Microsoft previews bevy of new features coming to Windows 10

[Corky34]

They usually know enough to read the minimum and recommended spec requirements on the back of a game...

Being able to read the minimum and recommended spec requirements on the back of a game doesn't mean they know if a GT 730 is better or worse than a GTX 460, or any other of the many people asking in their systems good enough to run X game.

Most people will know/learn enough to achieve what suits their needs, especially as the information is more readily available and even system building is almost completely plug & play nowadays...

You'd think so wouldn't you but they just don't, a survey in America showed how 2 out of 3 teenage drivers didn't know how to change a flat tire, check or change the oil, or jumpstart a battery, 75% of UK drivers don't know how to check their oil, and there's load of other surveys that I've admittedly not looked to deeply into that show most people don't care to learn the basics of how the things they use work or how to perform basic maintenance.

So you're telling me the majority of people are paying £380 for dealers to replace a headlight bulb, that costs £2 and which the procedure for changing is detailed in the owners manual?
Most people are THAT retarded, are they?
They can't even Google it?

I agree that is what people may want... but most people are not that stupid, either. Not even our accountants.

I didn't say they're retarded, i said they don't care to learn, as in they don't have the time, the inclination, or interest to be bothered with learning, and yes some people prefer to just pay someone else to do it for them, that includes paying £380 to change a bulb.

Actually, I'd say people at least know things can be cheaper, which is why they pay people like me to know what they don't and do what they either can't, won't or didn't know they could do until I show them.
More of them take an interest once they have a reason to. Kinda like cooking, really.

Well yes but that brings us back to computers and how most people just want something that works, gets the job done, and is as cheap as possible, unfortunately most people don't know, for many reasons, that you need, or at least used to need, some basic computer knowledge to use Windows, you needed next to none to use a MAC, and you needed considerably more to run Linux. (speaking typically there BTW)

[Xlucine]

Checking the oil or changing a tyre isn't needed for usual use of a modern car. The skills needed to change gear etc get used every time you turn the key; when's the last time you had a flat? I'm not saying that you shouldn't check the oil or know how to change a tyre, but it's possible to use a modern car without ever looking under the bonnet. So people learn enough to achieve their needs (i.e. 'get to work' or 'get to the shops'), and if something out the ordinary happens then they call the AA to fit their spare tyre for them.

[aidanjt]

Checking the oil or changing a tyre isn't needed for usual use of a modern car.

But they are basic car maintenance tasks. Same with topping up coolant, filling the wiper fluid tank, making sure there's enough hydraulic fluid in the brake line reservoir, that the cam belt is in good condition, etc. Failing to maintain your car and only going to a mechanic when the car breaks down is only going to cost you more money or your life, or even the lives of others. I'd say it's worth taking a spare day out to flick through your car's user manual if it's going to save you thousands of pounds and/or your life or that of others. You don't have to be a mechanical engineer to do this stuff, it's just basic periodic user checks that any idiot can do if they bother themselves with it.

[Xlucine]

You're right that they are a good idea, and that people should do them, but on a modern car maintenance isn't part of usual use. You can drive for thousands of miles without looking under the bonnet (a gamble, sure, but people can & do do it), and it suits their needs just fine.

Basically my argument is that people do learn enough to suit their needs, and achieve what they want from a system, without having the faintest clue what to do if it goes wrong. They look silly when things go wrong, and end up throwing money at people who have a clue, but things go wrong rarely enough that they can get by just fine.

[Ttaskmaster]

OK, so people ARE retarded, then, because they choose not to learn, to read the manual, or to remember what they had to do for their Tell Me, Show Me driving licences... They choose to look like idiots when they find that £2 bulb will cost them another £60 if they want me to fit it instead of them reading the handbook... they choose to hop on a PC and expect it to "just work", expect it to cater for zero knowledge and choose not to learn where they can...

And it is probably for them that Microsoft must now cater, hence getting everything done for you.

[Saracen]

OK, so people ARE retarded, then, because they choose not to learn, to read the manual, or to remember what they had to do for their Tell Me, Show Me driving licences... They choose to look like idiots when they find that £2 bulb will cost them another £60 if they want me to fit it instead of them reading the handbook... they choose to hop on a PC and expect it to "just work", expect it to cater for zero knowledge and choose not to learn where they can...

And it is probably for them that Microsoft must now cater, hence getting everything done for you.

I'm about halfway with you when it comes to working on cars.

Firstly, I should say I'm perfectly capable of doing basic, and more than basic, tasks. My history includes engine rebuilds, head tuning and changjng, big end bearing replacements, fitting new shocks, gearbox replacement and do on. But that kind of job, these days, is necessary far less often, not least because built quality is much better and because I tend far less to running old clunkers. Also, many aspects of those kinds of jobs increasingly requires specialist knowledge and sometimes tools.

