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Thread: Fractal Design Torrent

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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    That design is a bit of a throwback in terms of thermal layout..... just seems odd to have no 'top vent' when you consider heat rises and with this a fair bit heat is going into the psu.
    Heat does NOT rise.
    If you don't believe me, I have an exercise to prove it to you, but it will result in burned fingers and possibly a trip to A&E.

    Warmer air does rise... but most PC fans have enough power to completely overcome this and move that warmer air elsewhere, thus negating the effect it might have on components above.
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Heat does NOT rise. ....
    I'm not disagreeing with that, but isn't that a bit .... pedantic. I mean, unless I'm missing something (which is eminently possible) then in the context of this thread subject, aren't heat and hot (or hotter than other) air the same thing? Sure, to a physicist or engineeer they're not, but in the context of case cooling, heat exchange from component, to cooler, to air and then exhausting of said hotter air to outside of case, aren't they the same? Genuine question, BTW.

    That is to say, in the absence of other influences, and with a top vent, I would expect a degree of convection to result in most warmer air finding the top vent before it found lower ones.

    As for fans over-powering a relatively weak effect from convection, yeah, agreed.
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    Steve addresses that in that GN video. His assertion, and it seems reasonable, is that top=mounted fans aren't necessarily a good idea, if front-mounted fans such air in and it promptly shoots straight out the top. Air-flow is, he points out, more complicated than that, and the solid top is deliberate.
    You could argue that the same issue arises, just rotated 90 degrees, here due to having intake fans at the bottom and that air, depending on the strength of the front fans, could just blow straight out the back. The other possibility is if the bottom fans are stronger the air would be being diverted upwards into the top of the case where the psu is and as such putting additional heat through that (not sure I'd want to do that these days).

    I'm sure fractal have done plenty of testing but personally I'd prefer an open top case, even if it's just helps with normal convection of heat from the system, purely because of the amount of time my pc's can be on 100% load due to rendering etc.

    And didn't realise we were needing to use full on physics in our comments... I'll be sure to be more scientific in my comments from now on.
    Last edited by LSG501; 19-08-2021 at 10:06 AM.

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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    You could argue that the same issue arises, just rotated 90 degrees, here due to having intake fans at the bottom and that air, depending on the strength of the front fans, could just blow straight out the back. The other possibility is if the bottom fans are stronger the air would be being diverted upwards into the top of the case where the psu is and as such putting additional heat through that (not sure I'd want to do that these days).

    I'm sure fractal have done plenty of testing but personally I'd prefer an open top case, even if it's just helps with normal convection of heat from the system, purely because of the amount of time my pc's can be on 100% load due to rendering etc.
    It won't go straight out of the back though. The front fans will cause a curved air effect from at least the two forward-most bottom fans resulting in a positive air pressure case. That'll overcome any natural convection and result in the air being passively moved out of the meshed back - and directly across the CPU and GPU which is exactly where you need it nowadays. Likewise with the PSU, even slightly warmer air won't make too much of a difference to the PSU; they're that efficient nowadays the fan's mostly a value added extra. Generally they only come on when the PSU hits a certain temperature and are at a certain load level.

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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    What I did laugh at was Steve's repeated little digs at a certain manufacturer of allegedly exploding PSU's. The line about the top of the case being fully removable to get the PSU out .... unless it's arc-welded itself to the case chassis, for example. Nice snark, Steve.
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by afiretruck View Post
    I did wonder when top-mounted PSUs would come back into fashion.
    Ive just had to build a mate a PC with some REALLY old kit, including a ridiculously old case with a top mount location for the PSU. Very nostalgic.

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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with that, but isn't that a bit .... pedantic. I mean, unless I'm missing something (which is eminently possible) then in the context of this thread subject, aren't heat and hot (or hotter than other) air the same thing?
    Nope.
    Heat does not rise, which is why GPU cooling units (water or air) are on the underside of the card instead of on top.
    Heat does not rise, which is why your legs bake and sweat when you're using a laptop, even though the cooler intake air is entering from beneath.

    If hot air rising was a factor, why would PSUs intake from the top or bottom and then exhaust sideways out the back, instead of the other way around and working with the direction of hot airflow instead of at an angle to it?
    Same question for CPU air coolers and their typically sideways airflow instead of vertical.

    In a case with absolutely zero fans, yes it may be beneficial to follow the natural path of air convection... but with even a single slow fan, that's enough to move that warm air in whichever direction you like. The trick is to get enough air transferring enough heat out of the case to run the PC as cool as possible.
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    With the PSU at the top and no vents at the top there will be a pocket of hot air around it. This is what it was like in my previous case. I always wanted to mod the case and add a top vent and fan but never got around to it. That said the Seasonic I had in there lived in the heat for about 8 years with no problems. I wouldn't recommend using a budget supply in such a situation.
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciber View Post
    With the PSU at the top and no vents at the top there will be a pocket of hot air around it. This is what it was like in my previous case. I always wanted to mod the case and add a top vent and fan but never got around to it. That said the Seasonic I had in there lived in the heat for about 8 years with no problems. I wouldn't recommend using a budget supply in such a situation.
    Those 180mm fron intake fans should be shifting a LOT of air... enough that there is no such pocket.
    Plus, you should also be able to install the PSU with air intaking from the top, to exhaust rearward and thus keeping it nicely cool.
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    ....

