Read more.Quote:
And if so, what insight can you share for those who are on the fence?
Printable View
Read more.Quote:
And if so, what insight can you share for those who are on the fence?
Hell no!
I want to see the world burn and take us all with it.
I commute by bike, so no need right now
I do not.
Moreover, based on the people who do and have tried to convince me I should get one - I never will, if only so I don't become one of them!!
No.
Petrol head through and through. So very unlikely in the foreseeable future.
Half a dozen of different types.
Always liked my Scalextric.
No, but I would if the mileage increased and cost significantly decreased. Not currently cost effective
No.
I am too old for that, and too poor too.
So this side of a major lotto win only electric vehicles of mine are RC cars.
No but I certainly will at some point. Lots of models coming this year with new EU regulations kicking next year so I'm going to wait and see.
Hybrid makes more sence to me really. It will be a while before electric cars are affordable and practical for those on low income. And only then will it really start making a real difference.
Top Gear did a piece last season where they were trying to make an electric sports car
Now, of you look past the comedy. They did highlight a very important point. One of the presenters bought a 7 year old Nissan Leaf, which at that point had a range of around 35 miles.
So, it's past due for a battery replacement. But, the cost of a battery replacement far outweighs the cost of the car. So, it's a right off really. Scrap.
When you have a 7 year old car that's for the scrap heap. And 3/4 year old cars holding high prices for sale. It's clear the cars arn't ready for the majority of commuters on a budget.
Is it really environmentally friendly to be scrapping 7 year old cars when petrol ones are going 14 years??? (average, i googled it ;-) )
And it's certainly not cost effective for those on low wages.
High initial cost to buy.
Second hand prices remain very high.
Short life expectancy of the cars.
It's also extreamly short sighted of the government to ban petrol only cars, when cars with small engines get significantly higher MPG than many of the hybrid cars that will remain legal.
That's not even getting to the practicality of large numbers of houses and flats without driveways that would struggle to charge the cars are the moment.
Nope & probably never will.
The amount of people in here who have said something along the lines of "no I don't and no I never will" genuinely scares me.
I don't drive an EV just now, as our property lay out makes it impossible with the driveway being around 30 yards away, but when we move and can wire up a charger in the garage, I will definitely be considering something like the eGolf.
I recently saw a post about the material needs to fulfil only the UK's requirements for EV vehicles. It basically equated to nearly twice the worlds total output of cobalt alone never mind the actual energy costs of production of the materials (post here - https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/p...g-net-zer.html about halfway down).
Anyway, cost of entry alone is a big fat nope and, as mentioned above, longevity of the vehicle is another. Both my cars, a '98 Rover 200 Coupe and, my daily, an '06 Jag XK, are getting on a bit perhaps but are still very much serviceable (well the Rover's undergoing a bit of a restoration with plans involving a 3D scanner and printer for the unobtainable body panels), an EV at the same age? we'll see.
I'll certainly never swap for an EV at this time and the only cars I'd swap the Jag for (and it'd be a wrench) is a VVC equipped Elise (if I can fit in one and I love the engine, see the Rover) or a TVR Chimera, both older, slower and more unreliable than an EV but both with bags more character and, more importantly for me, less technology.
I don't own one, and am unlikely to do so until the cost of buying one is less than 4 months' salary and I can rely on it to do 10k-12k miles a year for 5-6 years minimum needing nothing more than tyres, brake pads, and routine servicing.
Let me think for a minute.... I live in the countryside..... so that will be a no and will likely remain a no for a very long time.
Until there is an infrastructure along with charging that is comparable to petrol/diesel having an ev, even if I wanted one, is just not practical in this area.
No, but maybe someday :)
The belief that electric cars have a low climate impact (good for the environment etc etc) scares me much more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonigan
VW recently published details on their 'cradle to grave' study between an e-golf and a golf tdi.
The results are quite alarming.
The crossover point in climate impact between the two vehicles is at 120,000km
The impact of building an e-golf is so bad that you can build a golf tdi and drive it 60,000km before the e-golf has driven a single km and the diesel still has less of a climate impact.
The study does show that over 200,000km an e-golf is better for the environment but only if it makes it that far on it's first battery.
If you have to change the battery you can kiss goodbye to ever catching back up to the tdi 200,000km, as the battery accounts for over 40% of the e-golf's manufacturing impact and would take another 120,000km to catch back up
Yes, I do.
Also a couple of light aircraft, an electric speedboat and several helicopters. Oh, and quads.
