Installing Solar_cells

[peterb]

<---snip

...not long ago (3/4 months) had company representative come to our property to have a chat. I live in a privately rented flat in the middle(ish) of Newcastle and apparently the roof is the source of some pretty weird situations between landlords, the Council and the ownership of the roof (I didn't really get it but my father-in-law knew what we meant)

The summary of it was the council were performing initial surveys of current residents and their landlords to see if they could install solar panels down the entire street. The agreement would stand as follows:

The landlord/tenant pays nothing to the installation or maintenance of the panels.
The panels remain the property of the installation company at all times.
The tenant gets 'first use' of the power produced by the the panels.
The right to benefit derived from the feed in tariff is surrendered to the panel owner.

It was an interesting one and I couldn't see any immediate reasons to outright refuse it so we provided a pretty positive response to the suggestion but we've heard squat of it since.

Admittedly, we wouldn't see a massive benefit in the winter as me and my girlfriends annual bill for gas and electric is pretty low, circa £550 with it being more electricity than gas, and most of that is after the hours of 7pm and before 8am, as we are both out of the house from during the day . With the small flat we only have space for one under counter unit so it has to be a washer dryer and we find ourself putting loads on over the night (my sleeping pattern is so poor I normally do a load of washing in the middle of the night as well so we can do 2 loads a night!). This obviously is the largest single contributor to our electricity bill.

I think being realistic we could save maybe £60 - £80 if we try and change our life style but any more savings would probably require further investment from ourselves. But I do think this is a situation that really benefits a certain lifestyle. In the next 9 - 12 months we could both be working from our home and in which case I would imagine our electricity and gas usage go up but we would be better placed to efficiently run our requirements from the panels if they were installed.

I'll keep people posted if this goes any further but I wonder if people have heard of similar schemes?

Yes, its called rent-a-roof and it was touted to private home owners about three years ago to reduce costs. It wasn't very popular as it could make selling the house tricky as the lease arrangement for the roof space had to be transferred to the new owner. As the feed-in tariff has decreased in value, the scheme has become less attractive to those promoting it.

However, it does make more sense for rented properties where ownership might be for a longer period of time, particularly if the owner is the council. In your case it sounds like a company looking to economise on scale, but it may be that the reduction in FiT has rendered it uneconomic for them, or perhaps some private landlords didn't agree.

[badass]

I was reading this thread and vaguely remembered reading that solar panels use more energy to produce than they will ever pay back in energy generated.

It turns out I wasn't imagining it. http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...icity-they-use

However that is no longer true. In fact modern solar panels have paid their "energy debt" within 3-4 years of use and the entire industry will have paid its energy debt by 2020.

I know the laissez-faire capitalists amongst us believe all government intervention results in disaster but this is a good example of where government intervention has been positive. Solar panels would not have been popular enough to get those costs (energy and monetary)down so quickly without subsidies.

[peterb]

I was reading this thread and vaguely remembered reading that solar panels use more energy to produce than they will ever pay back in energy generated.

It turns out I wasn't imagining it. http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...icity-they-use

However that is no longer true. In fact modern solar panels have paid their "energy debt" within 3-4 years of use and the entire industry will have paid its energy debt by 2020.

I know the laissez-faire capitalists amongst us believe all government intervention results in disaster but this is a good example of where government intervention has been positive. Solar panels would not have been popular enough to get those costs (energy and monetary)down so quickly without subsidies.

Very true. Governments have (or should have) a very important role in kick starting new industries or processes. The FIT has been very good at starting the solar industry, and in subsidising initial costs. Solar panels are less expensive now than 5 years ago, and as the subsidies reduce,nth at should drive installation costs down.

Personally, I'd like to see the generation value reduce, but the true 'feed in' element increase, so you benefit from the power you generate in reduced bills, but sell surplus back at a higher rate.

The same kick starting process applies to electric cars, with the Government incentive there.

[aramil]

Very true. Governments have (or should have) a very important role in kick starting new industries or processes. The FIT has been very good at starting the solar industry, and in subsidising initial costs. Solar panels are less expensive now than 5 years ago, and as the subsidies reduce,nth at should drive installation costs down.
*snip*

I have to ask why you think a Goverment we all pay to should pay an company to do business, ie I have a great idea but it will not be a viable business for 10 years so i think the tax payer should pay for it..... where else should this logic be applied? steel /coal/ bob down the road who might save the world with an app.....etc?

Why should all tax payers have to have some of there money used so that a minority of people can install equiptment (they cannot normally afford) and then be guarenteed an income (again subed by my money) and have the generation taken off their personnal bill, surely it should be collated as a whole and spread between all taxpayers as they forked up the cash and continue to sub the price paid.

Having it setup as is now means the poorest pay the most for their energy as they most likely rent or cannot afford even the subed price for this scheme.

Simple rules of business, make something that works well in all circumstances and is mainstream affordable and you have a business model to invest in, or go bust.

The same kick starting process applies to electric cars, with the Government incentive there.

Again same logic applies when you have a product that is effective at replacing a mainstream family car for a price poeple are willing to pay your onto a winner, but expecting tax payers to throw cash at you until it happens,,,, crazy.

As for the "but it helpped drive down production costs (energy & monetary)", so does having a good working product that people want & can afford, nothing that would not of happened over a longer time.

I would rather they dumpped all this industry interfeing/Paying over the odds to people for generating elec, & put the cash into health/education/infrasturture/security.

