Read more.Quote:
Find out if it can master the Radeon RX 480.
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Read more.Quote:
Find out if it can master the Radeon RX 480.
Am seriously getting an RX480
Nice review, would like to see Vulkan scores for Doom, as that is what most of the people will actually use.
Other than that, expected performance level.
Sort of what I expected but unless it can get close to to the £250 a Sapphire 480 Nitro retails for I'm going to keep my preorder on that as I expect it'll be a better long term purchase (DX12/Vulkan).
nVidia have missed an opportunity (or AMD managed to counter at the last minute).
To ask $100 more than a 480 it needs to be beating it, not trailing in DX12/vulkan benchmarks.
Annoying, quite wanted to pick one of these up.
edit: though just as I go to order the 480 I see the UK 1060 price is actually similar to the 480... interesting!
the tech group Kalniel, DanceWithUnix, how comes the Rx480 has 2030 processors yet it seriously lags behind a 1200 Cuda core GTX1060? should it be more processors = more performance?
Whats funny is TPU managed to review one of the high end MSI GTX1060 cards now,yet not a single AIB RX480 card review yet?? Seriously,AMD, if you had AIB RX480 reviews out now....what is AMD PR doing?? Honestly,yes the RX480 launch was very successful,but really it seems they are resting on their laurels and have missed a massive chance to get those AIB cards reviewed...
AMD's 'cores' are vastly different to Nvidia's 'cores'. Simple as that really, and that's pretty much the way it's always been.
Hexus, any reason for no 3dmark DX12 test numbers being run?
Would be interesting to compare the 1060 and RX480 under that test to see which might be the better long term bet.
The 3DMark test actually does not use many DX12 features:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10486/...tx12-benchmark
Second Edit!!Quote:
Under the hood, the engine only makes use of FL 11_0 features, which means it can run on video cards as far back as GeForce GTX 680 and Radeon HD 7970.
Hexus really needs to test the cards under Vulkan too - it leads to big performance gains for AMD cards.Quote:
We've tested Doom using OpenGL 4.5 (4.3 for AMD cards). Set to ultra and looking just lovely, performance is split into three broad camps. You have the older GPUs at the bottom, whose frame rate is just enough at 1080p. A collection of modern mainstream GPUs line the middle, and the very best fight it for bragging rights.
£329 for the asus strix is way to much,might as well get a 1070!
Is that tomb raider benchmark done using dx12? I would have thought the rx480 would have a lead over this card.
Pascal supports async compute on software level which lags behind AMD who has hardware level support for it, all titles that use async compute run faster on AMD cards (Hitman, AOTS, Doom (will get that support later on)), and more titles will support it in the near future especially EA titles.
Async compute can gain massive performance and you can see what the cheap mid-range RX 480 can do when games have support for it.
for me, Nvidia is a pass for this year, they screwed up by not putting hardware support for async compute, they had their chance but they didnt think it will be that big thing in games, so lets hope Vega will be a great performer as Polaris looks very promising so far.
To greatly simplify it: not all cores are created equal. Nvidia and AMD's underlying core architecture are NOT exactly the same - they are built on similar principles to perform exactly the same job in different ways.
It's similar to sports teams: just because Hull City is a Premier League team doesn't mean they are anywhere near as good as Manchester United or City or Chelsea or Arsenal in their overall performance, yet they fight for the same trophy under the same rules.
Some other reviews have - it's close, but hard to say when the current DX12 games tend to be quite heavily sided one way or the other. That's probably a sign of things to come, but the 480 trounces the 1060 in Ashes and Hitman under DX12, while Tomb Raider scores a win in DX12 for nVidia (not sure if that's with the async patch enabled though). Total War in DX12 seems to be more or less equal. Time spy more or less equal.
I'm guessing that they're basically the same in DX12, unless the devs tune for console/AMD in which case the 480 really sees a nice boost.
My brother was going to get a GTX 970 and I told him to wait for the 1060. It is a little more expensive for the 1060, but he can make his money back by having a 150w card instead of a 250w card!
With the Async patch AMD tends to have much better performance and it is pretty weird since the XBox One had async from the beginning - the GoW DX12 version runs better on AMD cards too. With the PS4 Neo supposedly having a Polaris 10 derived GPU,it means there will be plenty of DX11 games also being developed on a Polaris feature set GPU too.
If you look at NV sponsored games like The Division,the AMD cards seem to be doing quite well it appears too.
People think one of the reasons why the R9 290/R9 390 cards seem to have done reasonably well is because the PS4 and XBox One have GCN1.1 GPUs like what Hawaii is.
I am a bit hit and miss on how long the Nvidia cards last now - I got my GTX660 and GTX960 reasonably cheaper,but comparative performance to the HD7870 and R9 380 seems to have gotten worse and worse. My main worry,is that Pascal was a last minute addition to the Nvidia launch schedule(Volta should have appeared by now) and seems to be a souped up Maxwell with some fixes,and seems to still share some of the undelying weaknesses it has.
So where was that way faster performance over RX 480 that Nvidia promised us?....still don't see it and they want me to pay minimum another €70 that is about on par with AMD?
UK Electricity prices average 13.86p/kWh (http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...r-calculations)
365x24 = 8760 hours in a year. 100w difference between GPUs, so 100wx8760h = 876000Wh, or 876kWh.
876kWh x 13.86p = 12141, or £121.41 saving per year in electricity if used at full power 24/7
Of course if you're not running the card full tilt 24/7 it's going to take you longer to make your money back...
https://tpucdn.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1...er_average.png
;)
Don't think you are saving much if any power.
Its not a 100W difference. Lets approximate to 14P a kWh.
Using your price kWh,that means if you game for 40 hours a week for the whole 52 weeks in a year,that would £11.65 a year.
40 hours a week would be like playing for 8 hours each day of the weekend,and then playing nearly 5 hours each day during the week on top of that.
Thanks for the Info Cat, but he's not just gaming. He's a 3D artist for the gaming industry and spends most of his time on his system doing 3D work etc.
no time sy in 3dmark , no vulkan - oh dear
Well he might be better served look at some of the pro cards too - the reason they cost more is because of the software optimisations they have over gaming cards(viewpoint accelleration being one of them). Even then if he is happy using non-pro drivers, GTX980TI and Fury cards are dropping down in price too,and it might worth looking around for some if he is doing more pro work. The GPUs just have far more grunt than a RX480 or GTX1060.
Yes, I did say to him to at least wait for the GTX 1000 series which would come with a drop in the 900 series prices too, so he still might change his mind.
Ironically he is actually coming from an older Quadro card in his desktop system, but is tired of the fact he can't play games as well as Geforce users. His friends in the same field are happily using Geforce cards for gaming and rendering etc, so he going to go Geforce soon, but I think he's a just bit tired of spending hundreds on a single part (hence his interest in the 970 price range).. though as you say, he has two good reasons (work and play) to get a graphics card with a bit more grunt.
There was DX11. Then in May they added DX12, and the DX12 was slower for everyone. Just recently they patched async into the DX12 version http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ris...-12-patch.html I have a feeling Tarinder tested the new patch but I can't be sure.
why no Vulkan benchmarks on Doom?, hearing a rumur Nvidia have told sites not to do it?
