Apple MacOS Arm64 will only support Apple Metal GPUs

[BobF64]

Mind you it makes no difference to me seeing as mac aren't exactly popular with the companies that make 3D software.

I think that is where Apple will have done their research, decided what markets there are out there, and just how much of it is likely to remain with Apple after the change, then just gone with it, willing to abandon "insignificant" segments.

If the increase in profits offsets the medium term losses from some users not moving on to their ARM platforms, then it won't bother them.
The Intel Macs will have at least a 5 year life, even though Apple will presumably stop releasing macOS 11 for Intel in 2 years time, as long as the hardware and software keeps working, why would people just drop it in favour of something that doesn't do what they want?

Consider that Apple products have gone from "niche designer/artist" goods to "mass consumer home products", this trend would seem likely to continue.

[LSG501]

I don't think Apple really care about pros any more....
This will kill their use for 3d modelling and real heavy photoshop work and make them more an ipad/thin laptop company

To be honest a fair few people I know in the 'design industry' basically feel the same way.

I think that is where Apple will have done their research, decided what markets there are out there, and just how much of it is likely to remain with Apple after the change, then just gone with it, willing to abandon "insignificant" segments.

If the increase in profits offsets the medium term losses from some users not moving on to their ARM platforms, then it won't bother them.
The Intel Macs will have at least a 5 year life, even though Apple will presumably stop releasing macOS 11 for Intel in 2 years time, as long as the hardware and software keeps working, why would people just drop it in favour of something that doesn't do what they want?

Consider that Apple products have gone from "niche designer/artist" goods to "mass consumer home products", this trend would seem likely to continue.

I agree that Apple are more than willing to do short term losses, its not like they're short of money, and to be fair I'd say their focus is now on driving 'services' and the hardware is just about accessing that. A single unified and locked down hardware base is their ideal situation.... (I've said it before how ironic Apple's approach is compared with the 1984 advert)

I have seen on other sites a fair few people saying they can't go arm based because they need bootcamp for that 'one' program. Got to be honest, I'd like to see Apple lose it's appeal, just to give them a wake up call, but then I don't fall for marketing or feel the need to be 'trendy'..it's about as much use as being a 'model' on instagram to me lol.

[Kato-2]

eGPU is not possible without driver support baked into OSX and there are clearly no plans for Arm OSX drivers for Intel, AMD, Nvidia.

Most likely Apple will continue to use x86 hardware in the high end, too much Apple productivity software relies on it at least until Apple's own designs get good enough.

[Corky34]

I can see why they are doing this, however, I think it will backfire on them..

Really? I can't and I'm not being factious when i say that, i sort of get that there must be some advantages to 'tuning' the hardware to better suite your software, and does this unify with their mobile stuff (they use ARM on there, right. But idk what graphics are used).

But wouldn't those advantages be outweighed by the disadvantages of things like developers not wanting to develop (learn) a new way of doing things, and the reduced number of programs that go with that, the switch to ARM i get, the switch to Metal i don't

[3dcandy]

Really? I can't and I'm not being factious when i say that, i sort of get that there must be some advantages to 'tuning' the hardware to better suite your software, and does this unify with their mobile stuff (they use ARM on there, right. But idk what graphics are used).

But wouldn't those advantages be outweighed by the disadvantages of things like developers not wanting to develop (learn) a new way of doing things, and the reduced number of programs that go with that, the switch to ARM i get, the switch to Metal i don't

Mac Pro? The easily £25k machine being ARM and Metal based? That machine is basically obsolete now. A quick straw poll amongst my music making buddies who are MacOS based is basically 99% will switch away from Apple now or in the near future

Yes ARM is mobile with iphone and iPad and both are Metal based. So all the laptops will be based on the same architecture as an iPad/Iphone and this is proving to be a right turn off with many saying they'll get a Windows laptop next time

[LSG501]

But wouldn't those advantages be outweighed by the disadvantages of things like developers not wanting to develop (learn) a new way of doing things, and the reduced number of programs that go with that, the switch to ARM i get, the switch to Metal i don't

Well Apple will have all the iOS developers producing 'top quality' professional software for macs......

Big Sur is adding support for iOS apps and if you look at the design language it's shifting towards iOS too.. give it a few years of iterations gradually shifting things further and I can see apple converting OS-X into an updated version of iPad OS for 'desktops' along with the walled garden where you can only get your apps from Apple where they get their 30% cut (services side of things).

[Corky34]

Now it makes more sense, at least from an apple business side of things. I guess it comes down to if Mac developers want to learn a new way of doing things and how willing Apples is to accommodate their needs in what i would guess are mobile orientated API's.

It seems something like this could either make or break Mac's.