But mostly, I don't do those kinds of jobs because I'd rather pay someone else to get cold, grimy and scrape their knuckles. Then, there's warranty issues to consider. And, rather than spend a few hours fixing my car, I can earn enough to pay someone else to do it. So, I'd rather spend a morning, or day, at a keyboard, music playing and a nice coffee by my side, earning the money to pay someone rlse to struggle with my car. It suits me, and it suits the small, local specialist that does such jobs for me. We both do what we're good at.

So, I have my/our cars regularly serviced and MUCH of the responsibility for basic maintenance is covered.

HOWEVER .... I said "halfway" with you.

Some jobs, like power steering fluid, shouldn't drop much between services unless a fault develops. But tyres can lose pressure, acquire a slow puncture, or light bulbs can blow, at any time. Some basic checks really ought to be done by every car user. I'd include at the very least, a quick look at tyres, and a quick check of at least washer fluid, and lights. And if I'm going to pop the bonnet (typically, about fortnightly, plus before long journeys) to check washer fluid, it's the work of moments to have a peek at oil, brake fluid, etc.

As for changing bulbs, it's been a long time since I've needed to, but about my first job on getting a new car is to equip myself with a spare of each mandatory bulb, which I carry around in a little plastic box. A couple of times at least, over several decades of driving, I've been stopped by our boys in blue for a duff bulb, and being able to say "Oh bu.... er, bother, sorry Officer, I hadn't noticed but I'll change it now" has saved me from a ticket.

Every driver is legally responsible for the condition of the vehicle they're driving, and besides, knowing enough, and performing basic checks like lights, tyre pressures, etc, costs me 10 minutes every couple of weeks and might save lives, mine and my family's among them.

IMHO, every single driver ought to be able to do so, and for the ladies willing to admit they can't, or more likely don't want to, get boyfriend/husband/dad to do it, but ... shame on you.


Besides, if I omit basic servicing on my PC, it's unlikely to kill me. If I miss tyre, brake etc problems, between services, on my car, it just might.

[Ttaskmaster]

But that kind of job, these days, is necessary far less ofteh, not least because built quality is much better and because I tend far less to running old clunkers.

Depends entirely on the car - Many still require it and the demand for cheap cars that expire early, thus requiring the purchase of a new car, is what sees so many of my mechanic friends still able to buy Titan Xs without blinking.

Also, many aspects of those kinds of jobs increasingly require specialist knowledge and sometimes tools.

Many handbooks and workshop manuals say they require it... but often there are existing tools that work the same (usually because they still are the same).

But mostly, I don't do those kinds of jobs because I'd rather pay someone else to get cold, grimy and scrape their knuckles. Then, there's warranty issues to consider.

If it's still in warranty, then sure. That's just good sense.

Some basic checks really ought to be done by every car user.

Way I see it - If it's in the owner's manual, it's the owner's problem and duty to complete this maintenance.

As for changing bulbs, it's been a long time since I've needed to, but about my first job on getting a new car is to equip myself with a spare of each mandatory bulb, which I carry around in a little plastic box.

Again, if it's in yer manual...

Every driver is legally responsible for the condition of the vehicle they're driving, and besides, knowing enough, and performing basic checks like lights, tyre pressures, etc,

Exactly...

IMHO, every single driver ought to be able to do so, and for the ladies willing to admit they can't, or more likely don't want to, get boyfriend/husband/dad to do it, but ... shame on you.

I prefer they do it themselves regardless, as there may not be a man around when they really need it and this is the modern world where they get equal treatment.

Much of this stuff isn't done any better by a professional mechanic, as they just do what you'd do anyway. There's really no advantage to paying someone for doing the basic things you ought to do yourself.

Besides, if I omit basic servicing on my PC, it's unlikely to kill me.

I dunno... too much dust, static electrickery, sparks, fire, explosion...

[DanceswithUnix]

Way I see it - If it's in the owner's manual, it's the owner's problem and duty to complete this maintenance.

I think I know where you are coming from here:

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'

But...

I prefer they do it themselves regardless, as there may not be a man around when they really need it and this is the modern world where they get equal treatment.

I struggle to get wheel nuts off with a hand wrench and I'm not exactly small, my wife has no chance. I could add a 12V impact driver to the tools in the boot, but it is more expense, less load carrying capacity left, and potentially a heavy item flying around the inside of the car in an accident. Last I heard punctures are about once every 100K miles which is about 20 years for us. How much effort do you put in before just phoning the RAC and asking them to send a burly man with the right tools.