Techspot compared with OpenGL and Vulkan: http://www.techspot.com/review/1209-...060/page3.html
So no displayport adaptive sync (aka freesync) support then?
That adds another £80-150 to the effective price for anyone whose going to be buying a monitor with the card or is likely to replace their screen within the lifetime of the card. Given the card is launching at £60 more than the 4GB RX 480 launched at, and more even than the 8GB 480, it's hard to see why anyone would buy one right now.
In a few months time if the price drops to RX 470 levels it could be a serious alternative to a 470 + Freesync. But given today's high launch price I suspect nVidia are going to try and pull off the 'it's expensive so it's good' marketing trick. Hopefully they'll fail, but the gaming market has always been pretty fertile ground for people selling dreams.
Hmm the 470 adds another interesting element to the mix - it's looking to be close to stock 480 performance, so if they manage that for significantly cheaper than the 1060...
Interesting times for the mid-range!
Sadly not. AMD have got the better card for image quality if you take monitors into consideration.
I can see one use-case for the 1060 - a stop gap until Vega. Second hand prices for nVidia hold up fairly well (unrationally so) so if you needed a new card between now and then it might be worth consideration.
I'm glad I jumped the gun and picked up an open box 970 for £155 on prime day :-)
People forget clock speeds and the likes as well... best buy between the two would be the Radeon and if one is not enough buy two of them or so.
more DX12/Vulkan to show in the future please, we can't keep getting reviews of outdated API when the aim is Vulkan/DX12
Doom vulkan bench from hardOCP and yes the RX480 is scoring higher http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/...ition_review/4
ROTTR dx12 http://www.techspot.com/review/1209-...060/page4.html and https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...X_1060/21.html RX480 is closer but still 1060 has the lead. Although something seems a bit odd with some of the Techpowerup scores.
The AIB custom boards will be quite interesting, but if AMD want to keep the momentum going they need the 470 amd 460 out before Nvidia have an answer to them. Hopefully, that is where their effort is going.
Or put another way, most people have probably decided already whether they are going 1060 or 480, it probably isn't much of a fight any more.
There are plenty of people who are still undecided or even those which have put down pre-orders on AIB RX480 cards and at least on OcUK a few people are getting fed-up and have either cancelled the pre-order and got a GTX1060 or are thinking of doing so.
I really do not know what AMD PR is doing - they should be out pushing out as many of the AIB cards out for review as possible,even if you need to wait a few weeks to get them.
They will just start loosing sales to the GTX1060. Nvidia has AIB cards out NOW and a few have been reviewed already.
Plus when Nvidia has run out of stock and they go back on pre-order people will just pre-order those as they are more of a known quantity.
The AIB RX480 cards are an unknown quantity.
Edit!!
Its been THREE WEEKS since the RX480 launched - AMD needs to be getting AIB RX480 card reviews out this week. Gibbo said they are getting even more stock next week for the GTX1060.
Why does AMD keep giving Nvidia chances like this??
Look at launches like the HD4000 and HD5000 series - they hardly gave Nvidia any breathing space.
Sure they have the RX460,RX470 and RX490 to launch,but honestly they need to concentrate on making sure the RX480 launch does not lose momentum.
The R9 290 series launch also started off well and then it seems to have lost momentum.
Second Edit!!
This just shows how much faster an AIB RX480 might be:
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos...G0051164_1.png
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos...G0051164_1.png
You could easily see 10% to 15% extra performance there,which make the RX480 either match or beat a GTX1060 depending on the mix of games. Asus says nearly 19% in the games they tested.
Even the couple of AIB GTX1060 cards tested only are around 3% to 8% faster than the FE GTX1060.
Yes,the GTX1060 would consume less power and that would be the biggest difference.
I really hope they get the AIB RX480 reviews this week,otherwise they have just handed Nvidia more and more free PR.
I'm pretty sure it's the AIB partners who would send those boards out for review - I doubt AMD have much control over that, and if the partners haven't produce cards yet because they're fulfilling back-orders for reference cards they simply won't have custom boards to send out for review. It's not like AMD has a huge war chest of PR money to throw at any problems that crop up.
Didn't you post a thing about there being supply issues due to extreme adverse weather in south-east asia? In which case you *know* what the problem is, and you *know* it's not within AMD's control. They can't get cards out for review if those cards don't exist.
Nvidia is exactly in the same situation and you need to spend money to make money! ;)
Nvidia with less volume than AMD at launch still managed to get AIB cards produced in some volume at the same time as the reference card and seeded out to a few review sites.
Honestly how much does it cost AMD to seed a few priority cards to reviewers?? Think of all the AIB RX480 pre-orders they will have saved. In fact think of all those RX480 reference pre-orders too??
Nvidia has done that in the past with the 1GHZ GTX560TI cards which they used to try and spoil the HD6950 launch.
Those cards barely made production.
It does indicate Nvidia has more control over AIB partners than AMD does apparently,when they cannot even get 10 examples of the RX 480 Nitro in for review this week.
Edit!!
Also,isn't the GF 14NM fab in New York??
Plus that supply issue was regarding Nvidia not AMD IIRC.
Second Edit!!
Didn't Tarinder say they were getting an AIB RX480 card within a week THREE WEEKS ago??
What does AMD expect - wait another two to three weeks while 1000s of AIB GTX1060 cards flood the market.
Yes,all those reviews with AIB GTX1060 cards being compared to the reference RX480 with its throttling issues,which makes the GTX1060 look better than it probably is.
The same thing happened with the R9 290/290X - great initial sales and by the time the AIB cards came,Nvidia had responded well enough with some price cuts on AIB GTX780 cards.
Nvidia has greater mindshare than AMD,so people won't bother waiting if they can get an AIB GTX1060 NOW,with the ETA of AIB cards apparently slipping from this week to August now,even if the AIB RX480 is the better card,it is still an unknown quantity.
Its clever marketing again from Nvidia - get a few AIB cards out. They will be reviewed and owners on forums will no doubt talk about them,whilst the reference RX480 will look less and less enticing.
Nvidia knows how to paper over its cracks,AMD apparently makes them look more obvious.
Lets see if AMD gets some AIB RX480 reviews out this week,because Nvidia is going to make sure they get everyone of the better ones out for review as quickly as they can.
AMD needs to keep pushing the RX480 otherwise they will lose all the momentum of the RX480 launch.
The cheapest card I can find is 290 euros and its not even available yet. The cheapest RX 480 8GB is 260 euros though though out of stock for now.
So personally I'm going to likely go with a custom RX 480, but wait at least a month for prices to normalize and reach their recommended price. Maybe we'll see more competition from both teams and have both cards sell even cheaper.
I thought this was going to be a ripoff but looking at OCUK they have a few cards in the £230-£240 range which is right where the 8GB 480s are and slightly above the 4GBs so it might actually be a good buy providing you don't mostly play hitman.
Hexus, I can't see the 3D mark stability/stress test results.. I presume it passed?
I can see this taking chunks out of the RX480 sales if they can keep the prices close as the performance and electricity savings kind of make this a no brainer.
I can see AMD getting rather worried sooner than later if this cards sales flops, I really wish that they would sell it off to someone with deep pockets to help fund a balanced battle with Nvidia as the state of the market is helping only Nvidia :(
Not everyone is convinced: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-downgrade...m-wells-fargo/
When the 4GB cards turn up in volume, that might turn things around a bit. I can't see anyone much caring about the drop from 8GB to 6GB, but from 4GB to 3GB will start making people uneasy.