But assuming you meant full size versions, no, not currently (excuse pun).
There are several issues, not least cost (too high, generally), charging point (too few), range between charges (too few, by quite a way, unless lookjng at very expendive versions) and .... let's just say '"concerns" about battery longevity and performance over time, and replacement cost.
There is not, that I'm aware of, a model on the market that suits my needs, circumstances, objectives and tastes. When there is, I'll condider it seriously, at my next vehicle chwnge.
I like the idea. But currently, not the reality of the options,
When the battery tech catches up, then I'll consider it. Until then you can wrench my petrol powered car out of my cold dead hands.
nope they are toxic to the enviroment in the making, however when we get hydrogen fuel cells spread out am keen on it as could develop clean energy... for me it is not so much about being a petrol head or not, you can get faster and better and much easier to configure electric cars however would like something more hybrid alike or a motor that generates electricity for use in the car running on Bio Ethanol or Hydrogen, hence still skipping the traditional motor for a drive, lesser mechanical parts moving = more relieability.
yes a renault zoe
I do, a Hyundai Ioniq. I don't know the facts or a backup article but i've been referenced a taxi company that's been running all electric for 10 years with battery health still in the high 90's. It's only when they drop to 80-70% quality do they need to be changed. As I say, word of mouth so can't qualify, but battery degredation isn't as bad as the first estimates were thought to be...apparently. Earlier cars suffered from crap range but modern ev's hit 200+ under new testing rules for more accurate readings.
That aside the main reasons I own one are
A. the cost of the car - per month is no more than what I was paying before - a Golf GTD, granted not in the same quality bracket but that wasnt the driving force behind the decision. The not insignificant savings of at least £1100 a year on fuel, tax, insurance etc. was. It's just beneficial that the car is 0 emission - manufacturing aside.
B. The mileage I do on a weekly basis doesn't warrant me owning a thirsty diesel or a petrol. A single charge a week is enough to see me through (140mile range depending on conditions). So going electric made sense for my journey types.
There's apparently a lot of stigma around owning an electric car for not a huge amount of reason. The process of building one isn't as great as it should be currently, but since i've owned one i've not had any desire to go back, and these issues will improve in time, so why there isn't more excitement for them I don't understand. I actually rather enjoy driving past the petrol station looking at the fuel prices and when it's busy, the long queues!
Being slightly pedantic but since when did VW become a reliable source of information when it comes to anything to do with "official figures" :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwalton
That aside, the early versions of the e-golf managed shocking mileage due to it being retrofitted into a chassis not suited for a BEV. Only the latter models have anything respectable. So with that in mind, does this survey state the model, mileage and driving conditions? What manufacturing process and from what year? What about comparisons to other, purpose made EVs such as the Zoe, Tesla's, Kona, Ioqnics etc? All designed to actually be electric. There is too little of a comparative analysis across the segment, with too little information (unless you can supply a source?) rather than 2 specific (and one poor choice) of cars, then I would it's particularly old age thinking.
I say this because after a cursory googling, all I can find is articles refuting your claim from a study by VW: https://www.greencarcongress.com/201...425-vwlca.html
Maybe this article too... https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...e-says-VW.html
But then you are referencing the need to replace a battery in your argument, however my Hyundai has a 125,000 mile (or 200,000km), 8 year 70% health warranty so there would have to be a level of confidence through research and testing that it has the ability to achieve and go beyond that level of usage. In fact the battery warranty is for longer than the cars warranty! So yes I would expect it to make it to that mileage on it's first battery.
Again I think this boils down to old thinking about the state of EV technology. Granted - it's not incredible, but it's a damn sight better than most people realise
Quote:
Originally Posted by .havoc
Much of the problem, has to do with cost. And your not going to convince many by suggesting that your £30K car is very good....
Most people are buying 2nd hand cars or new small cars, hatchbacks or saloons on the cheaper end of the scale on finance. So, the vast majority of the population are driving around in cars significantly cheaper than the one you own. Spending £30k on a car just isn't an option for most people.
Most of the EV cars that are cheaper than the Ionic, you are required to hire the batteries. So, the Renault Zoe for example that someone owns above. For my milage, battery hire cost is £79 - £89 a month (model depenant). My current petrol spending. About £80 - £90 a month. (from a 1.6 Toyota Auris)
The Zoe is also about the same size as a Clio.
The Clio is 9K cheaper to buy. That will have better MPG than my car so it will be cheaper to run than the Zoe.
