newly claimed right to amend and upgrade my system software, without my permission and against my wishes.

    Let me illustrate that, for complete clarity.

    1) I own, say, Win 7 Ultimate Licence No ABC123456.

    2) I am impeccably opposed to MS implementing a DooDad Manager that rearranges my DooDads.

    3) I upgrade my W7 Ultimate to Win10 Pro, Serial XYZ987654, thereby accepting the EULA you posted.

    4) Fast-forward 18 months, MS use their auto-update facility to "upgrade" some components in "Windows" and have the superb whim to include a new DooDad Manager, which arranges everybody's DooDads according to MS wishes.

    5) Can I dump the Win10 licence, and re-install my ORIGINAL Win7 Ultimate, for which I still have the disks, using serial ABC123456 and not have validation issues?

    That EULA para doesn't address that, either way.
    ...

    7. Downgrade Rights. If you acquired a device from a manufacturer or installer with a Professional version of Windows preinstalled on it, you may use either a Windows 8.1 Pro or Windows 7 Professional version, but only for so long as Microsoft provides support for that earlier version as set forth in (aka.ms/windowslifecycle). This agreement applies to your use of the earlier versions. If the earlier version includes different components, any terms for those components in the agreement that comes with the earlier version apply to your use of such components. Neither the manufacturer or installer, nor Microsoft, is obligated to supply earlier versions to you. You must obtain the earlier version separately, for which you may be charged a fee. At any time, you may replace an earlier version with the version you originally acquired.

    ...
    Bold emphasis is mine.

    See, if I can't "revert", then even while Win10 is "free", it's still buying a pig in a poke, as it were, precisely because MS can slipstream any damn changes they like under the Win10 EULA you posted, and short of reversion, I'm stuck with it no matter how objectionable I find it.

    If I can revert, fine. If changes are too unpalatable, I simply revert and carry on with my original Win7 licence. But if I can't revert, the price of even a free Win10 upgrade may end up being that I swapped a perfectly useable Win7 licence for, to me, an unusable Win10 licence.

    Clearly, "DooDad Manager" is .... fictional. But suppose MS decide to implement an advert manager that feeds ads to my desktop? That, most definitely, crosses an inviolable red line.

    Suppose they decide to make their cloud storage auto-available, maybe even default? That's a non-starter for me, too. I categorically do NOT want cloud storage to even be possible unless I sign specifically up for it, because even though I know better than to use it, other users on my system might not. So I will not accept that it's even available, short of having opted for it, which I NEVER will.

    Will they do either of those, or any of numerous other utterly unacceptable things? Dunno. But unless I can "revert", at any time, to my currently valid licence, the EULA and auto-update is an upgrade-killing combination for me. To be prepared to risk giving up a licence I know is of value to me, for one that mignt turn into utterly valueless to me requires a considerable level of trust in MS, and I just don't trust them.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoLS View Post
    ....

    And there is no mention, anywhere, on any piece of MS released documentation, that says licenses used to upgrade are forfeited, OEM or retail.
    There is, specifically and explicitly exactly that provision, in the Win7 Ultimate Retail EULA I'm holding in my hand. Para 15, to be exact.

    15. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licenced for the software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.
    So if you upgrade, you replace the original EULA with the EULA for the upgrade software, thereby accepting the terms of the later version, and you may no longer use the original software.

    Now, it might be argued that that situation only prevails while using the later software, and that if you revert to the earlier software you revert to a valid licence and the original EULA. And that may be what MS do in practice, but it isn't what the EULA says. The actual wording isn't conditional. If you upgrade, you replace the agreement, and lose the right to use the original software. Period. I mean, literally ... a period/full-stop follows, not "unless you revert to the earlier version".

    Several variants also explicitly make clear that a valid licence is ONLY valid once successfully activated, and that until successfully activated, the installation is illicit.

    So .... if you revert software to a previous VALID licence, the crunch is whether MS enforce the letter of terms like Para 15, and whether anything is done to 'superseded' licences to prevent successful activation. Or whether they let it slip.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoLS View Post
    ....

