proposed pc specs

[windog]

Thanks Austin
My reason for going for the higher spec mobo was not so much my usage now but to in some small way "future proof" the system, knowing at this stage I can at some time in the future (when every body else is running 10Ghz processors!) upgrade to 3200 and beyond and the difference seems to be only about £15 to £20
The choice of case is something I am looking at. I thought that the fact that the psu was effectively free it might comment on its possible performance! and probably it was a bit small, but I did like the sliding door on this case to hide my computer beige CD drv
I take your comments on the gfx cards
Re memory I was originally looking at 1 512mb stick and to add the second at a later date esp if I got into dig photo enhancement
but I started to get worried about the memmory compatability issues with this board and wondered wether I should buy a "matched pair "to start

Windog

[Spud1]

Well tbh i think there is very little difference between all the nforce2 ultra mobo's, they all have the same chipset and perform similarly

the main reasons i chose MSI's were its price, reported reliability, the 'stuff that is in the box' and that i've had great MSI boards in the past

the main rival at the time i bought it was the Asis deluxe board, i had 2 of these and both were RMA'd as they corrupted their own bios's, its a common fault so i steered clear of it. I've had no trouble with my MSI, its great

I suppose there is no real difference between it and teh Abit, just personal preference but I would say MSI. You get rounded cables in the box and the mobo has fans on its chips - unlike the Asus (not sure about the Abit)

The MSI is also a good allrounder - you have to look at what you want out of the PC. The Abit may be supream at overclocking (so i hear) but if your not really interested then why bother paying the extra...the MSI lets you overclock easily enough if you want to

and just to confirm about your memory, PC2700 is all you need unless your gonna overclock, it mite be worth payin the extra £5 or so for 3200 as a bit of future proofing tho. And with an Nforce2 board matched pairs are a good idea as you can use them in dual channal mode; and as you know the nforce2 boards can be picky about memory, especially if you mix brands

[Austin]

Future-proof and SktA don't really go together, XP3200+ is likely to be all that SktA gets, a worthy upgrade sure, and should be cheap in the future too. Since Intel change their chipsets and sockets so often I don't suppose the Skt478 800FSB P4 is likely to offer FP much more anyway, at least SktA offers excellent value for money!

If you're on a very tight budget then a free PSU should be fine, you can always get a better one a little later. If your budget can stretch then I would rec at least a 350W PSU from a decent manu. Things you should be looking for in a case is ventilation esp around the case fan mounts. The vents should ideally be at the bottom front but on the side of the case is okay too. You should look for case fan mounts at the bottom front (if there's ventilation there) and at the rear close to where the CPU is, vents or mounts at the top is also pretty nice.

You could easily get 1 stick of 512MB now but as you say you should ideally get 2 sticks of exactly the same brand and rated RAM when running Dual Channel, no need for matched pairs though. You should find 1x512MB will sell on well when the time comes for 2x512MB though, the same can't be said for 2x256MB. The gains in SktA in Dual Channel mode are only 3-5% so nothing you'll really miss that much. Obviously you could get a nonDC nForce2 or other chipset (KT400, KT600, SiS746FX, SiS748) and simply skip Dual Channel altogether as it really isn't needed on SktA anyway. That way you could buy 1x512MB now and easily add another stick a little later (all mobos should be fine with 2 sticks of PC3200 AFAIK but check). PC3200 costs so little extra and works happily as PC2700 anyway so don't buy less.

Manu does make little diff, chipset is most important so look at prices and decide. Having a fan on the northbridge of your mobo is unecessary and overly noisy (small fast fans are awful). 400FSB is easily achievable even with a relatively small HS.

[acidrainy]

Originally posted by Austin
Manu does make little diff, chipset is most important so look at prices and decide. Having a fan on the northbridge of your mobo is unecessary and overly noisy (small fast fans are awful). 400FSB is easily achievable even with a relatively small HS.

In Relation to this.... I'm thinking of swapping my active cooling out for a zalman chipset HS, anyone used this?
Is it as Stable?

[chrisf6969]

Socket A is going to be around another year (if not longer)!! Opeteron/Athlon64 are mostly going to be very high end computers the next 6 months. And AMD knows they can only sell so many of those.

Wanting a value system and something future proof is going to be conflicting.

But I think you're right in getting an Nforce2 Ultra 400 mobo, so later on you can at least upgrade to an AthlonXP 3200+ when they're cheaper. The integrated graphics do suck compared to most geeks dream machines on here,(myself included) but are sufficient for MANY PEOPLE(probably yourself included).