Agreed - AMD might not be appealing to forum enthusiasts quite as much, but we are a minority. They've gone after volume, and by any accounts I've heard, the sales of the reference cards (that tend to go to system builders) have been fantastic, to the point they're even ramping production of more OEM preferred specification. Add in the console wins and I don't think you need to be worried about a sales flop.
That said, for the enthusiast AMD have also performed a huge favour - they have at least matched the card nVidia were probably hoping to sell in volume, forcing nVidia to match AMD pricing, not the other way around. nVidia won't mind too much - they've still got margins, especially on the high end cards, but it makes the ~£200 (to £250, thanks brexit) area much more competitive and prevents quite as much price gouging. At the MSRPs $230 vs $299 for reference cards I was expecting a big price difference, but it's basically nothing in UK shops.
Folks, just to update you all on a couple of things:
We will look to add 3DMark Time Spy in the very near future and we will also transition Doom from OpenGL to Vulkan. Time constraints have prevented us from doing so on our initial 1060 reviews, but we hope to add these elements in time for custom-cooled RX 480s - yes, they are on their way.
In the meantime, Hitman, Rise of the Tomb Raider and Total War: Warhammer have all been tested in DX12 mode. The latest patch for Tomb Raider (1.0.668.1) was applied.
Kal - Tarinder did attempt to run the 3DMark stress test, but it kept coming back with 0, which he's putting down to an error in the software.
But the problem is that many consumers never really expected the GTX1060 to be released only a few weeks later - Nvidia has far more exposure on gaming and general youtube type sites,and these are getting more and more influential than the traditional computing sites.
AMD would have had a better idea of this happening IMHO,and they had THREE WEEKS to do something about it.
This is the problem - you can get an AIB GTX1060 now,whilst you can only get reference RX480 cards - gamers will have those cards NOW,and they will be talking about them on numerous sites. With AMD with don't even have the cards available for the next few weeks - and since reviews have not been released,it is pushing people towards the GTX1060.
In real life I know far more people would get Nvidia over AMD and they tend to be the non-enthusiasts and its worse the younger they are.
Heck,one of my mates who posts here,has a RX480 Nitro+ pre-order and nearly cancelled that to buy a GTX1060 since he was getting fedup of waiting. Seen it on OcUK,and you see it elsewhere too and these are enthusiasts.
AMD has less marketshare than Nvidia too - they need to be more aggressive.
AMD is far too reactive - they needed to have had the AIB RX480 already in to spoil the GTX1060 reviews. The GTX1060 reviews of both FE and custom cards should have had AIB RX480 cards - it would have made the GTX1060 less of a glowing recommendation that many well known sites like TPU,Ars,etc have made over the RX480. Then when you add some of the well known youtube channels giving glowing recommendations over the RX480,it just boggles belief AMD seems to not understand that Nvidia would be doing everything to reduce the sheen of the RX480 launch.
Its no point resting on their laurels,just because they had a good launch nearly a month ago - they need to keep up the pressure on Nvidia,not give them chances like they are doing now and Tarinder said they EXPECTED the RX480 to be faster.
This is the same company which seeded pre-overclocked AIB 1GHZ GTX560TI cards,which were eventually withdrawn,to look good against the reference HD6950.
It is no point winning the opening salvo to lose the entire battle.
Remember,AMD has only 30% of the discrete market,so they are the ones who need to be pushing to get more sales 24/7.
Edit!!
This is Nvidia literally mocking AMD before the RX480 launch:
https://twitter.com/pellynv/status/747805063519731713
They did it just after the HD7900 series launch too.
I think the point you're missing is that nvidia's partners won't be selling the reference GTX 1060. Since nvidia have decided to be the only source for the FE 1060 they HAVE to allow partners to release custom versions at the same time, otherwise they'll have NO volume in the channel at all. That will mean they've been supplying bare silicon to partners for months, who'll have been building up stock of custom cards ready for a known launch day. Since AMD decided to have a partner-distributed reference version, they'll have been supplying pre-built cards to partners in the run up to the reference launch, which means they won't have been shipping bare silicon, and the unexpectedly high demand for the reference RX 480 is likely to have left silicon in lower supply for their AIB partners.
Besides which, I'm not convinced we ever had a firm release date for partner RX 480s, so there's no way to know if they are delayed, or if we're still within the window that AMD planned for reference card sales only. And once you've set those kind of release schedules, you CAN'T simply change your plans at the drop of a hat, because you plan production ramps and logistics in advance. If anything AMD are currently victims of their own success - again, you've posted quotes from Gibbo saying that one reason for AMD's delays is that partners are having to fulfil back-orders for reference cards.
Most of AMD's partners are based in SE Asia and they'll be constructing custom cards in their own facilities out there, so where the GF fab is is irrelevant; if there's been supply and assembly disruption in SE Asia it will have impacted the release of custom RX 480s.
I honestly don't think that most of these delays are within AMD's power to correct - they followed a fairly routine launch plan and had excellent availability of the reference card on release, but the demand ended up outstripping their expectations and they've had to fulfil all the back-orders for reference cards before they can start shipping partner cards. Most companies would consider it a huge success to have sold out of their entire initial production run of cards.
Besieds, the GTX 1060 isn't so far ahead of the RX 480 that the people who've already chosen to wait three weeks will be put of by hanging on another week or two to see what the partner cards are like and what price they come in at. I think the biggest threat to partner RX 480s might actually be the RX 470...!
£250 later and I now own a 980. I would have considered this card, if it had performed better, or even the same, as the 980. Then again the price is also a complete pain. How can this company charge these prices again and again? Oh... People pay them that's why.
If you go to amazon.co.uk, at least on my machine, then search for nvidia 1080 what's the first card that appears for you?
Sapphire AMD Radeon RX 480 8GB GDDR5 RAM
Oh Amazon you naughty, naughty web page you!
It doesn't matter - you can get AIB GTX1060 cards NOW - Gibbo said 1000s more by the end of next week. Reviews are already out NOW for AIB GTX1060 cards. Gamers will have AIB GTX1060 cards NOW and will talk about them.
All the FE GTX1060 reviews and the AIB GTX1060 reviews NOW are against the reference version which has an inferior cooler.
AIB GTX1060 cards can be had for as little as £230 to £240 NOW.
Plus who said anything about volume AIB RX480 card releases - Nvidia has seeded AIB cards before mass production before for reviews. You are honestly telling me AMD cannot even seed 10 maybe 20 cards to reviewers to spoil the GTX1060 launch??
FFS,like I said one of my mates who posts on here wanted to get a GTX1060 instead of his RX480 pre-order just because of the fact it was continually delayed and the fact we have no reviews. You are seeing it on other forums too,especially from the lower post count type people(which means they are probably not massive hardware enthusiasts too).
If Nvidia can see AIB cards early so can AMD.
We might all a bit rose tinted when it comes to AMD here,but the reality is Nvidia is massively outselling AMD even at DIY level and they need to be more proactive and aggressive.