What reason is there to pick the Zoe over the Clio? Your basically excepting that you are paying more for a car that's no bigger, has a shorter range, more expencive to run, won't last as long.
Electric cars just don't make that much sence if your on a tight budget.
Even if i was in the position to spend £30K on a car. Ionic EV at the moment wouldn't even be in my thoughts, when there are far cheaper options, and not just regular cars. Corolla Hybrid is £9K cheaper. The Ionic Hybrid £8K cheaper. Yaris Hybrid is only £13K
They are more environmentally friendly than regular petrol only cars, 2nd hand pricing is more stable, they're much cheaper to buy than electric and not too much more than the petrol only equivenalnt, have a much longer range, will last longer.
Also, as someone that occasionally has to do long drives for work. The Ioniq in the cold on motorways range on good batteries could be as little as 85 miles.
https://ev-database.uk/car/1057/Hyundai-IONIQ-Electric
That would be a problem for me, even if i did have £30K to spend on a car. Which i don't.
Oh I'm not trying to convince you at all, you are all adults with your own requirements to what you need. I am just trying to balance out the sudden on rush of negativity and slight tinge of misunderstanding about them is all. What works for me doesn't mean it will work for you.
And I wholeheartedly agree with you on the cost to purchase, it only makes sense if you happen to already be in that pricing bracket. Otherwise it's years (10+) before the purchase price is balanced by the running cost. Although I'd say once you own an EV theres little reason to return, for me anyway as my other half has a petrol car so she can handle anything longer than my range can. But in theory you would make up those savings over time if you stuck with it. The only reason I actually went with the EV over the hybrid (was actually looking at the corolla) was because I am fortunate enough, or in other words lived at home long enough to blow money on cars - thanks parents!, to own a car in that bracket in the first place. It just so happened the Ioniq was being sold cheaper than the alternatives so it JUST crept into my price bracket (it was second hand, nowhere near 30k, at all!). Otherwise the cost to purchase would have been far too high.
And the hiring of the batteries I think is a particularly stupid idea myself, not a fan subscription services anyway!
The range can be an issue, I fortunately don't make that many long distance journeys though so thats why I can go electric. For others, it's not the time yet. Although I believe the Kona - still not cheap - can do 280miles, once this is more widespread, range anxiety becomes less of an issue and you can go from charging weekly for £3.50 to monthly for £3.50, at least that's my plan.
Don't get me wrong I am not saying they are perfect, for example I really dislike the fact that :
1. The cost of buying is higher than standard cars - as we have come to expect from early adopters tax
2. I can't drive with the air-con as it immediately dumps 10 miles from the range, though I prefer the windows open anyway
3. The charging infrastructure is actually a lot better than I thought! A LOT! BUT it's too fragmented. Pod point requires an app and account, Polar requires a subscription service & a physical "charge card" to use theirs (no thanks, only makes sense if regularly charging on the motorway), most don't support payments from contactless yet (wtf...), a lot of public charge points are taken up by non-ev's using its as a parking space (thanks...) or are just plain broken from vandalism or are inoperable. Zap Map is a great way of identifying them and finding out their status though.
4. Being a bit of a petrol head...I do miss the sound of a powerful engine
5. Remembering to charge it... haven't been caught out yet. Can't just get in and go, have to plan.
6. They always tend to look a little weird. Just make it look like a normal car! Looking at you BMW!
7. Costly manufacturing process
All that being said, I still think it's a great investment and it's definitely been the right decision for ME, even for just the cost savings alone.
Until they have swappable batteries or can be quickly charged I'll pass.
No, I've not even owned a car for the last 20 years.
I do. I'm on my second Renault Zoe.
They both cost me new about £11,000 with a bit of haggling with the dealer, I've done both on the run of a mill PCP finance deal. Residual is around the £6K mark. The reason I went for PCP is because I didn't want the risk of trying to sell on second hand batteries, although that doesn't seem to have materialised as the second hand market seems easier to shift sales than second hand sports cars.
Renault push the battery rental idea, but you don't have to go this route. And it's not an option with a Nissan, for example. I um'ed on this for a while and I can see why they have done it. I pay ~£70/m on battery rental, the up shot of not owning the batteries is that when cells start to fail, they'll be replaced - quite a piece of mind.
It also doesn't really matter when you're buying a car on finance, there's just a monthly outgoing - however Renault want to dice that up is fairly irrelevant. Then there was just the raw financials of it. I was spending about £250/m on petrol. My first Zoe cost me £175/m including battery rental - I'm already quids in. I had no initial deposit on the first one, so it was literally just paying £175/m from day one until the end.