    Heat does not rise, which is why GPU cooling units (water or air) are on the underside of the card instead of on top.
    ....
    Or, they are there because it's preferable not to blow warm air over the CPU. Or whoever designed it thought so. Because it's better to vent hot air into the airflow out of the case, via the back. It doesn't define whether hot air rises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    ....

    Heat does not rise, which is why your legs bake and sweat when you're using a laptop, even though the cooler intake air is entering from beneath.
    ....
    Or, because there's thermal conduction too, into the case which is resting on your legs. An example of an effect is not proof of a cause. Other things are at play and nobody suggested 100% of heat movement was due to convection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post

    If hot air rising was a factor, why would PSUs intake from the top or bottom and then exhaust sideways out the back, instead of the other way around and working with the direction of hot airflow instead of at an angle to it?
    ...
    Perhaps because in an enclosed space like a PSU case where there is heat inside the PC case and a separate heat source inside the PSU case, it makes little sense to add to the heat in the PC case, and more sense to exhaust heat from the PSU directly out of the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    ....

    In a case with absolutely zero fans, yes it may be beneficial to follow the natural path of air convection... but with even a single slow fan, that's enough to move that warm air in whichever direction you like. The trick is to get enough air transferring enough heat .... sorry, hot air transporting the heat, out of the case rather than add to air temps in the PC, to keep it as cool as possible.
    As I said, fans can easily overcome a weak effect from convection.

    Again, semantics. We know the point being made was about convection, and yeah, hot air (or rather, hotter air) rises and that heat, being energy, doesn't. In the context of a thread about a case, the two are used, technically incorrectly, as synonymous. It's a case discussion, not the principles of thermodynamics.
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Those 180mm fron intake fans should be shifting a LOT of air... enough that there is no such pocket.
    Plus, you should also be able to install the PSU with air intaking from the top, to exhaust rearward and thus keeping it nicely cool.
    Yes this case has lots more fans than my old one but what about if you put all the fans to low speed or some of them off?
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    Or, they are there because it's preferable not to blow warm air over the CPU. Or whoever designed it thought so. Because it's better to vent hot air into the airflow out of the case, via the back. It doesn't define whether hot air rises.
    Except that the CPU has a cooler on the side and not on the top, and because in both cases heat is being conducted via the cooling plate. If heat rose, the plates would be on top.
    Also, we are talking about heat in this instance, not hot air and the reasons for the differences between them, but also worth noting that both components' cooling systems still do not (often) work vertically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    Or, because there's thermal conduction too, into the case which is resting on your legs. An example of an effect is not proof of a cause. Other things are at play and nobody suggested 100% of heat movement was due to convection.
    Again, heat, not hot air, and heat spreads in whatever direction it can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    Perhaps because in an enclosed space like a PSU case where there is heat inside the PC case and a separate heat source inside the PSU case, it makes little sense to add to the heat in the PC case, and more sense to exhaust heat from the PSU directly out of the case.
    And yet despite an asymmetric screw layout, you can still install a PSU to intake from the hot PC case, thus adding to its internal heat... not that it's advisable, but it remains possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    As I said, fans can easily overcome a weak effect from convection.
    Fans are what create the convection. Until that point, it's mostly just water or copper conducting heat to the heat exchangers, and only a difference in the temperature of the surrounding air that provides much exchange. That the fans are blowing warm air through the fins/rad/heatsink is less important than that heat exiting the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    Again, semantics. We know the point being made was about convection, and yeah, hot air (or rather, hotter air) rises and that heat, being energy, doesn't. In the context of a thread about a case, the two are used, technically incorrectly, as synonymous. It's a case discussion, not the principles of thermodynamics.
    It's more about the application of those thermodynamic principles, with only the most basic of understanding. You don't really need to even understand the why, you just have to know the what - It's like knowing that loop order doesn't matter... knowing why can help, but simply knowing it is enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciber View Post
    Yes this case has lots more fans than my old one but what about if you put all the fans to low speed or some of them off?
    So long as they are still turning, air is moving and such a pocket should not form.
    The front 180s probably move a lot more air at lower revs than smaller fans at higher revs anyway, possibly even to the point where you wouldn't need any others. Turning them off will obviously stop airflow, as with any other case, but similarly that is the point of such things... Not sure what you're getting at with that. It's like asking what happens if I turn off all 10 of my rad fans and just have the one exhaust at the back.
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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    It may well be, but while I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, in my eye at least, the appearance of that case gives it a perfect face .... for radio.

    I guess if push coms to shove and I couldn't find a case with good airflow that I actually liked the style of, I might grit my teeth and buy on functionality but to my taste, it's just butt-ugly.

    Steve addresses that in that GN video. His assertion, and it seems reasonable, is that top=mounted fans aren't necessarily a good idea, if front-mounted fans such air in and it promptly shoots straight out the top. Air-flow is, he points out, more complicated than that, and the solid top is deliberate.

    It does also mean I can go back to putting things on top of the case, like my barcode reader. It's still ugly, though.
    Well considering both my SFF cases,will probably fit in the case,with room to spare its unlikely I am getting one either!

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    Re: Fractal Design Torrent

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael H View Post
    I like the vented rear, but do feel an inverted variant would be even better.

    Plus you don't really want glass behind the motherboard tray, one glass panel and one solid please.
    I have a Silverstone FT-02 which is exactly like that.

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