They had THREE WEEKS to respond and no amount of excuse making on the part of AMD changes that,especially when everybody in the channel would have realised Nvidia was launching(think of all the paper trail for the retail cards),and Nvidia seems to quite aware of when AMD is launching stuff too - remember the GTX980TI magically appearing just before the Fury X launch!? ;)
AMD have screwed up yet again,and given Nvidia free PR.
Then add the fact the RX480 had the PCI-E power issue and the marginal cooler,it means with the AIB cards massively delayed it gave Nvidia a nice easy target - remember Tarinder said Nvidia expected the RX480 to be faster.
The excuse from AMD is that they had a slightly med reference model so not to step on the toes of AIB partners.
Well that worked out very well as THREE WEEKS later,we don't even have a single AIB card review,let alone a solid release date to get said cards. Nvidia have played another perfect launch and made sure AIB cards are released well before AMD.
So many reviews are giving glowing comments about the GTX1060 - its faster, consumes less power,better cooler than the RX480 but is not massively more expensive. That is the sort of things we are seeing.
If instead of patting themselves on the back,if AMD aggressively had pushed some AIB samples out for the GTX1060 reviews,the only thing going for the latter would be lower power consumption.
Its bad enough when AMD trades blows with Nvidia products,Nvidia outsells them but if Nvidia is even 5% faster and consumes less power then what do you think will happen??
Look at what happened when the GTX970 was not massively faster than an R9 290 but consumed less power?? Nvidia destroyed AMD sales in that segment it appears.
Mostly I've seen reference 1060 reviews. The few custom 1060 reviews don't reveal a large performance increase over reference. I think comparing ref 1060 to ref 480 is entirely fair and in the consumers interests. AMD shouldn't *need* custom 480s in order to compete, and I'd argue they don't. As it is, custom cards are going to hit in volume soon, so anyone who is on the fence enough for the few fps difference between 1060 and 480 reference cards to be important is going to be more than happy to wait and see what the custom releases bring to the table. And even if they're more desperate, stock levels will determine what card they can get so getting volume of cards in shops is more important than spoiling a release.
The sad thing is Nvidia has more mindshare amongst non-enthusiasts and AMD needs to get those people by offering better cards for the price. The whole point is you get reviews like this from TPU:
https://tpucdn.com/reviews/NVIDIA/Ge..._1920_1080.png
https://tpucdn.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1..._1920_1080.pngQuote:
Should there actually be GTX 1060 cards that retail for $249, any hopes of AMD will be dashed because the GTX 1060 will also beat it in performance-per-dollar, leaving AMD with no real wins with which to convince potential buyers.
Computerbase.de used some newer games and had two AIB GTX1060 cards which were upto 8% faster.Quote:
MSI has priced their GTX 1060 Gaming X at $289, which is $10 less than the NVIDIA Founders Edition, which makes it a no-brainer. The card is faster, cooler, and quieter - there is no reason to go with the FE unless you absolutely want its specific looks - the cooler is gorgeous and of ultra-high build quality. The Gaming X is still $40 more than NVIDIA's MSRP, a price that might be a fantasy, just like on GTX 1070 and 1080 cards. However, looking at MSI's previous pricing for the Gaming series, a $40 increase over reference is not too different from what we've seen in the past. Either way, MSI's card is awesome and should be on top of your GTX 1060 shopping list. Compared to the Radeon RX 480, everything is improved at the cost of only $60, which results in a price-performance ratio that is 10% worse, something I'd go for any day.
Look at the Hexus review - the GTX1060 looks faster overall and consumes less power.
AIB models could be had for £230 to £240 on launch day delivered.
At this point the reference RX480 is not much cheaper and looks a worse deal.
People will be having these cards now and it will be giving Nvidia mindshare there - all comparisons will be against the frankly meh reference RX480 model. All those people on gaming forums and youtube channels.
AMD should have had AIB RX480 reviews out now to spoil the GTX1060 launch.
They have not and given Nvidia another nice easy target to aim for.
LMAO.
After nearly a month AMD apparently has an inability to even get some AIB RX480 out just for review. They have just handed Nvidia more sales and more pre-orders.
They can only have cards if there is stock. Now it might be that nVidia have stockpiled, and got loads of cards to AIB partners so stock will be plentiful. In which case, well done nVidia. But AMD clearly couldn't have done that or they would have had the cards out before now. However we do think AMD will have volume stock over the next few days, so if nVidia can't match that, AMD win.
We'll be able to tell by looking at store prices - if the custom 1060s end up over £250 then it's clear they don't have huge stock so retailers/AIB partners are selling what inventory they have at a premium.
Gibbo said the had a few 100 now and a few 1000 more next week - people are getting fedup with the continually delayed RX480 AIB pre-orders,especially with the fact we have NO real performance figures(apart from AIB PR).
The whole issue again is the reference RX480 has been shown up by not only the FE GTX1060 AIB cards which have been reviewed and more of those other cards will be reviewed professionally in the next week or so,plus all those gamers on forums and YT channels too.
Nvidia knows this very well so that is why they made sure that AIB cards were pushed out for review and purchase as quickly as they can. Its great PR for them.
AMD made the excuse that the reference card was made in such a way so not to step on the toes of AIB card partners.
Then they authorise pre-orders weeks ago saying they would be delivered this week.
Yet,nothing.
They need to keep interest in the RX480 going and if it were not for the RX480 4GB(which was meant to be a limited part it seems),things would not be looking as great.
So if you have been waiting weeks for a card which is now been delayed even more,and has no reviews and you see an AIB GTX1060 on sale(and has been reviewed),what do you think people will do?? Its negative PR for AMD.
If they had been aggressive and gotten out at least a few reviews of some of the AIB cards,the GTX1060 would have looked more ordinary and people would have less thought of ditching their pre-order.
AMD can't afford to make mis-steps like this and not against Nvidia. They should know very well by now Nvidia will do everything to rain on their parade.
I think we should be cautious about crying 'delay' when we don't have official release dates from AMD. Also you have to beware a situation where you get cards to reviewers which you can't then back up in retail availability - the damage such a 'paper launch' would do to AMDs reputation is far more important - the message they are sending to their shareholders and partners is volume availability, and it would be killed by a paper launch.
It is a delay - the date for release was meant to be the 21st/22nd for the Sapphire card(it was on the pre-order page),and one of my mates has waited weeks now - now it is closer to August 5th apparently. He nearly bought a GTX1060 but I managed to sort of get him to wait for the RX480. People on forums have cancelled(or are considering cancelling) their RX480 pre-orders to get a GTX1060. AMD needs to get on top of this uncertainty now - the AIB RX480 cards are an unknown quantity still.
Plus,even paper launching the AIB RX480 cards would do far less damage to AMD,then Nvidia flooding professional and more social review channels with loads of AIB GTX1060 cards(which also are in short supply) and all of which have scored the points of being a better package than the reference RX480. First impressions count and the GTX1060 as a package looks superior to the average gamer,ie,better cooler,faster in DX11,actually available,etc.
If it were not for the fact that AMD seems to have the edge in DX12,the reference RX480 would be screwed.
If AMD had been more proactive and got AIB RX480 card reviews out NOW,then it would have knocked the sheen off both the FE GTX1060 and AIB GTX1060 launch.
This is not the first or last time Nvidia has pulled this stunt on ATI/AMD and you would think by now they would have realise it.
Edit!!
