AMD unleashes Zen 3 and reckons it's faster for gaming than Core i9

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Looking at the launch pricing for the 3600 / 3600X they were $199/$249 respectively (IIRC they were £199/£239 in the UK at launch pricing), the launch pricing for the 5600X we know is $299 (£289) the 5600 non x part is as yet an unknown. The 2600 / 2600X launch pricing was $199/$229.

It's interesting the non x part remained the same between the 2600 and the 3600, whether that remains the same for an unannounced 5600 remains to be seen, I have my doubts. Meanwhile the 3600X was 8.7% more expensive than the 2600X at launch pricing, the 5600X is 20% more expensive than the 3600X at launch pricing, which is a pretty large disparity. If the same follows for a 5600, it should be priced about $239 (a 20% increase).

Looking at just Amazon prices though, the 2600 was sold new between £110-£174, the 2600X between £115-£235, the 3600 between £153-£199, the 3600X between £186-£240. So while I understand the concern over the pricing increases, especially the RRP launch price listings, I think people will be far more savvy to wait for the prices to be adjusted by the market. What's the saying? Something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it? I definitely think that will be true for the 6C Zen3 CPU. I also agree that it looks like AMD is trying to push the pricing upwards for the 6C parts, I think that 20% is too much (although it does tie in nicely with an almost 20% IPC increase ), however if that is the case, then it should make more sense to stick with the 3600X if owned unless you really needed that ~20% increase in performance. Price / performance wise it would make more sense.

That is the problem. The Ryzen 9 SKUs have relatively small price increases,but its the lower end which seems to have the biggest percentage. Also if you look at the Ryzen 5 5600X,its a 65W TDP model like the Ryzen 5 2600/3600 and comes with the same el-cheapo Wraith Stealth cooler which also comes on the Ryzen 3 3200G which is under £100.We saw Intel do the same with its stock coolers,they quietly made the worse and worse. They first ditched the copper cores,than made the heatsink thinner and thinner. It makes me wonder whether they have quietly rebadged what was originally the Ryzen 5 5600 and added an X on the end. Even the 65W TDP Ryzen 7 3700X was really the Ryzen 7 2700 successor,but at least they bundled the Wraith Prism RGB cooler. Now the Ryzen 5 5600X is only priced 10% lower than the Ryzen 7 3700X,has 2 less cores,and a three tier worse CPU cooler.

Also the XT launch makes more sense now - it pushed up top level Zen2 pricing,so the pricing increases for the Zen3,don't look relatively bad.

[DanceswithUnix]

Also if you look at the Ryzen 5 5600X,its a 65W TDP model like the Ryzen 5 2600/3600 and comes with the same el-cheapo Wraith Stealth cooler which also comes on the Ryzen 3 3200G which is under £100.

So what's changed? My 2200G came with the same cooler as my 3600. The outlier is the 3700X with an upmarket cooler for its 65W TDP.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

So what's changed? My 2200G came with the same cooler as my 3600. The outlier is the 3700X with an upmarket cooler for its 65W TDP.

What's changed is the Ryzen 5 5600X is the first X model since Zen was launched,to have a Wraith Stealth,and the first Zen CPU over $200 to have a Wraith Stealth. Wraith Stealth is only used on entry level SKUs. Premium 65W TDP models and above came with better coolers. There are 5 coolers AMD does - the Wraith Stealth,Wraith Spire,Wraith Spire RGB,Wraith Prism RGB and Wraith Max RGB. The X models at a minimum have the Wraith Spire/Wraith Spire RGB. The Ryzen 7 1700/2700 came with the Wraith Spire/Wraith Spire RGB and had a 65W TDP. The Ryzen 7 3700X comes with the Wraith Prism RGB. The Ryzen 5 3400G comes with the Wraith Spire. The Ryzen 5 2600X/3600X came with the RGB version of the Wraith Spire.

People were wondering why the Zen2 XT series came out - they made little sense. Not only have AMD tried to reset Zen2 pricing to make Zen3 look less of a price bump,but they now have introduced a 3 tier system. So if there is a non-X,it will be even worse silicon than before. The non-X and X now split the tier the original non-X inhabited. The XT now replaces the X as the premium model of that tier. The Ryzen 9 5900XT/5950XT were leaked by AMD already.