On the other hand, Nissan made a good point, it's not just one giant battery, yes cells will start to fail and you'll pay to replace them bit at a time. Just like you pay to replace other components on mechanically more complex standard cars.
At the end of 3 years in my first Zoe, there was no noticeable deterioration on the charge it would hold and nothing flagged up in servicing. I also had the option if I kept that one (100 mile range version) to upgrade the batteries with at a small cost (never investigated, so don't know how much) to the newer higher density batteries in the newer vehicles.
Instead I go a new one which realistically can do 200 miles in stop-start over very hilly terrain.
To the commenter above who lives in the country, so do I. There were no charging points anywhere near us for a long time, but it's not a problem if you have off-street parking as if you buy new, a charger is bundled for free (including fitting). I'd say on average we charge publicly less than once per year. That said, if you're a motorway warrior and doing regular > 200 miles a day without wanting a twenty minute stop at the services, then an electric car isn't for you.
Range anxiety on the low-mileage Zoe disappeared pretty quickly as we got faith in the "miles remaining", and took it down to 4 miles left on more than one occasion. Combined with free recovery even for flat batteries bundled in, it just was a non-issue. My current 200+ version it isn't even a thought. I was in deep Somerset a few years ago and spoke to a Leaf driver in a carpark as the last time I checked there were no charging points around, she said she just charges at home and I was welcome to charge my car up - I didn't need to, I was just interested, but with more owners around, in a push, you could probably blag a charge off somebody.
On the sustainable side of things. About half of the UK's carbon emissions are passenger cars. And about half of the average house hold's carbon emissions is transport. An electric car combined with a carbon-neutral energy tariff (plus we have solar that helps) is a great way to reduce that, substantially. Now, they're not perfect, and they're not a long-term solution. Battery cars will be here for a long time, but other technologies are more sustainable longer term. Manufacturing of batteries and recycling is tricky at the moment, but improving year on year. Of course, if you can do without a car, then that's even better, we can't.
Would you be better off in getting a second hand small engined petrol car? Possibly, but that's already a different market segment we're talking about.
On the second hand front, a colleague of mine picked up a Leaf for about £6K and is happy as larry with it. The batteries are still in top shape and he plans to drive it into the ground. When the batteries are no longer good enough for the car he intends to use it as a very large battery pack for the home-solar, extending the life of the batteries even further. But who knows, by then recycling might make more sense.
I went into the show room with a chip on my shoulder and no intention of getting one, just to humour my wife. I'm happily on my second now. What are the downsides to electric ownership? Off-street parking is, in my opinion, a must. Just being able to chuck it on charge whenever makes owning one easier than any fossil-fuelled car. The range is there now, I used to say it's an excellent second car, but I'd be happy in having electric as my only car and renting on the occasion I want to drive to the middle of nowhere.
The Zoe is primarily my wife's car, we use it as much as possible, and share commutes when we can. And I do have a conventional petrol sports-car; it's used a lot less frequently now and still allows for me to go out for a fun drive every now and then.
Is there a down-side to owning a £11K Renault? Yes, plenty. It doesn't compare to a £60K Audi, but that's not down to the electric drive train.
If you're in the market for a sub-20K (Fiesta starts at £12K, Golf at £18K, last year's top selling cars), then I'd highly recommend going and test driving an electric car.
Comments here from .havoc and Dashers are very interesting. It's exacyly the kind of feedback, from existing owners, that is helpful. If nothing else, it cuts through some of both the marketing hype and resistance to change, to give a feel for real-workd usage.
Thanks, guys.
It also helps a bit cut through what's probably my singke biggest reservation .... I understand the petrol (ir diesel) m8del perfectly well, but some of the aspects of EV are, to me at least, still a bit of a mystery.
One biggie is that when I buy a car, it tends to be for a LONG duration. My last non-utilitarian purchase was 20+ years ago (excluding the run-around). That, for example, means the cost of the vehicle can be spread over 20 years of more, making an expensive car far more appealing than if you change cars every three (say) years, which means you eat the most expensive bit all the time, every year, on a 3-year cycle. Work out what that adds up to on, a normal midrange car at about £20k and you'll see my point. This, obviously, applies to those buying cars new, which I have since the '80s.
But .... it does mean I have to try to predict what might happen with, say, batteries, not just 3 or 5 years down the road, or even 10, but 20 ir 25 years in. And ... batteries? Dunno. Just don't know.
