Qualcomm Quick Charge 5 can take you from 0-50 in 5 mins

[philehidiot]

I specifically said I use a slow wireless charger. The charging rate is about 0.5A. If heat is the potential issue, then I can be quite happy as I checked the battery temperature and it barely gets above ambient. It gets hotter when attached to the 2.4A port on my power bank (by some way).

If there's another issue, I'd happily listen but I specifically put together a slow wireless charger to limit the heat problem (I am so sad, that I measure the current going in live during charging and have also measured what is getting to the phone). I do know of someone who bought a high speed wireless charger and was using it in his car, whilst using the phone as a GPS system, with the screen brightness cranked up, and it was also playing music.....

He cooked his phone good.

As I also said, I think they are painting a rosy picture of the effect on battery longevity. I can not see how shoving 100W+ into a battery can be good for it, repeatedly and over the long term. I would be interested to see how much of that ends up as heat. Bearing in mind rapid heating is very destructive so it may be the temperature is regulated, but the effect of the rapid change in temperature is definitely a problem. Not just for the battery, but the surrounding electronics over the long term.

Unfortunately, the evidence I know of comes from the manufacturers who have a vested interest. If anyone knows of any real third party experiments on this, using loads of batteries and loads of charge cycles, I'd love to hear about it. Especially if it proves me wrong.

You can charge without using quick charge quite easily - use a dumb, slow charger. The quick charge stuff requires a compatible charger and the phone will tell you if quick charge is in use or not. You don't have to disable it.

[3dcandy]

I was generalising... but there is also anecdotal evidence that charging slowly doesn't help either as batteries are designed for certain parameters. Of course the evidence is out there that fast chargers will damage batteries and of course I cannot find any independent sources.

But people in general assume you will be putting lots of wattage into batteries all the time. That's simply not true. Like the above comment the battery will say what temp it is and if this rises the wattage will drop. Within reason and the batteries capacity it won't cause much damage. Every single cycle of recharging a battery reduces it's capacity. It is a balancing act.

Re: charging without fast charge yes you can use a dumb charger, but many newer phones won't charge properly with some chargers. I've seen loads give a message and they never charge. And of course the phones always come with a fast charger in the box. Samsung DO allow you to turn off quick charge but it's more for older chargers that won't charge properly if it's on than to slow the charging down though it does have that effect. I have some old chargers here and my S10 won't charge with them - it says it is but the charge never increases unless the phone is powered off and then takes hours. Just saying use a dumb slow charger is not correct - many work but some don't

[3dcandy]

PS Read the flippin article. It won't shove 100+ watts into a battery. That's the figure for 2 batteries in a 2s configuration...
The headline from Hexus is dubious at best - 2 cells in series in the right conditions can get up to 100 watts....

[FRISH]

More damage caused by charging under a pillow or charging often and not fully than quick charging

Aren't you meant to charge often and not fully for lithium batteries? I thought charging past 80% was also detrimental, although convenience usually takes a lot of priority.

[3dcandy]

Aren't you meant to charge often and not fully for lithium batteries? I thought charging past 80% was also detrimental, although convenience usually takes a lot of priority.

Not anymore - the charging circuits know how much the cell can take. 100% isn't 100% more like the maximum capacity that cell can take at that time. It does and will go down over time. Been a long while since phones had dumb batteries see post above about testing battery temp to understand how a battery knows a lot about itself

[philehidiot]

Actually technically I was right. I said "battery" which is a battery of cells. Two cells in series is a battery. The system it supports is dual cell batteries. So nnnneeeeeer

Incidentally, the 100W+ peak output will also require special cables for these dual cell batteries. A single cell charging using this system will likely be fine on standard cables. If you did use a dual cell system in a phone, you'd likely be wasting internal volume where you could have one big cell. So we're down to about 53W. QC say you'll likely get to around 45W peak charging power in the real world.

This, therefore is actually nothing more than we have already got on some high end phones (S20 ultra for a start).

I keep hearing this little and often stuff where you shouldn't let it go lower than X and higher than Y. The end result is you might as well just not bother with a portable appliance as you're tied to a wall. Me and 3dcandy can have a mini argument about this kind of thing but we'd both agree that a battery is a servicable part, you have to accept that and use it as per your needs.


The control chip on the battery (CELL!) will reduce peak voltage / capacity with charging cycles. Battery chemistry has, unfortuantely, not come along with other technologies and as a result, a lot of effort goes into fine tuning and getting even the smallest of advantages. If you can make a battery which has slightly better endurance or whatever, and you make a sale to a large phone manufacturer, that's a lot of moolah, so the chips are getting kinda complicated.

I think part of my dislike of the fast chargers is going back 20-30 years, where you could only fast charge a battery one in two or three cycles without damaging it. Part of it is that the C rate isn't specified, and that is critical. Also, a lithium battery needs a certain amount of increased temperature in order to rapid charge effectively, so they will be aiming to increase the temperature of the cell and keep it from getting too high. Frankly, if your C-rate is >1, you're reducing the longevity of your battery if it's lithium based.