If you feel you need more graphics power, the GF4ti4200 is the best value card EVER. Its as fast at the 9500/9600/5600 etc.. at normal resolutions with out Anti-Aliasing,etc. And would probably last your 2 years or more. You don't need 128Mb, 64Mb is fine for your system. You only need it on system if you're playing at 1600x1200 resolution with AA on, etc.... I know many average users like yourself, THEY LOVE THE 4200. They don't even know how to play games at any other resolution besides the default in game. LOL much less at 1600x1200 with AA.

You can get them as cheap as $80 US. You may want to opt for one with VIVO (Video In/Video Out) but most people I know use the firewire port for their input(much better quality).
Everything else you started with original was decent and Tig's suggestions were good too.

You can always start out with the Integrated (motherboard) graphics and if you find your games are stuttering upgrade. If its immediately I'd recommend at Ti4200, if its down the road.... you need to come back & ask again b/c prices/values are always changing.

P.S. as for memory I'd get PC3200/DDR400 (future proof) so you can run a 400FSB processor with DDR400. You don't need to get a "matched pair". Just 2 of the same brand, same size, same model will be fine.

[Austin]

acidrainy yes and yes. Abit NF7-S v2.0 nForce2 working happily at 400FSB and also successful with a Gigabyte 7VAX KT400. Both of these had those needlessly noisy active cooling, even a small HS is enough for the 333FSB mobos like the KT400 above. I think www.dabs.com was the cheapest and delivery is often next day (even the std one), orders under £30 ex carry only a £1.50+ delivery charge too!

See what the price diffs are between the mobos ... SiS748, KT600 and nForce2 IGP/400 (ie non Ultra) should all handle 400FSB and XP3200+ and should be a fair bit cheaper than nForce2 Ultra400 which only has Dual Channel DDR that you'd notice and that's 'only' good for a 3-5% perf boost anyway (plus it needs 2 sticks of RAM which are usually a little pricier than 1). SiS748 are very good if you don't need tweaking etc, KT600 are the middle ground and any nForce2 should be good tweakers mobos if you are likely to pursue that in the future.

I would agree both that nForce2 IGP (Integrated Gfx, ie GF4MX / GF2) are abysmal AND that they may suffice, at least in the short term. The GF4TI4200 is a superb option, only the DX9 games will kill it and they're still 6-12 months away really. I would strongly urge you to get 128MB on the gfx card though, 64MB hurts perf in far more than just high res with AA and the perf hit when you do run out of gfx RAM is large. Plus it only costs an extra £10 or so anyway, and it will sell on much better too!

[TiG]

If the intergrated graphics are soo abysmal, how at Lan events i go to can my shuttle with an intergrated graphics chip and me piloting it own so many people at games like BF1942?, surely i shouldn't be able to?.

Shock horror you don't need to have anything like a fx5200 or anything above this to play 90% of games on the market. Only if you want to play doom3, unreal tournament do you need anything like what power is available. Sure people may quote they can do 430fps in Quake3, but the game usually stops trying at 90fps, tho i believe 110fps is best for game playing, for whatever reason you can circle jump better at this speed.

And yes my igp on my shuttle gives me something stupid like 250fps on quake3 in 1024x768 in 16bit colour. More than enough for me.

I don't do AA or AF i have to say but then again, i doubt most people know how to really make use of it.

and Austin PLEASE don't seperate paragraphs with smileys it really gets on my nerves.

TiG

[Austin]

Sorry TiG but I can use smileys however I like, most people find it amusing and quirky ... others find it irritating but is it really that big a deal? Anyway it's not like I'm using words like Atherlon is it?

The integrated gfx in the nForce2 are GF4MX420 if you lack Dual Channel ability and GF4MX440 if you have it. This is basicly GF2mx400-to-GTS and GF2TI-to-ultra type speed levels respectively. DX7 is becoming very limiting and considering the low prices of DX8 (or even DX9) capable kit it makes little sense in opting for one, esp if buying now as opposed to 6-12 months back. nForce2 have about the best integrated gfx but it is very old. More than fine for simple 2D but when it comes to gaming it is very poor, still what you find playable is your own choice I just have a hard time rec'ing it. QuakeIII is ancient now too, if that's as much as you want to play then GF4mx is fine. I did say it may suffice but I'd seriously suggest a KT600 or SiS748 with a budget card than nForce2 with IGP. Oh yeah, and a GF4MX440 can be had for £30 now too so largely negates bothering with IGP.