The next non-run-around I buy will almost certainly be my last, and the data to give me peace of mind doesn't exist. I think it's just too early in the life of EVs for me to be prepared to take the risk, mewning I either have to wait, and that puts the 20-25 year plan at risk, or jump now but with petrol .... and hope I can still get it in 20 years.
Those that will 'never' get an EV. I can remember the same statements when the smoking ban was introduced. Something along the lines of "They'll never stop me smoking wherever i want" etc.
I suspect the same will happen to fossil fuel transport. When they are eventually forced to queueing up to share the few gas pumps that are left on the forecourts, amidst the dirty looks and sniggers, as they pay a fortune to keep their dinosaurs going.
In 30 years there will hardly be a gasoline driven car to be seen.
In 30 years time cars technology will have evolved to include better battery technology or batteries will have given way to alternative clean fuels like hydrogen. The cars will probably be autonomous requiring no driver intervention apart from exceptional circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmaheid
I do not have an electric car.
Neither my home nor my place of work have the infrastructure in place, and very unlikely to in the near future if ever. The cost to have charging points put in place for every space is very high and disruptive.
I'm more interested in how hydrogen develops, if I can fill on the go it's far more convenient and what I see as a better diesel alternative.
Waiting for my car to charge just so I can get home is a terrible idea. I have regularly driven to Scotland and back in a day. I could not currently do that with the battery or charging tech of today.
Not sure who you mean by "never get" but judging by that 30-year criteria, it may refer to my last post. If so, you haven't read what I said carefully. I *want* an EV .... provided it meets my needs, as outlined earlier. And, provided it meets the financiam aspects. Currently, none do. As for 30 years, I'm pretty indiffernt to what's happening then because the odds of me still driving anything are minimal if I'm lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmaheid
Also, I'll give you three .... no, you'll only need one .... guess about how much I care about 'dirty looks and sniggers". If you shared my fashion sense, you-d know I have to be utterly immune to caring what others think. ;) :)
Unfortunately I don't. I wouldn't mind but there is still such a premium attached to them right now.. Lets all safe the planet people :-)
Whilst I am interested in the possibilities provided by alternative fuel vehicles, for me right now they are just too expensive and impracticle for my use case.
What I find most worrying about an only electric car future though seems to have been completely missed by most peopel here. Currently the National Grid has to plan ahead to be able to balance loads for lots of people putting a kettle on at the same time (at half time for a World CUp game for example). How is the grid going to cope with everyone getting home from work and putting all of the cars on to charge at the same time? Especially if we consider that it is currently only possible for a few houses in a street to have a charging point installed due to the infrastructure not being up to standard to be able to support more at once.
I've been a petrol (or diesel) head for many years and currently have a diesel Fabia vRS which I bought when diesel was safe for everyone and a good option for reducing CO2. I've had much hotter cars in the past but I love the torque and economy combined with it.
Seriously looking at electric for my next car but I'm realistically restricted to the used market. As I want something still sporty then there appears to be only one option under £15k and that's a BMW i3. All the other options are just too lacking in grunt, I don't drive fast I just want enough power available for wen I want/need it.
I'd have to love it a lot to justify spending £15k as that's double the amount I've ever spent on a car.
I'm just not sure the built-in-range vs infrastructure is quite there yet though on the earlier i3 models or other EV cars in my budget. So if it doesn't wow me enough then probably a small petrol hot hatch despite wanting an electric.
Can't justify affording to spend that much on a car, just to see the internal combustion car that I drive be driven by someome else anyway, while I see my new electric car be transported half way round the globe on a diesel powered traporter ship and diesel trucks, having been made by smelting steel and digging precious metals from the earth to create it, leather clad and Air Con gassed, glass made and plastic trims created, lithium barries and electrric motors wound.......
I'll go now,.....
What no one seems to want to mention is if we drove electric cars the countries power network would collapse. It's not even close to being able to provide sufficient power (max power output would have to over double, the cabling to take all that power around the country would need upgrading and local cabling in cities would need completely redone). It's not a problem that's being fixed either - as that would be very expensive, particularly if you wanted to do it green.
Hence if you hear any MP telling us how we'll all be electric in a few years time, know that they don't really have a clue and are just saying it to sound good.