    I'm willing to bet real money that people that attempt to rollback are going to find out there are issues that crop up, just as there will be for those that upgrade over an existing OS. I think, as a professional, that having that option available is stupid, regardless of the piece of software. I'm also willing to bet real money that there aren't 5 people on Hexus that would truthfully say they would use a revert option on an install they did from a previously existing OS. If you're doing a clean install, you're doing a clean install. I can see it as a possibility if they bought a new computer with 10 on it already (read: OEM Pro) and preferred either 7 or 8.1, but once again, since the license key works on the appropriate version, the vast majority of us would do a clean install.

    ....
    Just to be clear, I'm talking about licence reversion, not software rollback.

    So if I decide to dump the Win10 upgrade, I want to be CERTAIN I can clean reinstall the Win7 I upgraded, successfully activate without problem and retain my original Win7 licence, and accompanying EULA.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    @Saracen -

    What's not covered under 7 *should* be covered under 4b. As I stated before, IANAL.

    Also of interest, there's no mention of revert rights at all in either the 7 EULA (you should have a native copy... it's in the Win32 subdirectory of Windows) nor the 8/8.1 EULA (HERE - it's a PDF file, just FYI)

    I guess I'm a little more pragmatic. I don't see anything that says I can't do it. I've known many people that upgraded to 8 (or 8.1) from 7, found that they didn't like it, and re-installed 7 from retail software with no activation issues. Yes, that's anecdotal. I'll also say I've never known anyone to use the built in 'revert to' software from 8/8.1 to 7 - it's always been a clean install, but to me that's just as much common sense as to not upgrade over an old OS.

    Why can't we get it in writing? I don't know. None of the searching I have done has found it in writing for any version of Windows - at least not with an MS stamp on it. I've sent in what I expect to be unanswered e-mails.

    The following is not meant to be snide, or anything other than a straight comment - if I were you, and knowing your basic usage just on what you've detailed here in our conversations, I would *NOT* upgrade from 7 Ultimate to 10 Pro. There's nothing there *you* need. You aren't a gamer, so you shouldn't need DX12. All the security that's in Pro (and Enterprise) is present in Ultimate. And you won't have to deal with a UI and start menu that currently does not operate the way you want/need it to. I'd consider doing a straight Pro for Pro exchange, only because that's pretty much a straight dollar for dollar (or pound, or Euro, or whatever makes people happy) exchange. I don't own any home licenses. I made that mistake once... not again. If they offered Enterprise for Ultimate, then I'd jump on that, too, but that's not happening.

    I'm certainly not 'turning in' all my Win7 Pro licenses, and I'll be pulling out a HD with 10 on it from a netbook and putting back the HD that has Mint on it. Yes, 10 runs on it, although honestly, it's like saying you can run a 60's model VW Beetle in an F1 race simply because it has an engine and 4 tires... it's not something you really want to do for more than a couple of minutes. It was a test. It passed, sort of.

    I'm making the same recommendation to pretty much all the business people I know using 8.1. In 8 years, they're more than likely going to have bought a new machine anyway, which will already have 10 installed. If people are steady gamers, regardless of current OS, I recommend having their main gaming rig upgraded to 10. I *know* DX12 won't be getting backported to Win7, and I'm pretty sure I've read that it won't be getting made for 8.1 either. Given the (again, anecdotal) system improvements I've gotten just off the beta, I'm really looking forward to seeing what (if anything) DX12 brings me now, and again when I upgrade video.

    I can see most gamers upgrading sometime in the next 5 years... and not little tiny upgrades. And then they'll have to upgrade OS's. In that situation, if it were me, and I knew I'd be ditching my current box inside of 3 years, I'd do the upgrade now. Then you're covered (there's no ambiguity at all about transferring a retail license.)

    What I am recommending, to the tech minded people with the equipment to spare, is to get a hold of a copy of the preview, install it before the 29th, and NOT register it - keep it in beta, and play with it that way. Take a month, or 6, or 10, or if brave, until July 28, 2016... decide while it's *free* with no obligation being made on your part. Heck... if you don't mind living on the beta fast track, keep it that way forever.