So with the Ryzen 5 5600X its 10% lower launch RRP than a Ryzen 7 3700X,2 less cores and a 3 tier lower CPU cooler. There will probably be a 95W TDP Ryzen 5 5600XT coming out with a better cooler next year,which is the true successor to the Ryzen 5 3600X. Also in before,the Ryzen 5 5600X(5600) destroys the Ryzen 5 3600X,the Ryzen 5 3600 destroyed the Ryzen 5 2600X too.

They have just rebranded the Ryzen 5 3600 successor as a Ryzen 5 5600X. 65W TDP and Wraith Spire cooler. So expect the Ryzen 5 5600XT to come with a Wraith Spire RGB,and higher TDP. The real price rise isn't $250 to $300,its more like $200 to $300. The Ryzen 7 3700X should have been called the Ryzen 7 3700. It was another $30 over the Ryzen 7 2700 RRP,but AMD added a much better cooler into the bargain,etc.

Another issue here is temperature. Zen2 boost was also affected not only by package power,but package temperature. Zen3 is the same node,with higher clockspeeds. Its remarkably penny pinching of AMD not to even offer the Wraith Spire on a $300 CPU now. Also my own experience of the Wraith Stealth,is that it is average. The Wraith Spire not only runs cooler, and the boost is generally more consistent on it.

This is exactly what Intel started to do,and people criticised them for it. They quietly made the coolers worse and worse,and started playing around with the tiers. In fact even with the Wraith Spire,the newer ones are worse built. They removed the copper core,and used a noiser higher RPM fan to compensate.

The same what Nvidia did after Kepler with GPUs(more tiers). Its the typical play when tech companies start doubling down on margins.

[lumireleon]

Just womndering what happened to 7nm EUV and 5nm. Next gen 6000 series DDR5 and PCIE5 will come with 5nm? And I fear the price of new spec RAM and availability will keep the fire going on the 5000 series cpus

[Zhaoman]

Just womndering what happened to 7nm EUV and 5nm. Next gen 6000 series DDR5 and PCIE5 will come with 5nm? And I fear the price of new spec RAM and availability will keep the fire going on the 5000 series cpus

It certainly will if Intel don't come with anything to challenge. In a two player market I always feel there comes a price inflection when the challenger catches up and that's when value for money reaches a local peak. Because after that the challenger becomes the new king and prices go up while value stays roughly the same until they can be challenged again. That point was probably somewhere around the Ryzen 2000 to 3000 series when Intel dropped prices to compete. Justifying 20% price increase for 20% performance increase shows that for the 5000 series. So overall price/performance value has really stayed around the same ever since the 2000 series imo.

[kompukare]

Just womndering what happened to 7nm EUV and 5nm. Next gen 6000 series DDR5 and PCIE5 will come with 5nm? And I fear the price of new spec RAM and availability will keep the fire going on the 5000 series cpus

It certainly will if Intel don't come with anything to challenge. In a two player market I always feel there comes a price inflection when the challenger catches up and that's when value for money reaches a local peak. Because after that the challenger becomes the new king and prices go up while value stays roughly the same until they can be challenged again. That point was probably somewhere around the Ryzen 2000 to 3000 series when Intel dropped prices to compete. Justifying 20% price increase for 20% performance increase shows that for the 5000 series. So overall price/performance value has really stayed around the same ever since the 2000 series imo.

I read lumireleon fear more to do with DDR5 prices.
And as I've banged on many times when DDR5 gets mentioned, I would not expect DDR5 to be worthwhile in terms of perf/price until volume really comes into play around the end of 2022 or even later.
So if Zen4 only comes out with DDR5, AMD might price themselves out of the market but not (just) due their own margins but because Samsung / Hynix / Micron won't want to sell DDR5 too cheaply.
This might mean that AMD continue the IO die approach for Zen4 even if by they have enough volume to afford multiple dies, simply so they can offer a AM4+ version for a cheaper platform than the full AM5 DDR5 platform. Confusing for consumers but a cheaper sticker price. Would prefer if there were mobo's with both DDR4 and DDR5 but that's unlikely.

[DanceswithUnix]

What's changed is the Ryzen 5 5600X is the first X model since Zen was launched,to have a Wraith Stealth,and the first Zen CPU over $200 to have a Wraith Stealth.

I get that on paper it's a reduction in value, and perhaps I should ebay the AMD coolers I have kicking around to realise some of that value but honestly the box coolers are a real budget thing and I generally don't use them (though the 3700X cooler is in use on a 3600 here).