The National Grid have stated on a number of occasions that we have plenty of capacity for the ramp up to electric vehicles, even if the take up rate is much higher than predicted. https://theenergyst.com/millions-electric-vehicles-sooner-predicted-no-sweat-says-national-grid/Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble
I do, but it is radio-controlled :-)
Joke aside, the economics of buying an electric car is just not there for me (my car has been paid out, has high mileage), so if I wanted to go electric now, it would be quite a raise of cost in my budget.
If I was going to buy a new one now, I would probably go for Hyundai Kona on lease.
Next year will be the big one, as many big players are coming to the market. Geneva Car Show 2020 will be great.
No. Although, eventually I'm likely to do so, I'm going to be buying an electric bike first and foremost.
Electric cars are often sold as the panacea to pollution in our cities, however all they really do is shift the generation of pollutants externally, and do nothing about the congestion or death (1700 a year) and destruction caused by drivers of vehicles on our society.
We need fewer cars, not newer cars.
I'm sorry that my inability to afford a jumped up golf cart scares you. I'm sorry that where I live and work being so unlikely to see charging infrastructure installed scares you. I'm sorry that my aggressive distaste for being preached at by self-righteous [censored] cry-bullies scares you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonigan
Most people I know round here live in terraces and have to park several hundred yards from their house. But even if they could park right outside (never happen as long as someone can make money from parking restrictions), the infrastructure would be getting nicked or vandalised on a nightly basis. Sorry if that scares you.
The queues will be electric owners all waiting for their turn at a 'quick-charge'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmaheid
Us diesel demons will zip up in the morning, refuel and be gone within 5 minutes. Might wave at you on my way home that evening.
Meanwhile, the minute electric cars become the majority, electric charging will cost an absolute fortune... and you'll still be limited to 10 minutes at a time, lest you cause even longer tailbacks. It'll be like when there were fuel strikes, but permanent and not even something you could blame on the French!
Peak power in this country (if they turn everything on) is about 60 million kw (i.e. about 1kw/person or 1/3 of an electric kettle). We do hit that when we all turn the kettle on half way through a big football game. That's for everything too - not just for you it's for police stations, street lights, the lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzark
A rapid charger for one electric car draws 43kw alone, let alone buses/trucks/etc. If we were all using electric cars with 50-100Kw/h batteries, and buses/trucks say 300Kw/h batteries and need charging every other day then you can do the math.
In addition the cost of electric power goes through the roof when you have all the cheap power stations running and have to start powering up the expensive ones to reach the grids max power - by through the roof it's the cost for those last few million kw can be 1000's of times the cost when it's quiet.
That's one of my concerns. For mych of my usage (7%, at a guess) and EV would be fine, and a 100-mile range adequate but I quite regularly do 150-mile trips, and less often but still enough to be an issue, 300-400 trips. Ideally, I don't want to stop on the latter, and definitely don't on the shorter trips. I emphatically don't want to be expected to stop fir a coffee and a sandwich while my car charges. 10 minutes in a layby, a homemade sarnie and a flask of my own coffee will do fine, and I resent blatant overcharging at most motorway service stations. Besides, I prefer my own sandwiches to theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster
Anyway, the point is, until an EV can cover a similar range between 'fuel stops' and take the same sort of time as filling a tank, it's not going to be an attractive propositioj for me, or for quite a lot of others. They either have to significantly improve the technology (very plausible, over a period of years) or somehow massively shift driver expectations.
For some reason when i tried googling it i couldn't find the study from the horses mouth.
But since i viewed the article at work it's now my top google result.
https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news...the-wheel.html
VW are actually quite open about the findings and you're right the e-golf is not a good BEV so much so they halted sales some time ago in part to bolster second hand values and avoid the Zoe situation.
On the Note of the Zoe the cost to buy the battery outright last time i looked (some time ago mind) is the same as 5 year / 50k miles lease. Tesla have pulled a lot of batteries from their cars to do power storage projects.
Back to VW they admit that the power source has a big impact on it's lifetime emissions and that in Germany and USA the e-golf emits slightly higher and in China a lot higher. They also intend to recycle batteries over and over with most of the polluting materials only needed the once.
I suspect a recent top gear episode has an impact on opinions on batteries. they purchase a first gen leaf which when new only had a 100 mile or so range on it but through the episode they're getting around 30 miles from a charge
Never mind....
not currently but next car (3 years time) will almost certainly be. Was taken for a short drive in a Tesla S a few years back and ICE cars just seem like stone-age tech to me now.