This is the other thing - AMD apparently made the reference RX480 crap so not to piss of AIB partners.
Well if they knew they could not get the AIB partners to get cards out quick enough for custom versions,why didn't they just make a decent reference model with a proper power connector and a better cooler which did not throttle??
They could have just phased it out when the AIB partners got custom cards,which probably would still be a bit better.
A non-throttling reference RX480 would be faster and more competitive with a GTX1060.
Instead AMD has managed to get themselves into a situation where they have yet another meh reference model which is not showing their card in the best light and Nvidia yet again having a better cooler on their reference card and AIB models too.
Yet,the AMD AIB models have gone AWOL.
Its almost like the same issue with the R9 290/R9 290X.
Second Edit!!
LMAO:
http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-review...-gaming-x.html
So,Hexus has an AIB GTX1060 review before AMD can get even one AIB RX480 review out,even with the cards being on pre-order for weeks.
AMD again going in with their weakest hand and Nvidia responding with their strongest hand.
http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg
TPU's round up clearly showed the reference RX 480 giving better bang for buck than the GTX 1060. So it doesn't look a worse deal by any stretch of the imagination.
AMD don't get to decide whether partner cards get sent for review. The partners do that. If the partners don't have the cards, they can't send them for review. If they're busy making up back-orders for the reference card, they can't make custom cards. If you honestly believe that AMD's partners have large stocks of custom cards that they are sitting on because AMD have told them not to sell them yet, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying. If the cards were available we'd have seen them reviewed and on sale. AMD can't make partners send cards for review, and partners can't send cards they don't have for review.
The fact that nvidia have managed to steal a march by having a larger volume of mid-range cards ready than AMD expected is hardly AMD's fault. Besides, we've yet to see just how many GTX 1060's are in stock - for instance, ebuyer have 10 listed, but the cheapest 7 are all pre-order only. You want to buy a GTX 1060 from ebuyer today, you'll be paying £270.
There's not a lot AMD can do about that - as you say, these are the established gaming community who have preconceived notions about the various companies. Nvidia have much greater marketshare so they have greater consumer awareness. AMD's best solution to that is to win back market share, and they won't do that by fussing over the £250+ market. The sub £200, high volume market is where the marketshare will really kick in.
AMD have sold a huge number of RX 480s already, and I suspect they are far from the sweet spot for this generation - we already know they're running at high voltage and power draw to hit the target clocks AMD set. I doubt AMD will care if people with £250 to spend choose a GTX 1060 over an 8GB RX 480 - they've already hammered that market by being first to launch any kind of card. And now nvidia's had to show its hand (and it's not hugely impressive), they can roll out the RX 470, which should perform very close to the RX 480, be significantly cheaper, and saturate the next rung down on the mainstream ladder, as well as touting the performance of custom 4GB RX 480s, which I suspect will match the GTX 1060 but be cheaper. They might even be delaying so they can balance the stock of 8GB cards and 4GB cards - if the performance is similar enough they can push partners to release more custom 4GB cards @ £200 and so undercut the GTX 1060 substantially...
But given the good sales of reference RX 480s, I suspect nvidia can have the rest of £250+ market as far as AMD are concerned. They've got 2 more high volume products to roll out over the next few weeks/months, and they've already turned a good return on the RX 480. Time for the RX 470 and RX 460 to bring home the bacon...
Sorry but it does look worse since it is hard to even find reference RX480 cards at RRP now which you can buy- you could get AIB GTX1060 cards at launch for as little as £230 to £240.
Plus stop making excuses for AMD - AMD and Nvidia work with their AIB partners and that is why Nvidia has managed to push AIB partners to get AIB boards out for launch. The RX480 4GB was a limited model according to Gibbo and it shows how much AMD has screwed up that now they need to look at a lower margin model to look OK.
This is AMD's fault - so basically they can't even get 10 AIB cards out for review. You keep on purpose ignoring that - if they cannot even get AIB partners to seed a few AIB cards for review,that shows you how weak a relationship AMD must have since Nvidia can apparently get AIB partners to seed non reference cards fine.
This is why Nvidia has stronger mindshare. You don't seem to understand this AT ALL.
Their launches are nearly perfect.
AMD launches are not perfect - the RX480 launch had niggles and glossing over that is not going to change that.
Tarinder even said Nvidia expected more from AMD. Nvidia PR openly mocked the RX480 launch.
Now they have had a near perfect launch.
FE GTX1060 reviews are out.
AIB GTX1060 reviews are out.
If anybody wants to even pre-order an AIB GTX1060 they know what to expect.
The AIB RX480 cards are a unknown.
More and more people will go for the known quantity as time progresses.
Thats basically it.
Plus the excuse of they sold a lot of RX480 cards at launch - so what?? They win the first salvo and lose the battle. The R9 290/290X did well at launch but AMD delaying reference models meant Nvidia recovered quite quickly form that. The same pretty much with the HD7970/HD7950,and even their slow response to the GTX970 launch and so on. Launching the GTX980TI just before the Fury X,etc.
Nvidia has shown time and time again they seem to be able to quickly respond far quicker than AMD does.
AMD can't afford to relax against Nvidia with only 30% sales marketshare. They need to push as hard as possible and not making sure that AIB RX480 card reviews are out is them pushing their foot off the peddle.
Nvidia never does that once they smell blood - its why they were nearly at 80% sales marketshare last year.
Lovely strawman there - you just made that point up and lied didn't you?? I said they needed AIB cards out now for review to make sure the sheen of the GTX1060 launch was reduced.Quote:
If you honestly believe that AMD's partners have large stocks of custom cards that they are sitting on because AMD have told them not to sell them yet, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.
You can make more and more excuses but more and more people are less likely to want to keep their RX480 pre-orders or make new ones for cards which have had no review against reviewed AIB GTX1060 cards.
Ignore on purpose the fact Gibbo said they had 100s of GTX1060 yesterday and 1000s more next week.
This is entirely the fault of AMD and no amount of excuse making will change that.Looking at the Fermi launch,more people would rather wait for a Nvidia card too than a AMD/ATI one.
No amount of deflecting will change the fact that if your competitor with greater mindshare has AIB cards at launch and nearly after a month you cannot even get a few review samples out for your AIB cards,something has radically gone wrong somewhere.
Your implication - or at least my inference - was that you think AMD - or their partners - have cards available that they can send to be reviewed. If they don't there's no point saying they need to get the cards out for review.
Got a link for a GTX 1060 *in stock* at £230? Overclockers and Scan both have stock at £250, but then they both have 8GB RX 480s in stock at £230 (and overclockers has a 4GB RX 480 @ £215). Ebuyer hads RX 480 pre-orders at £220. The cheapest pre-order GTX 1060 I can find is one model from overclockers @ £230, otherwise they universally start at £240, and they're still on pre-order, not in stock. You want to buy a GTX 1060 today, you'll be paying at least £250.
I'm really not sure why you're trying to impart "fault" for what by any reasonable measure was a successful launch by AMD? They hit this market segment first, sold out all of a large first run stock, and got enough back-orders that they're still working to fulfil them. Just because YOU want custom RX 480s to be available and competing with the GTX 1060 NOW, doesn't make that a good result for AMD. They don't need to waste money trying to compete in this segment against what is actually a technologically better product (smaller silicon area, lower power draw, higher absolute performance in most games? Yeah, the GTX 1060 is a better card, technologically).
