Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 17 to 22 of 22

Thread: Nochex open letter disses eBay and bans

  1. #17
    Will work for beer... nichomach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Preston, Lancs
    Posts
    6,136
    Thanks
    543
    Thanked
    138 times in 99 posts
    • nichomach's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3
      • CPU:
      • AMD Phenom II X6 1055T 95W
      • Memory:
      • 16GB DR3
      • Storage:
      • 1x250GB Maxtor SATAII, 1x 400GB Hitachi SATAII
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Zotac GTX 1060 3GB
      • PSU:
      • Coolermaster 500W
      • Case:
      • Coolermaster Elite 430
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 20" TFT
      • Internet:
      • Virgin Media Cable
    OK, last point first; can you tell the difference between a company with 95% market share and one with 5%? Well, that's the difference between a company that has a monopoly and one that doesn't.

    IE is now an inseparable part of Windows because that's what MS decided to make it, and that had nothing to do with functionality. ActiveX has nothing to do with processing HTML; it's an engine for processing executable code, like the Java virtual machine. That's a minor point, however - yes it's impossible to get rid of IE, but that's not because IE does anything for Windows that couldn't have been done another way, and perhaps better; it's because MS wanted to make the argument in court that IE was an integral part of Windows, and therefore could not be stripped out without breaking Windows. Same with Media Player, although the EC have quite rightly stuck two fingers up at that.

    Bundling and tying ARE anticompetitive when you're a monopoly player; it denies other companies equal access to the market. When you plug in your shiny new Dell, you have IE installed which takes you to MSN, where you can find stuff to play in Windows Media format on Windows Media Player...and you don't think that freezes competitor products out from the start? Sure, you can download alternatives, but you are less likely to by a long way, and you can't get rid of the stuff that MS decided to integrate. That's anticompetitive.

    Look at it this way; say you don't like IE and WMP. You think they are insecure, so you want to use alternatives. You download Firefox, and maybe start using Realplayer or something. Now you don't have to worry about IE and WMP security anymore, right? Wrong, because purely to secure a commercial advantage MS have decreed that both must be so tightly woven into Windows that you'll still have the same vulns and still have to download the same patches even though you never want to use the damned applications.
    Last edited by nichomach; 13-07-2006 at 02:03 PM.

  2. #18
    Theoretical Element Spud1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    7,043
    Thanks
    259
    Thanked
    264 times in 208 posts
    • Spud1's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Mac Pro
      • CPU:
      • 2x 2.8ghz Quad Core Xeons (octo-core)
      • Memory:
      • 4gb DDR2 FB-Dimm
      • Storage:
      • 1x1TB, 1x320gb, 2x500gb, 1x250gb, 120GB SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Nvidia Geforce 560Ti
      • PSU:
      • Mac pro PSU
      • Case:
      • Mac Pro Case
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 8
      • Monitor(s):
      • 1x22" LG 3D TFT 1x 19" ViewSonic
      • Internet:
      • 80mb BT Infinity
    Ok we are going to have to agree to disagree here I think

    Apple have a monopoly on running OS's on their hardware don't they? Using the above logic, if you buy a mac you get OSX on it. Sure you can run linux on it if you want, but almost everyone will stick with OSX, yes? [NB talking about PPC based macs here, x86 is a different kettle of fish]

    Just because they are smaller they are exempt? hmm ok I can accept that if you view apple as being in the same market as windows that this could be true, although surely anti-competitive practices don't rely on how big your company is.

    With respect to the activeX thing - I wasn't talking about activeX in general, I was specifically talking about a component of it that requires IE to be installed, and is used extensivly in many 3rd party applications (I have used it myself recently). I don't think that Microsoft deliberately integrated IE in windows purely to stop competitors - it simply makes logical sense. If you have some code that can deal with multiple things, why not re-use it elsewhere in the system? It may not be the best thing for the job, but if it works, and keeps development costs down then of course they will do it.

    It's a fair point about when you buy, say a dell and what you explained happens, but that doesnt mean microsoft should stop bundling WMP and MSN with windows, just that it shouldnt be automatically set up to do such things..

    But like I say we will have to agree to disagree here

  3. #19
    Xcelsion... In Disguise. Xaneden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,699
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    0 times in 0 posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    Bundling and tying ARE anticompetitive when you're a monopoly player; it denies other companies equal access to the market. When you plug in your shiny new Dell, you have IE installed which takes you to MSN, where you can find stuff to play in Windows Media format on Windows Media Player...and you don't think that freezes competitor products out from the start? Sure, you can download alternatives, but you are less likely to by a long way, and you can't get rid of the stuff that MS decided to integrate. That's anticompetitive.
    Very true, but in fairness, is Johnny No-Experience going to appreciate that simple streamlined start, or having to venture out and find software he doesn't have a clue how to use, or indeed, how to get hold of? We have to remember that Microsoft is after all selling a product, and they can't keep giving up their real-estate to give other companies the chance of invading their territory. Although as a primarily enthusiasts forum, most of us know what we like to use and how to do it, the majority of users do not, and rely on what's easily available to them; having such features/programs available from the start is useful to them.

    Personally, I think with Vista's psuedo-compartmentalisation of what were previously 'key' components of windows, the option to install WMP etc during installation (and not with such tools as nLite) would appease many parties. I for one, as a user of an open source media player, would appreciate the ability to remove Windows Media Player from the start in a simple fashion, thus allowing me to install WMP Alternative or similar software. In doing this, the more experienced users with their own preferences can pick and choose as they wish, whilst new computer users and inexperienced users can have the features they want available from the start.
    New Sig on the Way...