The only thing preventing me having one now is that I have nowhere to install the charging point (my driveway is not adjacent to the house and I'd have to dig up a big stretch of shared ownership tarmac to get power to the car). In three years time I would like to think that a 2nd hand Tesla 3 might be in my price range (as a cash buyer) but they are being projected to hold on to around 60% residual value, so finance on a new one is looking more likely (or some other newish model that's around then, possibly the new VW ID3).
As for all the weird misinformation in previous posts... the batteries generally don't degrade by much at all over the normal lifetime of the car. By the time you'll be looking at replacing the battery (around 10 years) much of the rest of the car will be obsolete and equivalent batteries will be far cheaper anyway.
Running costs over the car lifetime are a fraction of that of a conventional ICE car. Just brakes and tyres to replace.
Carbon footprint of electric car is much smaller than ICE cars cradle to grave.
Infrastructure may lag a bit but there's no great extra requirement for power, that can't be managed within the existing grid.
Google some *reliable* info if you have doubts about the accuracy of what I've said (not some Top Gear comedy episode). There are people in the US and Northern Europe who have been running fleets of electric cars as taxis and they have proven the durability and cost effectiveness.
Note also that everyone is still playing catch-up to Tesla - so the battery/motor/management tech (which is what determines range efficiency) is just not as good in other makers vehicles and there may well be some duds out there, just as there are plenty of "lemons" in the realm of conventional cars.
I can't speak for the opinions of others, but it had no relevance to my reservations, as I haven't seen it. I haven't seen any Top Gear at all since the team change, and was an irregular viewer beforehand. And on case anyone's wondering, no, haven't seen any of Clarkson's new prog either.Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwalton
no but i do own an electric/rechargeable motorcycle.. :clapping:
I thought this was debunked, given the mining of minerals for the batteries and all of the other fancy electronic parts inside them vs a normal ICE car?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad77
I might be slightly more interested if EV interiors didn't all look ridiculous.
I guess I see those the same way most Hexites see RGB in computer cases... except I can turn off my RGB, but an EV is rather reliant on those iPads bolted onto the dash like some drunken afterthought.
I do - A Nissan Leaf. And I get the actual range, not the 30 miles that Top gear saw - they must have taken it to a hill-climb or something. Or bought a dud.
We decided not to get a hybrid because we didn't want to have to maintain an ICE engine.
My commute is only around 20kms, and we still have a petrol car for long range duties.
When we started looking at electric I'd assumed it would feel pretty horrid to drive, but we'd save money. I actually really enjoy driving it - the low center of gravity combined with the instant response is fun, even in the Leaf (which I consider a pretty entry level EV).
Charging is easy - it just uses a standard wall outlet overnight, so it draws about as much as running a heater. I'm in NZ, so 240V, and 0 to full takes 12-14 hours at ~8A.
Some of the stuff I appreciate about it that don't really get mentioned are things like..
The engine is never "cold". With our ICE car, I always feel like I have to baby the engine a little until it warms up.
It's so quiet. You turn it on, it dings a bit, then pretty much all you hear is the heater fans.
Heating the cabin isn't based off the car engine, so it starts working straight away.
Every time I get into it in the morning, the battery is full.
0-50kmph is fun. It's no Tesla, but it has enough "pep" to be enjoyable.
The obvious ones are the cost savings - we're spending $60 less a week on fuel. And next to no maintenance.
Downsides are the range limitations (why we kept an ICE car) and, tbh, the steering is a bit woolly.
70-100kmph doesn't have the same kick as the 0-50kmph. Our petrol car is much better in the 70-100 bracket.
Re: carbon impact. It takes more carbon to make an electric car, but over its lifetime the carbon footprint is much smaller. There is a bunch of info out about that, and most of them are *very* generous towards the ICE cars. E.g. not taking into account what it costs to get the oil, refine it and transport it to get it into your car (but they still count generating electricity via coal, for example). And the EVs still come out on top after a couple of years (distance driven depending).
If you're genuinely interested look into it. There is heaps of info out there now.
No, EVs aren't for everyone. But there are a lot of people that just don't like the idea of them but haven't tried one.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't have got one just to save the planet (if I'm being honest). It was actually a great car upgrade for us, and saves us money over the long run. In fuel savings it'll pay for itself in 10 years. 0 emissions is a side benefit :P
EVs are probably great for people that already have the facilities and lifestyle to accommodate one, but that don't like having to drive as part of their lifestyle.
Those who are quite picky about their vehicles, and choose to drive or ride because they enjoy it are probably not best suited to EVs, I imagine...