I really don't get why you're taking this so personally or badly. The RX 480 is a good card, and in a business sense its launch was hugely successful. nvidia's launch is notionally "better" if you're an enthusiast as they have a wider range of cards available, but the RX 480 isn't the market where AMD care about competing - obviously, because they are not working hard to compete there.
AMD run a business. Their launches are about what works for the business, not what works for the enthusiast - even more so in this generation, because they have explicitly stated that they are targeting the mainstream market. So they're not going to spend money trying to "beat" nvidia in a smaller market just for kudos. The RX 480 is already a business success. They've got the RX 470 and RX 460 coming. They're working on getting more volume through OEMs, which is one of the key markets they *need* to hit to get widespread mindshare - they need prominent OEM design wins. The enthusiast market isn't the one that's going to revive AMD's fortunes - it's getting their cards into as many OEM desktops as possible, to increase that much wider consumer brand awareness. Partner cards don't do that. Good reference designs and good pricing do that.
You know as well as I do that the majority of people spend < £200 on a GPU. At the minute AMD are the only company with a new product in that market. They're going to be launching 2 more products that will also address that market. The RX 400s are all about AMD building volume and marketshare. And they've sold a lot of RX 480s.
Sorry CAT, but product launches aren't all about enthusiasts. AMD don't have the money to cater to minority crowds at the minute. The RX 480 launch looks like a business success (and investors seem to agree with AMD shares currently on a 4 year high). If the RX 470 and RX 460 go well, and AMD can start winning back mass market share, then maybe they can start worrying about halo status and competing in smaller markets. But for now, I'm happy for them to cede the £250 market to nvidia if it allows them to focus on getting that market share back.
Cat, I'm too busy to look but can you tell if the AIB 1060 cards are just a FE board with a custom cooler on it?
A couple of things strike me here, firstly that the old trick of early AIB boards just dressing up a reference card with new fans and shrouds won't fly with the 480 (which takes us again to your comment that they should have nailed the reference card better with at least the option for a second 6 pin power connector that they didn't fit). That could force the engineering of a full custom board layout, something which generally takes time so it would be interesting to see if Nvidia actually gave the AIB manufacturers that amount of time.
Then there is the issue of, if I were MSI (or similar), what would I do if presented with near simultaneous launch dates for RX480 and GTX1060 custom boards? When historically Nvidia cards sell in higher volumes, that would be the obvious card to target. So I would expect the 1060 cards to get more effort put in, apart from the likes of Sapphire who you would hope will have no distractions, yet they are late to the party too?
Which is what makes me wonder if they are brewing up some 460 cards, because something must be getting in the way (and if the ram chips to build 4GB 480 cards are on allocation then the same problem will presumably hit the 4GB 470 unless they make that a 6GB card with 192 bit bus).
You mean all the people who bought GTX1060 AIB cards yesterday before they sold out. 1000s coming next week according to Gibbo.
But the problem is you are thinking as an enthusiast - Nvidia outsold AMD 7/3 last time I looked. You are stuck in an enthusiast mindset and ignoring the last few years of how things have panned out for AMD. No amount of massaging changes the fact the RX480 does not look as good a product now - that is to gamers not hardware enthusiasts.
Just because YOU and I have got excited that AMD has managed to shift a decent amount of RX480 cards at launch means nothing - just winning the opening salvo to lose the battle is not good.
Within THREE WEEKS,Nvidia has knocked the shine off the RX480 launch entirely and sadly enthusiast don't seem to get it.
The FE GTX1060 in reviews is faster and more efficient than the reference RX480. FACT.
AIB GTX1060 cards are already out and are faster and cheaper than the FE cards. FACT.
AMD has no RX480 cards in stock since launch. FACT.
No reviews of the AIB cards at all whereas Nvidia has reviews out. FACT.
AIB cards are available for under £240 and people bought them yesterday. FACT.
Social review sites and gamers forums will have people spreading the good word about their AIB GTX1060 cards which cost much less than the FE cards. FACT.
No amount of massaging or deflection changes the fact,that nearly a month after the RX480 launch,not a single AIB RX480 review has landed. None are available.
I see more and more people on forums cancelling RX480 pre-orders for the GTX1060.
Anybody pre-ordering a card today,will know what a AIB GTX1060 will perform like - we have no real clue what the AIB RX480 cards are like. FACT.
What you don't seem to get is that Nvidia has greater mindshare too,and that means more people will gravitate towards them.
We as enthusiasts tend to be in our little spheres regarding these companies - the fact is Nvidia is doing much better than AMD currently,and them making the RX480 an easy target for the GTX1060 will only drive more people towards Nvidia.
The MSI has a custom PCB:
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...ages/front.jpg
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...ages/front.jpg
Remember the Sapphire RX480 Nitro+ leaks with a silver cooler?? According to Sapphire they were cards from a few months ago.
AMD could have pushed to get a few reviewers AIB RX480 cards in time for the launch.
Hexus has got that MSI GTX1060 already reviewed.
Its one thing expecting loads of cards NOW,but goodness grief,AMD can't get a few AIB RX480 cards for review in time for the GTX1060 launch.
This is what happened to the R9 290/R9 290X.
Great cards but with niggles.
By the time AMD had AIB ones out,Nvidia had enough time to drop the price of AIB GTX780 cards and plonk some games on too.
It was the reference R9 290/R9 290X against AIB GTX780 cards.
If they had an AIB RX480 in time for the GTX1060 reviews,the GTX1060 would have not looked like a faster card which consumed less power,which many of the reviews have pretty much stated is what they see the GTX1060 as being.
Edit!!
Why I am annoyed about this,is that in the last few years at EVERY LAUNCH,AMD has given Nvidia these chances.
Nvidia OTH,has shown its willingness to do anything to rain on AMD's parade and sadly it does work for them longterm.
It's curious that the custom PCBs also have those GDDR5 blanks?
Its most likely Nvidia might launch a GP104 based SKU - a GTX1060TI anybody?? It might be what that SA article was talking about a while back.
I wouldn't have thought so with this die because of the bus width, 3GB or 6GB can fill the controller evenly, 4/8GB would be lopsided. That can lead to suddenly slower access to memory if you push into that last 1/2GB because of having to share the one 64-bit 'channel' with another memory IC. That's probably not a sensible thing for Nvidia to do after the 970 fiasco (although they seemed to get 'punished' for that by people running out and giving them more money for 980s :laugh: - maybe they will do it again???)
It's not unheard of though, I think the 660Ti did it. It's not as severe as the 970's problem though.
No, the cards are custom but that MSI board looks strikingly similar to the MSI custom 1080 board. Knock off a few phases, remove the SLI fingers, voila (or after brexit perhaps I should say "there ya go me ole china").
Now if Nvidia have banned SLI, then that mandates a new board for the 1060 even if the chips involved are pin compatible. If you are forced to re-work, you may as well do some obvious cost reductions where necessary (can't use so many phases with a single 6 pin connector) but leaving build options open makes sense.
I suspect the board leaves open the possibility of a 1080 ITX variant, lower TDP but full bus width.
This also explains how custom boards for 1060 were out so fast, deleting a few components and doing a sister board variant layout isn't that much work compared to designing a board from scratch!