Using 16bit colour even on GF2/4MX level hw is pretty pointless, the architecture along with most remotely modern games are designed for 32bit and it's more than possible to actually hurt performance by using 16bit even on 'old' hw.

There's plenty of people who don't bother with / understand AA or AF ... that's a big reason for nVidia's 'Texture Sharpening' tick box which simply applies one more level of AF than is already selected. But then we're not really talking about Rad9600pro or GF-FX5600ultra hw which is where AA+AF really become very useable anyway.

[Howard]

I disagree with all these people saying don't buy from Ebuyer

They're a good company, I have no problems with their customer service and their goods are cheap. Why complain?

[Spud1]

Any FPS above your refresh rate is wasted as your eyes can't tract it... really high FPS's only act like a benchmark tbh

[steve threlfall]

Originally posted by Howard
I disagree with all these people saying don't buy from Ebuyer

They're a good company, I have no problems with their customer service and their goods are cheap. Why complain?

yes another one for ebugger.. i mean ebuyer here

they are ace the only problem was the rma system which has now been sorted.

[TiG]

I'm not arguing points on what you are saying Austin, but i do try and keep it relevant to the person asking, as I remember Windog's on a budget, he's not a big gamer and sounds like he want to do fairly standard computer processing (typically not dx8 or 9 gamer from the sounds of things)

The simple fact is a gf2 would be fine. But the intergrated graphics at the moment will be fine, and will give windog the future proof option if indeed he wants to buy an AIW for the tv/video capture stuff talked about in the other thread.

Your posts are usually all very technically astute austin, maybe this isn't your problem.

TiG

[windog]

Now now boys don't go arguing over lil' ol' me !

TiG you are quite correct and I do understand exactly where you are coming from that was evident from the questions you asked in the first place and I apreciate that what you are saying is aimed directly at me and my requirements.

I have to admit when I began to ask Questions I was starting from the standpoint that the replies I was going to recieve were going to be in the main from dedicated gamers and techheads (though to me thats someone who can use a calculator!) and I was expecting to look at all the anwers critically in this light. Please dont get me wrong I welcome the replies that take me to the next level of understanding, it might not be something I include in my first system but it does meen I am learning something !

Thanks for all your input

Windog

[Austin]

Ebuyer are the ONLY company I have ever heard repeatedly bad stuff about, and sometimes very bad stuff. All co's make mistakes or give poor service at some point and it is very easy for online co's to cover their mistakes or ignore the odd user. The ONLY co I advise people don't deal with is Ebuyer and that's from many diff people's experience ... cheap but you pay the price soon after is how I've seen it. However I haven't dealt with them for well over a year and things could have changed ... but I have definitely been put off them for life.

I understand your point TiG, as I mentioned originally GF2/GF4MX would probably suffice and it is a cheap solution. I still find it hard to rec an nForce2 ultra400 to someone esp when a 'lesser' non-techie mobo would allow them to have loads more gaming potential by spending that cash on a seperate gfx card, at least to get DX8. It may only cost £20 more for nForce2 IGP vs nForce2 minus IGP but not only does it limit your mobo choice but a seperate gfx card of the same or higher ability only costs £30 or so anyway. No right or wrong, just trying to make my point clear.

When trying to answer a person's post it is normal for other issues and subjects to crop up but it is also important to rem that many other people view the post for information if not to help so I like to give not only specific advice/opinion but weigh up other options too and always give a little reason too ... that really helps the noobs.

[Austin]

Originally posted by Spud1
Any FPS above your refresh rate is wasted as your eyes can't tract it... really high FPS's only act like a benchmark tbh

I can't believe I missed that point! There are plenty of gains by going above the refresh rate and the human eye can comprehend a LOT more than you may think too, like 200+FPS on a low refresh rate. You can test this to a degree by enabling VSYNC which basicly ensures each frame is rendered to match each monitor refresh cycle. With VSYNC on even with a high refresh rate you should find the game simply seems less responsive. Sure you rid yourself of the horizontal tearing but the benefits of multiple frames per monitor refresh is certainly comprehendable though dependent upon the individual and particular game in question. Here's a little info and proggies, give them a try...

http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html

http://www.daniele.ch/school/30vs60/30vs60_1.html

http://www.3dgpu.com/files/misc/fpscmp02.zip

http://www.marky.com/files/dos/motion.zip