EDIT - note that in lithium batteries, the protection circuit will normally prevent discharge rates >1C, so this graph is only a guide as we're charging rapidly and discharging slowly.
EDITEDIT - additionally, technically, >0.3C is rapid charging. C is the ratio of time to capacity. 1C = 1Ah@1A.


I'm thinking this charger, even without two cells in series, is looking at rates of around 5C.

[3dcandy]

^^^^ this...

Balancing act, serviceable part, convenience...

QC 5.0 is part of the USB PD standard so the cables as long as they are PD certified will work. Again, another set of protocols to ensure that the batteries are ok. S20 ultra uses USB PD not technically QC though it really means they kinda use QC 4+ but hey that's a whole different argument

What I'm trying to say - probably pretty badly is that these things are tested. You may get issues but you probably won't. There are worse things than quick charging a battery like overcharging it (ie plugging it in when you go to bed and leaving it charging all night) though the safeguards should stop it exploding they may not, and deffo not charging under pillow in drawer or somewhere where heat can build up.

In these days of sealed batteries you pay ya money and take your pick. A mobile phone should come with 2 years warranty except if it's a fruity made device and they will argue that they only have a 1 year warranty - yes I know of at least 10 people currently fighting through consumer laws to get Apple or the provider to stump up for faulty iphones after less than 2 years that now bricks are more useful than... if you need any reason to stay away from Apple it is this where they are quite happy to say they only warranty for 1 year especially if they can say anything about it being a battery issue - a bit off topic but still a real issue with this leaving the eu as we will lose a big chunk of this as we will probably go back to 1 year warranties but with 24 month or 36 month even contracts on mobiles...

[philehidiot]

In these days of sealed batteries you pay ya money and take your pick. A mobile phone should come with 2 years warranty except if it's a fruity made device and they will argue that they only have a 1 year warranty - yes I know of at least 10 people currently fighting through consumer laws to get Apple or the provider to stump up for faulty iphones after less than 2 years that now bricks are more useful than... if you need any reason to stay away from Apple it is this where they are quite happy to say they only warranty for 1 year especially if they can say anything about it being a battery issue - a bit off topic but still a real issue with this leaving the eu as we will lose a big chunk of this as we will probably go back to 1 year warranties but with 24 month or 36 month even contracts on mobiles...

I wrote a huge paragraph about Apple screwing people in my last post and then decided to delete it as it turned into a mini rant.

They are now chipping batteries to ensure that phones only work with Apple supplied and fitted batteries. They are arguing it is dangerous for anyone other than a trained Apple tech to change the battery in the phone. If it is dangerous then that is because they made it so. It does not have to be and can only be dangerous if by design. They are arguing that it's now cheap to get it done by them... oh how delightful. You stopped utterly ripping people off for a battery swap so now you're ensuring that they ALL must come through you to have it done. Just to ensure that profit from ripping people off doesn't go amiss. And it's convenient if you have an Apple store nearby. Otherwise it's anything but.

It's shocking how Apple treat its customers. I had a simple problem and, despite having Apple Care, they quite literally ignored me. I went to the shop with the faulty part and the guy just turned away from me and went to talk to someone else who looked like they were interested in buying. I emailed them and had no response.

Leaving the EU shouldn't make any difference as we never took on their consumer law (the 2 year warranty stuff, etc) as the SOGA was classed as providing superior protection. Now, under the CRA, we have even better protection and Apple has no legal leg to stand on, EU or no EU. The problem is that people like Apple will ignore it anyway, EU leglistation or UK leglislation. They will trample on the little guy and then make it so hard to get them to uphold your rights under the law that you eventually give up if you can't afford the time and money to take them to court.

Myself, I'd love to see the UK tell Apple to obey the law or get out. But, I'm an evil person.

[3dcandy]

I wrote a huge paragraph about Apple screwing people in my last post and then decided to delete it as it turned into a mini rant.

They are now chipping batteries to ensure that phones only work with Apple supplied and fitted batteries. They are arguing it is dangerous for anyone other than a trained Apple tech to change the battery in the phone. If it is dangerous then that is because they made it so. It does not have to be and can only be dangerous if by design. They are arguing that it's now cheap to get it done by them... oh how delightful. You stopped utterly ripping people off for a battery swap so now you're ensuring that they ALL must come through you to have it done. Just to ensure that profit from ripping people off doesn't go amiss. And it's convenient if you have an Apple store nearby. Otherwise it's anything but.

It's shocking how Apple treat its customers. I had a simple problem and, despite having Apple Care, they quite literally ignored me. I went to the shop with the faulty part and the guy just turned away from me and went to talk to someone else who looked like they were interested in buying. I emailed them and had no response.