Possibly because that is the reference GTX1060TI board??
But it could be something else - the GP106 used in the GTX1060 is not fully enabled. It might have a 256 bit memory controller,meaning Nvidia can do a cheap refresh range at a later date.
If you look at the TPU review of the GTX1060 it looks quite bandwidth limited and remember it is a 48 ROP design too.
I'm not going to go through this with a fine tooth comb, we obviously have different perspectives on this, but I do want to answer a couple of points:
No, I'm not. I'm looking at it from a business perspective. You're looking at it from an enthusiast perspective, thinking that AMD and nvidia must compete aggressively with each other at every market point where they both have a card. AMD don't need to win every battle. They can win the war by taking huge swathes of the actual mainstream with the RX 470 and RX 460. The RX 480 & GTX 1060 are both priced outside the mainstream space.
I assume you mean custom cards here - there are plenty of reference RX 480s in stock - https://www.overclockers.co.uk/search?sSearch=RX+480 - there are 5 cards on the first page of that search showing 10+ in stock.
Enthusiasts may not, but I do. The RX 480 is a worse card than the GTX 1060 on every aspect but price, and there's not much in it there.
But here's the difference CAT - you think the GTX 1060 being better than the RX 480 matters. You think AMD need to beat nvidia at every price point where they both have a card. But that's simply not true. AMD need market share. And it's not the enthusiast part of the market where they're really lacking; we know the 290/Fury cards did pretty well. it's the mainstream. It's attachments to big OEM desktops, which all fall in the mainstream segment and pretty much all currently come with nvidia graphics. It's attachment ot big OEM laptops, which, again, are almost all nvidia. It's discrete channel sales in the sub $200 bracket, where the GTX 960/950/750 Ti have been ruling the roost for a couple of years. That's where they need to focus their efforts.
The key will be the RX 470 launch. If we're having this same conversation about that card (and the GTX 1050, maybe?) then AMD will have messed up. But I don't think the RX 480 was ever meant to be the volume selling card from this launch. I think AMD won't care that the GTX 1060 is faster than the RX 480, because I think custom RX 470s will be faster than the reference RX 480. And that's the card we really need to watch.
EDIT:
One last thought: if we run with the assumption that the custom RX 480s were essentially ready weeks or months ago but haven't been sent out, perhaps that's down to AMD wanting to see what the GTX 1060 did so they could work with partners to set boost and memory cocks that would beat a reference GTX 1060? It would've been worse for AMD to seed the press with custom cards last week only to discover that the GTX 1060 was faster than the custom cards they'd already sent out....
Sorry but I am the one looking at it form a business perspective. You don't seem to get repeatedly that all the GTX1060 FE and AIB reviews are against reference cards.Quote:
I'm not going to go through this with a fine tooth comb, we obviously have different perspectives on this, but I do want to answer a couple of points:
No, I'm not. I'm looking at it from a business perspective. You're looking at it from an enthusiast perspective, thinking that AMD and nvidia must compete aggressively with each other at every market point where they both have a card. AMD don't need to win every battle. They can win the war by taking huge swathes of the actual mainstream with the RX 470 and RX 460. The RX 480 & GTX 1060 are both priced outside the mainstream space.
Gamers on forums and on YT channels have these cards now,and that is where AMD is loosing big time,once they start extolling the virtues how much better their AIB GTX1060 is when compared to the reference RX480.
Most of the younger gamers,seem to far more interested in Nvidia products too - it does not help when AMD is not presenting their own products in the best light.
FFS - look at the last few AMD single GPU card launches since 2013:
1.)R7 260X - meh
3.)R9 280/280X - a bit hit and miss
2.)R9 290/290X - starts off good and then descends into failure
3.)R9 285 - AMD seeds the worst performance/watt R9 285 card out there,and it looks a backward step since Nvidia has just launched Maxwell MK2
4.)R9 300 series - actually is not too bad at all
5.)Fury launch - more disaster
6.)RX 480 - more niggles
Compare that to the last few Nvidia launches:
1.)Geforce Titan - decent but pricey
2.)GTX780 - decent but pricey
3.)GTX780TI - decent but pricey
4.)GTX770 - not too bad
5.)GTX760 - not too bad
6.)GTX750/GTX750TI - perfect but considered slightly pricey
7.)GTX970/GTX980 - first is perfect and second perfect but considered slightly pricey
8.)GTX960 - considered a tad underpowered but considered better than the R9 285
9.)GTX950 - much the same as the GTX960 but better than the AMD competitor the R7 370
8.)GTX1070 and GTX1080 - perfect but pricey
9.)GTX1060 - perfect
This is what a non-enthusiast will see just quickly reading a few reviews or glancing through a few magazines. Heck,go onto YT channels and gaming ones even.
This is sadly what I get from a lot of non-enthusiasts. Nvidia is "better" and no wonder with the fact their launches are mostly positive.
Like I said AMD needs to not lose the momentum on the RX480 launch,and not getting AIB cards out for review was a major mis-step IMHO.
Quote:
I assume you mean custom cards here - there are plenty of reference RX 480s in stock - https://www.overclockers.co.uk/search?sSearch=RX+480 - there are 5 cards on the first page of that search showing 10+ in stock.
For the last few weeks,they have not been in stock and the few that were,were like £260?? They only dropped in price with the GTX1060 launch arrived - the same as Sapphire suddenly dropping the price on the RX480 4GB. Gibbo was on record saying he pushed for AIB RX480 4GB cards.
BTW,some of those reference cards were the SAME price as AIB GTX1060 cards and they only dropped because the GTX1060 landed.
But the problem is that in this social media age,AMD does not have the top spot,ie,has no halo marketing.Quote:
Enthusiasts may not, but I do. The RX 480 is a worse card than the GTX 1060 on every aspect but price, and there's not much in it there.
But here's the difference CAT - you think the GTX 1060 being better than the RX 480 matters. You think AMD need to beat nvidia at every price point where they both have a card. But that's simply not true. AMD need market share. And it's not the enthusiast part of the market where they're really lacking; we know the 290/Fury cards did pretty well. it's the mainstream. It's attachments to big OEM desktops, which all fall in the mainstream segment and pretty much all currently come with nvidia graphics. It's attachment ot big OEM laptops, which, again, are almost all nvidia. It's discrete channel sales in the sub $200 bracket, where the GTX 960/950/750 Ti have been ruling the roost for a couple of years. That's where they need to focus their efforts.
The key will be the RX 470 launch. If we're having this same conversation about that card (and the GTX 1050, maybe?) then AMD will have messed up. But I don't think the RX 480 was ever meant to be the volume selling card from this launch. I think AMD won't care that the GTX 1060 is faster than the RX 480, because I think custom RX 470s will be faster than the reference RX 480. And that's the card we really need to watch.
You see it even with laptops sales too - Apple went with AMD and yet you have loads of their fans saying they should have stayed with Nvidia since it is "better".
If Nvidia now makes AMD look worse in the £200 to £300 market it pushes AMD down and down to lower margin areas.
Remember,due to the weak pound the RX480 and GTX1060 are probably 10% more expensive they probably would have been - that is close to the £200 mark for the cheaper models. That is the sort of price range cards like the GTX460 were around.