It isn't always about ignorance, sometimes it is a job you absolutely know you aren't going to be doing. That even went for a bulb change for me a while back. My hands were going numb with cold, I had the old bulb out and couldn't get the new one in despite knowing exactly how the mechanism works and having done it before. Figured someone with younger and more practiced hands than mine would just do it, whilst I wouldn't use them for anything important it seemed an ideal job for a young lad at the local Halfords. I hadn't even bought the bulb from them, but for a few quid they fitted it in seconds, job done, I was just glad to get back in the warm. Next bulb that went I did myself easily, because life is like that

[Ttaskmaster]

I struggle to get wheel nuts off with a hand wrench and I'm not exactly small, my wife has no chance.

Are you using your hands, or do you also try with a foot?
Do you crack the nuts off a half-turn or so before you jack the car up?

These are the two most common mistakes people make. Dunno about your specific vehicle, but my manual does actually cover this. You can also use a short, hollow tube extension to get better leverage and control, which usually weighs naff-all and still fits in the kit.

Alas, too many places use the air-ratchet to tighten wheel nuts and over-torque them, which messes it up for next removal and can wreck your locking wheel nut as well.

Last I heard punctures are about once every 100K miles which is about 20 years for us.

Yup... statistically.
But that doesn't mean your tyre will do exactly 100k/20 years before it gets a puncture - You could get one just twenty miles down the road. At one point it was also said you were statistically more likely to get a puncture within 150 miles of fitting a brand new tyre, for some reason...

How much effort do you put in before just phoning the RAC and asking them to send a burly man with the right tools.

Your call, naturally and there will be no shortage of people happily lining up to do the job you can't/won't, often at considerable cost... But if all it takes is a few moments of effort and getting slightly dirty, why not?
It's a point of pride for me, same as living on my own used to be (all those years ago), while many people today are actually proud to still live at home and mooch off their parents!

It isn't always about ignorance, sometimes it is a job you absolutely know you aren't going to be doing. That even went for a bulb change for me a while back. My hands were going numb with cold, I had the old bulb out and couldn't get the new one in despite knowing exactly how the mechanism works and having done it before.

I'd hop back in the car, warm my hands up and then have another bash at the darn thing.
I'm stubborn, though and if I know I should be able to manage something, I'm pretty set on doing so.

I just don't see why people would waste money (often a lot of money) on having someone else do either what it takes them a few moments of Googling and DIYing, or worse what they already can and have done for themselves.

With computer stuff, most of it is in the Help files or found online/in forums.

[Xlucine]

Seriously long breaker bars are widely available, and much better than the one in the car toolkit. Here's a 2.5' one for £15:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-750m...dp/B002PMJ2LE/

Much more appealing than waiting 30mins for someone else to show up to do it for me IMO

[DanceswithUnix]

Are you using your hands, or do you also try with a foot?
Do you crack the nuts off a half-turn or so before you jack the car up?

These are the two most common mistakes people make. Dunno about your specific vehicle, but my manual does actually cover this. You can also use a short, hollow tube extension to get better leverage and control, which usually weighs naff-all and still fits in the kit.

The nuts have generally been put on with a pneumatic wrench rather than correctly torqued. The Alfa came with an L shaped wrench which includes an extension tube to double the length, but if at home I reach for the 4 point star with a different wheel nut size on each end as that allows me to give a balanced pull and push at the same time. But all it takes is one really stubborn nut out of the five and you need a 4ft pole or an impact driver or that wheel ain't coming off.

I own a kit car, to do that you have to be OK with breaking down and making/repairing stuff yourself. I've driven the kit car home with the gear linkage snapped by manually selecting second gear with the engine stopped and then just using the clutch. But you only get so many days on this planet before your clogs are popped, and I don't want to spend an entire day changing a bulb where the engine bay is crowded enough that you can't see what you are doing. Heck, I even got a goose neck inspection camera out to make sure I hadn't damage the retention spring.

If people are lazy, then they get to give you their money. If they are happy with paying a tax for being lazy, just take their money you won't change them. You get money, they get their job done, everyone is happy.

They might not be lazy, they might be having a bad day like I was. Be nice, make the day nicer

Some people though just shouldn't be let near technical things. If they tried changing a bulb, they would somehow put a screwdriver through the entire headlamp unit despite not needing a screwdriver for any part of the job, and end up needing half a grand worth of corrective work. You know the sort

I also know people who are OK to drive, but are too arthritic to do something like change a bulb.

So try not to judge, there can be all sorts of reasons people want you to do what you think is a simple job. It might be they are scared, and a few simple lessons would get them going. If you don't know where to start, things like engines and PCs can seem bewildering.