Leaving the EU shouldn't make any difference as we never took on their consumer law (the 2 year warranty stuff, etc) as the SOGA was classed as providing superior protection. Now, under the CRA, we have even better protection and Apple has no legal leg to stand on, EU or no EU. The problem is that people like Apple will ignore it anyway, EU leglistation or UK leglislation. They will trample on the little guy and then make it so hard to get them to uphold your rights under the law that you eventually give up if you can't afford the time and money to take them to court.

Myself, I'd love to see the UK tell Apple to obey the law or get out. But, I'm an evil person.

Apple are by far the worst company I have ever dealt with. Feel they are above the law and take their customers for mugs 100% of the time... yet people still buy them and I really can't see why

[DanceswithUnix]

They are now chipping batteries to ensure that phones only work with Apple supplied and fitted batteries. They are arguing it is dangerous for anyone other than a trained Apple tech to change the battery in the phone.

Nokia came to much the same conclusion decades ago when they were king of the mobile phone market after some counterfeit batteries exploded on customers. If they detected a cheap knock-off battery they switched to slow charging, so the customer still had a working phone, just not a fast charging one. So this is nothing new.

[philehidiot]

Nokia came to much the same conclusion decades ago when they were king of the mobile phone market after some counterfeit batteries exploded on customers. If they detected a cheap knock-off battery they switched to slow charging, so the customer still had a working phone, just not a fast charging one. So this is nothing new.

It may not be new, but that doesn't make it right. And all they have to do is to say "we strongly advise any battery replacements are performed by Apple and we will not warranty any work performed by a third party, nor attest to its safety". Job done.

I bought it, it is my right to do what I want with it. It is not their right to ban me from using other third party materials. Additionally, batteries have come a long way and the latest big battery issue was.... Samsung.

And, actually, I think Nokia's approach is fine. They set up their quick charging stuff to work safely with a certain spec of battery. As long as it was made clear to the customer, I don't have a problem. I do have a problem with a company that bricks devices if they have the wrong screen replacement, or bricks them if they have a battery they don't like.

It's like a car manufacturer saying they refuse to let you fit any other brand of brake pad. No. Just, no. It is MY responsibility to ensure I fit the kit suited to the purpose and safe for use in the application. If I screw it up, I am liable.

On top of that, cheap knock off stuff is used as an example all the time. Often, the third party stuff is perfectly safe and often to a higher spec than the OEM stuff. Sometimes it's the same stuff from the same factory without the name. There is a huge difference between unsafe parts and decent third party parts and OEMs love to conflate the two. They are not equal.

[DanceswithUnix]

As long as it was made clear to the customer, I don't have a problem.

Sadly I don't think Nokia ever made that clear to the customer, because the customer didn't want to hear that their Nokia branded replacement battery was actually a cheap fake. But yeah, it did seem a good and pragmatic approach.

Stuff like fingerprint sensors is more tricky. You can't really allow phone payments with a broken trust chain, there are probably other problems I'm too lazy to bother thinking of.

But the problem with batteries is how dramatic the failure mode is, and the average customer will blame Apple at that point. If it just stopped working then that wouldn't be so bad, but phones are often charged unattended so turning them into a fireball isn't good.

I've had a spate of battery replacements recently on family phones and tablets. They all work OK, but I don't think any of them are lasting as well as the original battery despite some of them claiming to be better than original. Yeah, maybe for the first two charges.

[3dcandy]

Sadly I don't think Nokia ever made that clear to the customer, because the customer didn't want to hear that their Nokia branded replacement battery was actually a cheap fake. But yeah, it did seem a good and pragmatic approach.

Stuff like fingerprint sensors is more tricky. You can't really allow phone payments with a broken trust chain, there are probably other problems I'm too lazy to bother thinking of.

But the problem with batteries is how dramatic the failure mode is, and the average customer will blame Apple at that point. If it just stopped working then that wouldn't be so bad, but phones are often charged unattended so turning them into a fireball isn't good.

I've had a spate of battery replacements recently on family phones and tablets. They all work OK, but I don't think any of them are lasting as well as the original battery despite some of them claiming to be better than original. Yeah, maybe for the first two charges.

A cheap cell is ahem a cheap cell. But quite often they just don't have the same safeguards in them as the original cell. This is what QC and the other fast charging standards aim to improve. Rather like Apples approach a replacement cell that doesn't follow the specs won't be charged or will only be charged at a slower speed or at "normal" trickle speeds

It might not seem like it but it IS a step forward just done probably in an underhand way. Again as an aside Samsung haven't really gone past QC 3.0 until recently because they kept batteries that were only really useful under that standard

[DanceswithUnix]

A cheap cell is ahem a cheap cell.

Sadly I think in one case the cell was original, to the point it was manufactured 2 years ago same as the phone. I think sitting on a shelf for 2 years just hadn't done it any good. Still better than the third party super duper upgrade battery that was really good for a couple of months and then dropped off. German kwality for you