Want to make cleaner energy/car..etc fine do what every other company has to, prove it works to investors. Free handouts for the few so that Mr/Mrs goverment can say they are doing their part (while wasting tax payers money on a market that at the moment is not sustainable (see all folding green energy installers etc)) just a waste.

[peterb]

Because the long term benefit is for the public good. The telephone is a good example, initially Government run (although like most nationalised industries, subsequently under invested in)

The internet is another, initially a Government (US) funded research programme.

Computing is another example (although driven by the Second World War).

The National grid...

All things that long term are of benefit to all but where in initial investment costs/risk might deter private enterprise.

However, this is getting off the original topic, so if you would like to start a topic about Government vs Private investment in GD, then please do so

(Or I can move these two posts for you to er 'kick start' it)

[peterb]

Just submitted my FIT readings for the three months from September to December.

Slightly down on last year, 436kWh as opposed to 472kWh last year, probably because the skies have been particularly overcast during December with lots of rain. However, the mild weather has also reduced my gas heating bill, so not all bad, and my monthly energy bill has been reduced again.

My energy consumption is probably as low as I can get it without replacing the old heating boiler with a more modern condensing version (capital outlay and increased maintenance costs) or better insulated windows - triple glazing would be a significant improvement of the 4mm double glazed units currently installed, but again it comes back to RoI. And with all home improvements how much does it add to the capital value of the house, although increased comfort is an important factor!

[PorcupineTime]

Interesting, thread, I've just had a read through of all of it. Thanks Peter for your contributions and openness.

For those of us interested in PV and all that jazz right now, where would you recommend getting information for those sums we should be doing?

We'll be moving house in the start of the new year and I am interested to see if whacking some panels on the roof could be a good idea for us.

[1stRaven]

Strangely, just submitted my reading as well today. Looking forward to the middle of Feb where we will have a year's worth of records to look at.

[peterb]

Interesting, thread, I've just had a read through of all of it. Thanks Peter for your contributions and openness.

For those of us interested in PV and all that jazz right now, where would you recommend getting information for those sums we should be doing?

We'll be moving house in the start of the new year and I am interested to see if whacking some panels on the roof could be a good idea for us.

These would be good places to start:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...-tariff-scheme

http://www.fitariffs.co.uk

To get the FiT the system must be installed by a registered installer who will generally carry out a survey and give a projected estimate of your annual generation capacity.

[directhex]

Just submitted my FIT readings for the three months from September to December.

Slightly down on last year, 436kWh as opposed to 472kWh last year

Interestingly, that's about the same power I consumed driving my car around in the same time period (I got a power point on Sept 3rd, with a dedicated meter)

[PorcupineTime]

These would be good places to start:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...-tariff-scheme

http://www.fitariffs.co.uk

To get the FiT the system must be installed by a registered installer who will generally carry out a survey and give a projected estimate of your annual generation capacity.

Thanks Peter, I'll have a snoop.

Interestingly, that's about the same power I consumed driving my car around in the same time period (I got a power point on Sept 3rd, with a dedicated meter)

As I'm already interested in an electric car, this is a very interesting point. You're saying that I could get an electric car and it would effectively be free because it would run off the sun?! Right? That's what you're saying, yes?

Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of my wallet emptying.

[Noxvayl]

Thanks Peter, I'll have a snoop.



As I'm already interested in an electric car, this is a very interesting point. You're saying that I could get an electric car and it would effectively be free because it would run off the sun?! Right? That's what you're saying, yes?

Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of my wallet emptying.

I plan to make my first ever new car purchase be the Tesla Model 3... After that I need a house and some solar panels and I'll be off grid baby

Currently driving a Honda Jazz, most reliable car on the road in the UK but so damn noisy inside. I have a love/hate relationship with it but it fits a full Webber BBQ in the back without me having to take the legs off so it is amazing for moving stuff around. Just horrible to drive...

I'm off topic here but yeah, my wallet is empty already as a student... I can dream though

[peterb]

Thanks Peter, I'll have a snoop.



As I'm already interested in an electric car, this is a very interesting point. You're saying that I could get an electric car and it would effectively be free because it would run off the sun?! Right? That's what you're saying, yes?

Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of my wallet emptying.

The challenge is using the power generated efficiently. As I mentioned early in the thread, if the panels are generating 2 kW, then it makes sense to limit the load to the power generated so you would (for example) run a washing machine taking 2kW then a dishwasher, running 2kW, rather than run both appliances at the same time. (those figures are only for illustration). So while the solar cells would reduce the grid consumption for charging an electric car, unless you had a large array (which affects the FiT) then you may still be using grid power. And of course, most electric car users will charge overnight, when there is no sunshine.

However, industrial complexes where the FiT rules are different, using solar cells to provide power for employees' car charging may be an option. (Not sure what the tax position would be though )

[PorcupineTime]

Don't come in here, to your own thread, with FACTS peter. That's not what I want to hear right now.

[peterb]

Don't come in here, to your own thread, with FACTS peter. That's not what I want to hear right now.

You are in the wrong forum then!

[DR]

So some updates from us.

We had our system installed in 18th September 2015

We have 40*300W Panels (LG) - 12KW system on the roof and it's been interesting the data which we collate from it.

So far we have generated: Total: 1483.21 kWh

The best day we've had so far is October 2nd where we did 46kWh in one day.

October we did 575.59kWh in total.

So it's working, just can't wait for the summer.