That'd depend in the EV. 0-60 in a couple of seconds with no irritating gear changes is quite fun. I like dropping through the cogs in my car but having max power and torque on tap all the time beats that hands down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster
Nah, see Stukes post. Considerably smaller carbon footprint.Quote:
Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig
This is exactly the issue we have at the moment, and will be a big problem for a lot of people who live in flats and high-rise buildings, I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad77
Meh - My bike is faster, even with a gear change in between... although it technically will do 75mph in 1st without redlining!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad77
TBH, that kind of straight line acceleration gets old. I get more fun from dropping down into 3rd and whanging it perfectly round the country lane twisties, before powering back on and up to 4th again.
But every time people bring up how fast EVs are as a selling point, I just look at the various types of [censored] people already on the roads and seriously question whether giving them something with that kind of performance is a good idea....!!
It's definitely going off-topic somewhat but I completely agree. The fact that you gain your UK driving licence in a Ford Focus or Citroen C3 then you're qualified to drive anything of any kind of power is insane. The bike licence is very different for this very reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster
IMHO the driving test has needed changing for a while, instructors are training people to pass a test so their figures look good, rather than training them to drive properly, I know people that have passed their test, but wont drive on motorways or dual carriageways or cant talk to poeple in the car becasue they're concentrating that much, but still, tangent...
Not IME, I've met plenty of petrolheads who adore their electric car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster
I would have one, I just can't justify that sort of up front investment specially when I don't do enough miles to get any return from the lower per mile running costs.
I did qualify that with the 'picky' part.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
Given the choice, I won't even drive an auto-box because I prefer manual. Same for electric handbrakes.
I'm pretty sure picky is implied in "petrolhead". I'm with you on those, but then not needing a gearbox at all doesn't seem to faze me. I guess "I have control of when it changes gear" and "it never has to change gear" are equivalent levels of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster
The idea of big V8 torque without the fuel bill or engine complexity is compelling. But 50K for a second hand car... if I had that sort of money I would rather 40K on a Maserati with lots spare for servicing and fuel.
I notice Harley Davidson are making and electric bike. I'm sure that must be telling me something, though I'm not sure what :D
Would love to, but not at that price. Were they suggesting 2025 before the price has fully settled?
Probably bought my last car anyway, unless self driving progresses faster than electrification.
Electric vehicles still really need another step in battery technology to lighten the load. Lots promised, but getting it to production is another matter. Sadly Elon Musk (the sort of person who makes things pushes ahead) has plumped for reducing the cost of existing technology with his new battery production line.
Depends how you define that. A petrolhead to me is someone who geeks out over stats and performance and parts and swapping this bit for that bit because you get an extra 5bhp. They will spend £9819.43 just to make an E46 330d go round a track half a second faster than an E92 M3*.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
By comparison, I take a picky driver to be more focussed on how the headlights are switched on, whether the gear lever on the steering column blocks the centre console vent from blowing cool air on your left hand**, whether a lift or button or press down mechanism is better for selecting reverse, whether an Octavia is better than a Golf despite having the exact same interior design.
In short - What it does versus how it does it, with a leaning toward the latter.
Doesn't faze me either and I cope well enough with the wife's car, but given the choice I want a manual. It's about the physicality of it and the engagement with driving.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
I always liken these things to racking the slide on a pump-action shotgun - Yes, it would be simpler and easier to just press a touchscreen button and have it happen silently... but it's FAR more fun to rack that slide and have it go "CHAK-CLACK"!!
It tells you that a company typically ridiculed over charging 2019 prices for 1940s technology, who've had to restructure and cut a load of jobs lately, are taking drastic measures and making drastic departures from their signature brand in order to stay afloat.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
*Yes, I watch Car Throttle.
**On a 2003 Honda CR-V, I'm sorry to say that it does... and it's flippin' annoying!!
I'll be considering both BEV and hybrids next time. But right now I think I'll be expecting to use it mostly for commuting, and charging it only at home, so I don't care very much about charging station availability. If I need a vehicle for a long road trip, renting one makes more sense anyway.
I'm leaning towards BEV, because I'm eager to have less maintenance to worry about. On the other hand, my current (gas-using) car is a model year 2000, and I'd like to have my next car for a long time, too, so I want to hear more about battery life advances. If a battery replacement 10 years or so down the line is the only major maintenance expense besides tires, that seems like a pretty good tradeoff. My parents had to have the battery replaced on their hybrid a while back, and they still seem to think it was a good deal.