I'm surprised you aren't more offended by the 5800X not coming with any cooler at all.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I get that on paper it's a reduction in value, and perhaps I should ebay the AMD coolers I have kicking around to realise some of that value but honestly the box coolers are a real budget thing and I generally don't use them (though the 3700X cooler is in use on a 3600 here).

I'm surprised you aren't more offended by the 5800X not coming with any cooler at all.

Its not really offense,but people are giving AMD yet another pass,whilst mocking Intel for doing it. I don't like how Intel is attacked for things AMD is now doing but AMD doing it is fine. People are settling into the same bad habits they did last time AMD was on top,ie,AMD does crap things Intel was doing,but AMD is the underdog so gets a pass.

So far its been AMD artificially locking out consumer motherboards from PCI-E 4.0 this year,then trying to lockout recent B450 buyers from Zen3,after delaying B550 for a year,and people were defending the latter too. In the end AMD rowed back on the latter due to the negativity, and now this. Its why I think RDNA2 might not be as cheap as people think it will be if AMD is competitive.

I am not happy about AMD ditching the stock coolers for the other CPUs too,but the pricing is so high,it puts them in high end enthusiast range. The Ryzen 5 is a mainstream range,where most people use stock coolers. But then again I know people who used Ryzen 7 and 9 CPUs with the stock coolers,because they don't overclock and run RAM at 3200MHZ,ie,AMD official spec. Most people I know don't overclock. I infact am one of them!

Making the stock cooler worse on a $300 part,forcing you to probably spend another $30~$40 on a better cooler,is another stealth price increase. This is a bigger percentage increase than say a $500 part. This is what Intel basically did. AMD marketing used its "better stock coolers" as an advertising feature over Intel. Many review sites also took this onboard.

HUB for example factors in cooler costs,into platform costs. Even DF has mentioned how AMD has better than Intel coolers,and Intel needs that cost added on.

In fact for most of the Ryzen 3 and Ryzen 5 builds me and mates have done,the stock coolers are used due to cost. In fact I used the stock cooler on my system for the last two years until last month.

You have to appreciate the AMD stock coolers are generally much better than what Intel supplies,and AMD marketing pushed their stock coolers as a competitive advantage over Intel. Now they are flip-flopping because they are "ahead".

Its why as much as there is schadenfreude due to Intel's woes,its actually not a good thing for us consumers either.

[Iota]

I actually can't recall when I last used a stock cooler. No, wait, for an i5 750 system I built for my mum years ago in 2010? While I appreciate there is some value in having a stock cooler for budget considerations, I've always found them to perform fairly poorly compared to an aftermarket solution. I do think including them in the lower end range is a good idea though - again, it's a value proposition (even if the cooler isn't brilliant and just does the job).

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I actually can't recall when I last used a stock cooler. No, wait, for an i5 750 system I built for my mum years ago in 2010? While I appreciate there is some value in having a stock cooler for budget considerations, I've always found them to perform fairly poorly compared to an aftermarket solution. I do think including them in the lower end range is a good idea though - again, it's a value proposition (even if the cooler isn't brilliant and just does the job).

AMD marketing advertised how much better their stock coolers were,and many review sites tested them. So what happened many Intel and AMD comparisons,would be with AMD using its stock cooler and Intel using an aftermarket one. HUB and DF were amongst many websites pointing out Intel might have been faster,but AMD had a decent stock cooler,etc so AMD won out.

In fact,the vast majority of Ryzen builds me and others have done,are generally Ryzen 3 and Ryzen 5 parts. Remember this is an enthusiast forum - the reality is most builds tend to use stock coolers,even many prebuilt systems and prebuilt upgrade bundles sold by many retailers.

In fact I used a stock cooler for my Ryzen 5 system for two years. It was actually better as a lower profile cooler than many ones under £30.

But the thing is again,so many were criticising Intel for its rubbish stock coolers,and that AMD was including very good stock coolers(including reviews). Now AMD isn't including them,or reducing the quality,its back to its OK.

Edit!!

WRT to performance,the Wraith Max is equal to a Hyper 212 Evo which is £30. The Wraith Spire is slightly worse than a £20 Deepcool gammaxx 200t(2C to 3C worse) under a very heavy load.

The Stealth isn't so good - I found mine was 10C to 20C worse off than the Wraith Spire.

So including the Stealth instead of the Spire on a $300 part is a very poor move. Its even worse when the $330 Ryzen 7 3700X had the Prism which is even better.