People have told me how much they think could be done with my garden. Pfft, the lawn is mowed, I can't think of a worse way to spend my time, but they probably think I am just lazy

[DanceswithUnix]

Seriously long breaker bars are widely available, and much better than the one in the car toolkit. Here's a 2.5' one for £15:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-750m...dp/B002PMJ2LE/

Much more appealing than waiting 30mins for someone else to show up to do it for me IMO

Great tool for me, but still don't see my wife shifting anything with it.

Would be more interested in getting an impact wrench like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/AEG-97135-S.../dp/B004PZG59G

But still wouldn't want to keep it in the boot.

[peterb]

So... we've gone from new features in an operating system to

Removing the wheel nuts on a car using a breaker bar.....

Awesome!

[Saracen]

....

I just don't see why people would waste money (often a lot of money) on having someone else do either what it takes them a few moments of Googling and DIYing, or worse what they already can and have done for themselves.

You don't?

Reason 1) It depends on the job, but many of us can spend a morning working, as I said, in the warm, comfortable, nice coffee, music playing, and earn enough to pay someone else to work on the car for a morning, and have money left over.

Reason 2) Due to age, or infirmity, or disability, a variety of jobs will range from uncomfortable to impossible.

Reason 3) We may just hate getting cold, or working on cars. And be able to afford not to have to.

Reason 4) As in my case, all of reasons 1 through 3.

Quick jobs, like checking fluid levels, I do. Anything requiring an hour or more, or getting cold, wet, etc, I will, if appropriate, get someone to do it.

Last time I changed a wheel? Last week. Time before that? Dunno. 30 years ago? Why change it last week? Because it took me, admittedly in pitch black, freezing cold and p....ersisting rain, about 20 minutes, and waiting for the AA would have almost certainly been a lot longer than that.

[Ttaskmaster]

Much more appealing than waiting 30mins for someone else to show up to do it for me IMO

30 minutes?
You'll be lucky....!!

The nuts have generally been put on with a pneumatic wrench rather than correctly torqued.

Yeah, that'd be the problem... You're supposed to spin them on tight, drop the car and then tighten manually. Overtightening is bad!!

If people are lazy, then they get to give you their money. If they are happy with paying a tax for being lazy, just take their money you won't change them.

It ceases to be fun when they don't do the checks I tell them to, that they're supposed to do themselves... and then show up in hammering rain and freezing cold, expecting me to sort out an engine that hasn't seen oil in 30,000 miles, all for a reasonable sum.
Doesn't happen.

Some people though just shouldn't be let near technical things. If they tried changing a bulb, they would somehow put a screwdriver through the entire headlamp unit despite not needing a screwdriver for any part of the job, and end up needing half a grand worth of corrective work. You know the sort

If they cannot follow the simple instructions given, then yes they shouldn't have the car.
Same with a PC.

I also know people who are OK to drive, but are too arthritic to do something like change a bulb.

I have no problem with that.
My issue is with people who can do something, but prefer to take hours longer, drive further than is necessary (ie, at all) and pay stupid money for 30 seconds work... Some people should not be let anywhere near currency things!!

So try not to judge, there can be all sorts of reasons people want you to do what you think is a simple job. It might be they are scared, and a few simple lessons would get them going.

These are generally the types who don't fit the above. I'm talking about those with no reason to shirk a simple task, often when there's no reason for them not to.

People have told me how much they think could be done with my garden. Pfft, the lawn is mowed, I can't think of a worse way to spend my time, but they probably think I am just lazy

See, I do pay a gardener - But he has a whole range of decent tools that I cannot afford, he's semi-retired and this is his pocket money.

and earn enough to pay someone else to work on the car for a morning, and have money left over.

From the arguments I get, I'd say most people are utterly poor, even when you show them the invoices and that the parts really do cost that much... I've even quoted a few jobs in advance and upon hearing the quibbles, given them the parts and told them to do the fitting themselves... given a couple of mechanic's numbers out too, only to have the customer return and grudgingly pay up.
Best part is, I'm not a professional mechanic - I get roped into helping one out every now and then, in exchange for tea and biscuits, but that's it.

Due to age, or infirmity, or disability, a variety of jobs will range from uncomfortable to impossible.

In which case they can't do it for themselves and so aren't included in the lazy idiot bracket.

We may just hate getting cold, or working on cars. And be able to afford not to have to.

If that's the only excuse, you can catch the peasant waggon. I'll decline the job or charge a fortune, thanks.
I hear the same thing from people who blow a headlight bulb and, instead of sorting it, drive around with high beams on, if not full-on fogs...

[ik9000]

i think your last point misunderstood his sentence - he's not saying not do the work because he can't afford to, he's saying he has the luxury of being able to afford not to have to do the work himself - so can pay someone else to have the hassle on his behalf.