[3dcandy]

Yes basically the Mac will die as a serious platform for many with this move but Apple will control everything. Adobe already have Photoshop etc. running on ARM but there is a report somewhere saying that already people are leaving in droves from CC on Mac and the Mac Pro demand has completely dried up. AMD and nVidia are happy as Apple has screwed them both over and those gpu's are NOT supported moving forward at all meaning unless Apple brings out a very fast and expensive accelerator (again like the one in the Mac Pro) then the productivity side of things is gone really as the performance is so bad relative to a pc. Strangely Linux appears to be the big winner here as quite a few have made the jump according to the same report (which of course I cannot locate right now)

[DanceswithUnix]

Now it makes more sense, at least from an apple business side of things. I guess it comes down to if Mac developers want to learn a new way of doing things and how willing Apples is to accommodate their needs in what i would guess are mobile orientated API's.

It seems something like this could either make or break Mac's.

Is Metal a mobile oriented API? I got the impression it was just a "me too" bandwagon jump in the early days when Mantle showed the way things were going to go, just without the flexibility of Vulkan. So like DirectX 12 it has no reason to exist other than customer lock-in and control. I suspect Apple couldn't bring themselves to adopt Vulkan now though given that Google have adopted it for Android graphics.

As a programmer it is another thing driving me away from the Apple eco system. I have a company ipad here, it feels odd to have access to a device which I feel absolutely no interest in playing with as a target platform.

[3dcandy]

Is Metal a mobile oriented API? I got the impression it was just a "me too" bandwagon jump in the early days when Mantle showed the way things were going to go, just without the flexibility of Vulkan. So like DirectX 12 it has no reason to exist other than customer lock-in and control. I suspect Apple couldn't bring themselves to adopt Vulkan now though given that Google have adopted it for Android graphics.

As a programmer it is another thing driving me away from the Apple eco system. I have a company ipad here, it feels odd to have access to a device which I feel absolutely no interest in playing with as a target platform.

Basically metal only targets Apple gpu's locking out the nvidia and AMD offerings (well technically it will in next MacOS)

[DanceswithUnix]

Basically metal only targets Apple gpu's locking out the nvidia and AMD offerings (well technically it will in next MacOS)

Hence I said without the flexibility of Vulkan, given the effort would be required to get a new GPU up to speed on a one vendor API where the vendor has a history of turning on their graphics partners. Apple could still lock out other vendors at the OS level, they don't need Metal for that, so from an engineering point of view Metal is just an exercise in self harm by Apple. But then Apple isn't an engineering lead company, so no surprise.

[Corky34]

Is Metal a mobile oriented API?

I've not got a clue.

Now i think about it it wasn't so much the GPU API i was thinking about but the ARM stuff as (afaik) isn't that more geared towards mobile (aka using less power to do the same job vs x86), does the underlying hardware effects the API much? (as in what can or can't be done in the API).

I mean i agree that Vulkan seemed like a better choice re not splitting things up even more but I'll admit i know very little about the advantage or disadvantage, from a developers perspective, of using one over the other.

[DanceswithUnix]

I've not got a clue.

Now i think about it it wasn't so much the GPU API i was thinking about but the ARM stuff as (afaik) isn't that more geared towards mobile (aka using less power to do the same job vs x86), does the underlying hardware effects the API much? (as in what can or can't be done in the API).

I mean i agree that Vulkan seemed like a better choice re not splitting things up even more but I'll admit i know very little about the advantage or disadvantage, from a developers perspective, of using one over the other.

ARM was originally a desktop chip, the instruction set doesn't make it particularly suited to mobile. Well, only when compared to x86 which has so many historic stupidities built in that it has a slight power disadvantage vs just about anything modern. The CPU hardware shouldn't impact the API, hence Vulkan is on my phone and my desktop.

In terms of graphics APIs, they all evolve with time so no one API will be better than any other. As a programmer it is just pointless knowledge churn to learn something with a limited market.

[3dcandy]

Hence I said without the flexibility of Vulkan, given the effort would be required to get a new GPU up to speed on a one vendor API where the vendor has a history of turning on their graphics partners. Apple could still lock out other vendors at the OS level, they don't need Metal for that, so from an engineering point of view Metal is just an exercise in self harm by Apple. But then Apple isn't an engineering lead company, so no surprise.

It's not an exercise in self harm it's an exercise in self control - they will take 30% of sales through the Apple Store, control ALL the hardware, control all the software....

[Output]

It's not an exercise in self harm it's an exercise in self control - they will take 30% of sales through the Apple Store, control ALL the hardware, control all the software....

But if the sales drop off as a result, then it really would be an exercise in self-harm too.

As a bonus for them though, all of this obviously kills off the Hackintosh at the same time.

[3dcandy]

But if the sales drop off as a result, then it really would be an exercise in self-harm too.

As a bonus for them though, all of this obviously kills off the Hackintosh at the same time.

LTT already said that especially after they put several videos up about how they could save a fortune and get better performance

The devil in me would say they can't really hurt the extremely poor Mac sales now anyhoo