Even in the case of the Hyper 212 EVO,the Spire is hotter,but is 8db less noisier.

Downgrading the Ryzen 5 X part from a Spire to a Stealth is huge.

[lumireleon]

Currently intel's main tag line after the "5 Ghz 24-7 On Regular Nitrogen" went under is ... competition still has no AVX-512 support.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Currently intel's main tag line after the "5 Ghz 24-7 On Regular Nitrogen" went under is ... competition still has no AVX-512 support.

Intel and its AVX!

But looking at the Ryzen 5 5600X it boosts to 4.6GHZ,but its base clockspeed is actually slightly lower than the Ryzen 5 3600X.

It makes me wonder,whether the Ryzen 5 5600X will boost for long to 4.6GHZ especially with a Wraith Stealth. Let's see the review spread,ie,those using aftermarket coolers and those using the stock coolers.

[DanceswithUnix]

Even in the case of the Hyper 212 EVO,the Spire is hotter,but is 8db less noisier.

So if you spun it faster to get the same temperature, it would be about as noisy. That isn't too surprising, I suspect the measured level from my aftermarket cooler probably hasn't changed, but it whines less and doesn't seem to hunt up and down as fast. More to the point, compile times improved, and that was a cheap Arctic Freezer 34 eSports job.

But overall this is more about price than cooler performance, the cooler is just part of the deal. Let's face it, if AMD offered the 5800X for £100 with no cooler we would all be ecstatic despite the cooler being 100% worse by not existing. They may be doing themselves a disservice when it comes to review time bundling a cooler that will hold the part back.

I'm impressed that you managed to use the box cooler in your ITX build. My daughter's ITX box is using a Stealth as it happens to fit, but those fan shrouds are just so damned tall.

[Jonj1611]

sure, providing the price is reasonable.. It is worrying the potential price side of things. I wonder if it's the problem of PC being seen as more niche now. It's no longer a growth market when you're trying to get everyone to buy-in. Has the market evolved into enthusiast?

Wouldn't be too sure about that - https://hexus.net/business/news/syst...-year-records/

[Iota]

It makes me wonder,whether the Ryzen 5 5600X will boost for long to 4.6GHZ especially with a Wraith Stealth. Let's see the review spread,ie,those using aftermarket coolers and those using the stock coolers.

Wouldn't it make much more sense for AMD to either use a cooler that works well and lowers temps / noise for review purposes, or completely do away with bundling coolers in exchange for either a lower price point or more profit? It will be interesting to see which stock cooler AMD actually provides review sites (considering they've changed which ones are going to be bundled).

Wouldn't be too sure about that - https://hexus.net/business/news/syst...-year-records/

That is going to be slightly different to the "normal" due to the pandemic and people working from home, altering overall sales figures.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

So if you spun it faster to get the same temperature, it would be about as noisy. That isn't too surprising, I suspect the measured level from my aftermarket cooler probably hasn't changed, but it whines less and doesn't seem to hunt up and down as fast. More to the point, compile times improved, and that was a cheap Arctic Freezer 34 eSports job.

But overall this is more about price than cooler performance, the cooler is just part of the deal. Let's face it, if AMD offered the 5800X for £100 with no cooler we would all be ecstatic despite the cooler being 100% worse by not existing. They may be doing themselves a disservice when it comes to review time bundling a cooler that will hold the part back.

I'm impressed that you managed to use the box cooler in your ITX build. My daughter's ITX box is using a Stealth as it happens to fit, but those fan shrouds are just so damned tall.

I was using the Wraith Spire,but the original copper core model,not the later one where they made the heatsink full aluminium,and used a higher speed fan to compensate. Also you can remove the fan shrouds relatively easily. But yes it is about price,and also what they were bundling OK. It just seems a price rise,plus a worse cooler. If they had at least included the Wraith Prism,then at least it would partially offset the price increase of the Ryzen 5 5600X.

It will be interesting to see how the Wraith Stealth will do with the Ryzen 5 5600X. The Ryzen 5 3600 did boost a bit lower with it.

Wouldn't it make much more sense for AMD to either use a cooler that works well and lowers temps / noise for review purposes, or completely do away with bundling coolers in exchange for either a lower price point or more profit? It will be interesting to see which stock cooler AMD actually provides review sites (considering they've changed which ones are going to be bundled).

I will be interested to see how this all works out.

BTW,I saw a rumour somewhere the Ryzen 5 5600 will be out early next year for $220.But the source was not one I have seen before.