    And in regards to section 15, that's just a continuation of not using the same piece of software on 2 different machines - if you upgrade from Vista to 7, you aren't supposed to be using both pieces of software at the same time. I'm not going to go digging through years of documents, but that was clarified by Ballmer back in 2010 (Mix 10, iirc). No, this isn't the first time this has been so needlessly confusing. You'd think they'd learn.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm talking about licence reversion, not software rollback.

    So if I decide to dump the Win10 upgrade, I want to be CERTAIN I can clean reinstall the Win7 I upgraded, successfully activate without problem and retain my original Win7 licence, and accompanying EULA.
    I'd like to see something in writing to confirm this, but to me, it makes a certain kind of sense that if you revert back, your old license takes effect, and since you've actually used an existing key to upgrade, that same key is the one in effect for the revert. But yes, lack of a direct statement in lieu of what we've been able to do in the past is not a good thing.

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    Re: Microsoft Windows 10 said to have reached RTM milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoLS View Post
    You've never been able to downgrade from a home version of the OEM's, so I have no idea why people would expect that to change now. Your retail copy doesn't get changed, period. You just can't use it on a Win10 machine AND a Win 7/8.1 machine at the same time. And that's nothing new. Windows 8 isn't even part of the conversation - those that haven't upgraded to 8.1 cannot use the free upgrade path to 10 without upgrading to 8.1 first. That isn't new news, either. IANAL, but I'm pretty sure section 4b covers moving the software around, which includes reverting back to a retail piece of software -



    I'm willing to bet real money that people that attempt to rollback are going to find out there are issues that crop up, just as there will be for those that upgrade over an existing OS. I think, as a professional, that having that option available is stupid, regardless of the piece of software. I'm also willing to bet real money that there aren't 5 people on Hexus that would truthfully say they would use a revert option on an install they did from a previously existing OS. If you're doing a clean install, you're doing a clean install. I can see it as a possibility if they bought a new computer with 10 on it already (read: OEM Pro) and preferred either 7 or 8.1, but once again, since the license key works on the appropriate version, the vast majority of us would do a clean install.

    And there is no mention, anywhere, on any piece of MS released documentation, that says licenses used to upgrade are forfeited, OEM or retail.
    My apologise I wasn't aware that Home editions of Windows never had downgrade rights in the first place, for them it would seem to be a one way trip then.

    I understand what you're saying about rolling back an OS but we aren't talking about the technical nightmare that rolling back or doing an in-place upgrade can sometimes causes, we are talking about the legality, and/or ability, of being able to use a Windows 7 Professional activation key to upgrade to Windows 10 and then say in 2-3 years time if we don't like the changes that Microsoft have made to Windows 10, if we could then dig out that same Windows 7 Professional activation key (and CD), format the drive, then install and activate our old copy of Windows 7 Professional.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoLS View Post
    Yes, that's anecdotal. I'll also say I've never known anyone to use the built in 'revert to' software from 8/8.1 to 7 - it's always been a clean install, but to me that's just as much common sense as to not upgrade over an old OS.
    In this situation I'm much more inclined to trust anecdotal evidence than the words in the EULA TBH.

    EDIT: Microsoft have updated the Windows lifecycle fact sheet, http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

    End of mainstream support = October 13, 2020
    End of extended support = October 14, 2025

    ** Updates are cumulative, with each update built upon all of the updates that preceded it. A device needs to install the latest update to remain supported. Updates may include new features, fixes (security and/or non-security), or a combination of both. Not all features in an update will work on all devices. A device may not be able to receive updates if the device hardware is incompatible, lacking current drivers, or otherwise outside of the Original Equipment Manufacturer’s (“OEM”) support period. Update availability may vary, for example by country, region, network connectivity, mobile operator (e.g., for cellular-capable devices), or hardware capabilities (including, e.g., free disk space).
    Last edited by Corky34; 18-07-2015 at 08:20 AM.

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