Plus we saw how the GTX970 for only £50 more sold loads more than the previous generation £250 card(sales in that area doubled last year according to JPR).
The worse thing is that the RX480 is no 2900XT or 8500. It looks worse than it is due to AMD having a crap stock cooler(so not to step on the toes of AIB partners supposedly) and then for some reason,they have a six pin power connector when the card is slightly over 150W for board power in reality.
Yet,they have a massively over engineered PCB and power section,when the card cannot even use it.
Its hilarious - Nvidia with their FE GTX1060 has a more appropriate PCB and cooler for its class.
This is why I am so annoyed at what AMD has done - they should have pushed to get at least a few AIB RX480 cards out this week.
Now,for the next few months EVERY time somebody looks for a GTX1060 FE or AIB review it will be pitted against the reference RX480 - just like what happened with the R9 290/290X series. Then AMD gets the "hot" and "consumes too much power" and "under-performs" moniker lumped onto the whole blasted range.
Regarding the RX470 it might be the case,especially if the GTX1050TI is only a 3GB card,but Nvidia has had success in selling RAM gimped cards in the past sadly,unless they use it to successfully up-sell the GTX1060 instead.
It also means all the cards under it will also get a sort of mini-halo effect from the GTX1060.
AMD needs perfect launches so to drive mindshare towards it - if they can only compete with a GTX1050,it makes it comparatively worse than the HD3000 series and AMD had much more sales marketshare back then.
But Vega's going to be great, right? ;)
Separated at birth? 1060 vs 1080 MSI custom cards, look at the cut & paste on that:
http://cdn.videocardz.com/1/2016/05/...MING-X-PCB.jpg
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...ages/front.jpg
You're missing the point again CAT. nvidia aren't pushing AMD out of the £200 - £300 market, AMD are choosing to leave it.
AMD haven't turned a profit worth mentioning in over 4 years, partly because they've had to sell what should've been high margin parts with very low margins. I suspect that's exactly because they're currently technologically behind nvidia. They're haemorraging money, they operate at around half the gross profit margins of their immediate competitors, they have very small market shares in both CPU and GPU, and they need to do something to address that.
I can't find any good figures for market size by price bracket, but given that in 2015 "enthusiast" GPUs - apparently priced from ~ $350 - were only 15% of the total market, I think it's not unreasonable to assume that more than half the market is for cards costing < $200. It's that mass market that AMD are targeting - the profit margins in that market are probably comparable with their normal gross margins anyway. The best way back to profitability for AMD is by increasing volume, and fighting nvidia in the £250+ market isn't going to do that for them - they'd be throwing good money after bad. As I said, they actually made a reasonable fist of the initial launch of the RX 480, and sold lots of high margin reference cards on the back of it. I'm pretty sure that they have chosen not to fight the GTX 1060 so they can instead concentrate their limited resources on the RX 470 and RX 460 launches, particularly the RX 460 - that's the one that will find its way into high volume system integrator boxes and laptops, and give them a shot at picking up market share against nvidia.
EDIT:
I wouldn't go that far, but they've obviously reused a lot of the same masking. There's plenty of differences though - enough to make me dubious about pin-compatibility between the GP104 and GP 106. OTOH the GPU packages are the same size, so it's certainly not inconceivable.
The right hand side of the board is different, so is the size of the VRAM packages.
I always thought the blanks were for the traces that led to disabled memory controllers.
Heh so MSI use the same general layout scheme.. but there's quite a difference between the two still - the missing phases for the VRMs for example - why isn't it a full line of marked area? And likewise tracing to the chip (bar the common PCI-E interface) looks quite different.
If AMD are choosing to leave it that is even dumber - they will be pushed into lower and lower margin markets. Nvidia will now have halo marketing for 6 million over £200 cards sold last year,which doubled the 3 million figure the previous year. Those millions of over £200 cards will make Nvidia look the better brand and it will mean by extension people will just go Nvidia anyway for cheaper cards.
The issue this also directly impacts the lower end of the market - if people think Nvidia is the better brand,it means even the crap cards Nvidia sells will get a boost. You only have to look at how many people are bemoaning the move to AMD cards with Apple products and how Nvidia is better and Apple is cheaping out going with AMD,etc and yet AMD has better OpenCL performance which is what Apple wants in its dGPUs.
The worst thing this is again down to AMD screwing up - they have essentially sleepwalked right into the GTX1060. AIB RX480 cards should be more than competitive with a GTX1060 - even a decent RX480 reference model would have done the same. I don't understand after the fiasco of the R9 290/290X how they could do the SAME thing yet again. The reason why they are in their current situation is down to the repeated mistakes they are making.
The RX480 has started its competitive lifespan with a loss against the GTX1060 and its a loss which should not have happened.
Historically ATI/AMD has always had a very minimal budget even in its hey day when compared to the combined bugdet of people like Intel and Nvidia. Yet they still did cards like the 9700 PRO and HD5850.
ATI even with the HD2000 and HD3000 series had more sales marketshare than AMD has now - it just shows you that ATI were better at PR and selling their products.
We're not sure AMD have access to GDDR5X, it even looks like nVidia have the pick of GDDR5 at the moment. That, together with the bandwidth hungry nature of their design, means they have to wait for HBM to be competitive in the higher tiers. They could have (and maybe will still) released a larger die chip with GDDR5/X, but it still isn't going to take the performance lead - just cost them more materials and margin.
On the other hand they did release a high volume part first. They've got plenty of margins, and the reference cards are good enough to be lapped up by system builders, with the promise of great value parts in the 470 and 460 to come. Only now have nVidia released an OEM counter and I'm not sure it has the volume or features that OEMs want the most.
AMD haven't abandoned the higher end. Vega is coming.
Yeah,Vega is coming but AMD literally seems surprised when Nvidia does one on their parade - yet the last 12+ years has shown Nvidia does things like that. An AIB RX480 would easily be 10% maybe 15% faster. That means in DX11 centric test suites,the AIB RX480 cards should probably be better overall than a FE GTX1060(or trades blows with it) and close enough to a AIB GTX1060. Plus the AIB GTX1060 cards will still be worse in DX12. That would have made the GTX1060 look much worse NOW.
But the problem is if a non-enthusiast searches for a GTX1060 review - the majority will place them as better than a RX480 reference card. This will continue for months,as the launch reviews will still be on the internet. Its why the R9 200 series relaunch helped - all the cards were retested with newer drivers and games,and it took the shine off the GTX970 and GTX960 and meant AMD looked better. They also had better coolers. Hence they have started to get some more marketshare.
By AMD not pushing for the AIB cards sooner,it makes the AIB RX480 look a reactionary product against a "superior" Nvidia card which has taken weeks to get here after the RX480 launch.
My main issue is not the availability but the fact that now the RX480 looks an inferior part against the GTX1060 and even system builders will need to accommodate that in their builds.
AIB RX480 reviews this week would certainly make the RX480 look far more competitive in every way - maybe not power consumption,but in the end the delta is nowhere as bad as the R9 380 and GTX960 and the R9 380 did OK AFAIK.
The RX480 is not a bad card - its rough around the edges,but the GTX1060 seems more polished overall to the average consumer.
That means even with prebuilt PCs,more will want the GTX1060 in their rig,unless the AMD option is much cheaper. Sadly this is what I have started to see more and more amongst gamers.