  4. #20
    Lovely chap dangel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    8,385
    Thanks
    407
    Thanked
    449 times in 331 posts
    • dangel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • See My Sig
      • CPU:
      • See My Sig
      • Memory:
      • See My Sig
      • Storage:
      • See My Sig
      • Graphics card(s):
      • See My Sig
      • PSU:
      • See My Sig
      • Case:
      • See My Sig
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • See My Sig
      • Internet:
      • 60mbit Sky LLU
    Quote Originally Posted by nichomach
    IE is now an inseparable part of Windows because that's what MS decided to make it, and that had nothing to do with functionality. ActiveX has nothing to do with processing HTML; it's an engine for processing executable code, like the Java virtual machine.
    Not entirely true - it's used throughout explorer itself (the shell) for example and in itself is embeddable which can be quite useful to us poor devs. The problem is, MS want to leverage _functionality_ that a embedded browser provides (which is understandable) and people expect a browser of some sort to be there when they install the OS. I agree that choice is a good thing but I do wonder whether the end-user would of better been served by offering choices at the purchase point - i.e. someone like Dell - where it would of made more of a difference. Interestingly, you can strip IE from windows quite easily, it's just that then certain things stop working - i've got a stripped out install of XP that sits on 50mb post boot; it's pretty dull looking but it (mostly) works. Can't use windows update tho... and surfing the web to download another browser is er.. impossible

    ActiveX and Java live in different worlds - an activeX control is just a COM component with an IDispatch interface (I assumed you'd meant this in the context of talking about IE) - it's native code. Java isn't (AFAIK) and is far more analogous to .NET in that no executable code exists, rather it's converted to executable code in real time by the virtual machine.
    System 001: Maximus VII Formula, 4790k i7, RTX 2080ti FE (incoming), 16GIG Corsair Vengence DDR3 RAM CL9, Corsair HX1000, ROG SWIFT PG278Q , SSDs, Antec 1200 case, All watercooled. [main]
    System 002: A8 3850 APU, ASUS uATX FM1A75 MB, 4GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3, Corsair psu, OCZ Agility 3, 1TB F3, Dell 2001FP 20" LCD, £7's worth of 5.1 speakers (they rock) Windows 7 x64[wife/server]
    System 003: AsRock MB, APU, 8 GIG Corsair, Silverstone HTPC case, stock cooler, GT220 1gbDDR3, WD Green 3TB, Kingston 40gb SSD, MCE Remote, Panasonic 50" LCD (87BDX) via HDMI Windows 8.1.1 (32) [media centre]
    System 004: Asus UL50AT Intel Core 2 Duo,4GB, Intel Gen 2 80GB SSD, Win 8.1.1 x64 [no justification]
    System 005: HP Proliant N40L Microserver, 4x2TB drives, fan mod, Pico PSU mod, Win7 x86 [file server]
    System 006: Dell Optiplex 9010, i7, 8gb, 128gb Samsung 830 x 2 (boot and VM drive), 1TB WD HDD, ATI something, Windows 8.1.1 x64 RTM [work]


  5. #21
    Lovely chap dangel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    8,385
    Thanks
    407
    Thanked
    449 times in 331 posts
    • dangel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • See My Sig
      • CPU:
      • See My Sig
      • Memory:
      • See My Sig
      • Storage:
      • See My Sig
      • Graphics card(s):
      • See My Sig
      • PSU:
      • See My Sig
      • Case:
      • See My Sig
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • See My Sig
      • Internet:
      • 60mbit Sky LLU
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaneden
    Personally, I think with Vista's psuedo-compartmentalisation of what were previously 'key' components of windows, the option to install WMP etc during installation (and not with such tools as nLite) would appease many parties. I for one, as a user of an open source media player, would appreciate the ability to remove Windows Media Player from the start in a simple fashion, thus allowing me to install WMP Alternative or similar software. In doing this, the more experienced users with their own preferences can pick and choose as they wish, whilst new computer users and inexperienced users can have the features they want available from the start.
    I like this approach - but I would caution that 99% of people would just install everything regardless and live with it (unless it's really bad or there's enough press [rare] about the alternatives) particularly with IE7 shaping up to be more than good enough compared to firefox.. I want to hate IE7 but it's pretty good really - and i'm an Opera user..
    System 001: Maximus VII Formula, 4790k i7, RTX 2080ti FE (incoming), 16GIG Corsair Vengence DDR3 RAM CL9, Corsair HX1000, ROG SWIFT PG278Q , SSDs, Antec 1200 case, All watercooled. [main]
    System 002: A8 3850 APU, ASUS uATX FM1A75 MB, 4GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3, Corsair psu, OCZ Agility 3, 1TB F3, Dell 2001FP 20" LCD, £7's worth of 5.1 speakers (they rock) Windows 7 x64[wife/server]
    System 003: AsRock MB, APU, 8 GIG Corsair, Silverstone HTPC case, stock cooler, GT220 1gbDDR3, WD Green 3TB, Kingston 40gb SSD, MCE Remote, Panasonic 50" LCD (87BDX) via HDMI Windows 8.1.1 (32) [media centre]
    System 004: Asus UL50AT Intel Core 2 Duo,4GB, Intel Gen 2 80GB SSD, Win 8.1.1 x64 [no justification]
    System 005: HP Proliant N40L Microserver, 4x2TB drives, fan mod, Pico PSU mod, Win7 x86 [file server]
    System 006: Dell Optiplex 9010, i7, 8gb, 128gb Samsung 830 x 2 (boot and VM drive), 1TB WD HDD, ATI something, Windows 8.1.1 x64 RTM [work]


  6. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    2,536
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked
    4 times in 3 posts

    And now, eBay is accepting Nochex again!

    All a bit odd, to me, but that's the story (as nichomach already pointed out earlier in the day - and I missed!).

    Check it out.
    Last edited by Bob Crabtree; 14-07-2006 at 01:02 AM.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •