Help needed with getting a good budget PC which has room for future upgrades.

[Kumagoro]

I have a friend whose computer I built 10 years ago which seems to have died right at the wrong time to be buying a new computer, if you ask me.

So based on what I know and have read here and elsewhere in the past (although pretty superficially, seeing as I had no intention of getting a new one) A Ryzen 5600X seemed to be the sweet spot to build something around. However when I spec something up it is coming to £1400 from what I would consider not a particularly high spec machine. Computers really have gone up to ridiculous prices in my opinion. Reminds me of Sony and their RX100 cameras.... release new model price goes up and old one doesn't go down....

The old machine is an Phenom II 6 core with about 8 or 16GB of RAM and the only taxing thing it did was run Ableton which from the sound of it had no problems for what he did with it. I haven't been able to get much in the way of info about if it couldn't do anything he wanted to do well though.

My basic spec, considering 5-6 years down the road picking up a 5900X-50X, was 5600X, X570 mobo, 32GB of 2x16GB 3600Mhz RAM, Black Rock 4 HSF, budget GPU 1650 for example, 970 Evo Plus 1TB, An alright 650W PSU.


However now I am thinking that actually he should get the cheap Ryzen 5 3600 and get the rest with the thought of getting more in the future and try and convince him to reuse his AMD RX 460 which is more than up to the job he needs it for. What I am not sure about is the following.

I'm assuming that there will there be a newer Ryzen out on the current platform before the DDR 5 stuff arrives which will be compatible with current motherboards. In my mind if there will be, then more reason to go budget now with more power coming than is available now when it is time to upgrade on the cheap.

So in line with that my thoughts are around which motherboard chipset and RAM speed is worth investing in. Is a B550 good enough for running a 5950x at stock? This thing is unlikely to ever be overclocked, or loaded with stacks of drives or need 2.5Gb or 10gb network. The only thing my friend would be interested in is if the onboard Audio is supposed to be significantly and usefully better. Other than there being a higher probability of an X570 supporting a future high end CPU I am not sure if there is any tangible benefits for the increase in money.

When it comes to RAM getting 3600Mhz seems like a wise investment considering the likely hood of AMD upping it there on future ones. Also getting 32GB of RAM 2x16GB might as well be had now rather than mixing and matching latter.

Then there is the PSU what wattage would comfortable run a top end CPU considering that it is never likely to have a GPU of any power in it? 650W seems to me like a good bit of head room.

Considering the likely long use of the machine AIO watercoolers don't seem like a wise choice with the pump likely to fail. There doesn't seem to be much in the way choice on prebuilt places with what you can have HSF wise.

The other option is to get a budget machine which just has what it needs now and get another similar budget machine in 6-7 years time.

There is also something else which I am unsure of which is that considering that pretty much CPU's overclock themselves nowadays are the CPU's now limited processing wise via TDP rather than headline frequencies. I know they are in laptops but I have looked if that is what is going on in desktop CPU's nowadays. If it is then it all get a bit more complicated and annoying... I just saw there is a Ryzen 3500X so I'm wondering what's what.


Other then SCAN, PC specialist are there any recommended box builders out there with good options?

[Kumagoro]

I ended up playing around on a few pc builder websites and it seems with a bit of reuse of GPU, SSD and windows. He could get one around £500 which is more reasonable.

It would appear Ableton is good with 8 GB so 16 GB seems more sensible and 32 GB being overkill. So that shaved off quite a bit. Also it seems hyper threading doesn't work well people seem to have reported so going 3500X if available knocks it down.

It mostly comes down to motherboard and PSU. PSU wise I don't seem to see much about them like in the past so what is considered good or not nowadays I don't know. The old one was a budgetish one that did 10 years good service at least.

As the game has changed a little bit I'm not sure where the level is price wise for something which should run the top chip comfortably but not over kill. Is there much to consider other than the number of vrms? What is the sweet spot value/quality wise?

Through looking at a lot of pc builders I still don't like them much, too limited for my liking. PC specialist was going great with customisation with no GPU or SSD but then when it comes to hear sink and fan it seems to be the hyper 212 or AIOs... not much motherboard choice price wise or ram selection as well.

This is probably why I ended building it for him last time.

[Pob255]

budget GPU 1650 for example

good joke there!
Reuse if you've got one is the best advice that or onboard if you can get away with it.
You could look at intel, while the AMD overinflated prices are coming down they still seem a bit high, which have made intel 10series and 9series(if you can find them new) cheaper and may well be better bang-for-buck

Prebuilds are a good option esp for a gpu as they are not as over inflated atm

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The Ryzen 5 5600X is extremely poor value,especially since its essential streetprice is now over £300. AMD massively jacked up pricing with Zen3. In terms of TDP and cooler provided,the Ryzen 5 5600X is really a Ryzen 5 3600 replacement,but AMD realistically increased the RRP by nearly £100.

My main concern is with Intel still stuck at 8~10 cores,and with ADL only having 8 full sized cores(and 8 smaller ones),the 12 and 16 core Zen3 parts might not drop that much in price,especially if they are the last high end parts for the DDR4 AM4 platform. Unless AMD does a hybrid DDR4/DDR5 Zen3+ or Zen4,this is the last hurrah for AM4.

In terms of value for money,something like a Core i5 10400F/Core i5 11400F/Core i5 11600KF/Core I7 10700F with a B560 motherboard is simply better value than a Ryzen 5 3600 and a B550 motherboard,and then replace the CPU/motherboard/RAM sooner rather than later. Hopefully in 4~5 years time an 8~12 core CPU will end up where the 6 core CPUs are here now. Even if CFL/RKL can't quite beat Zen3,they are certainly better in games than Zen2. Looking at the Gamersnexus review of the Core i5 11600K,there are even games where CFL can match or beat Zen3,because of a lack of optimisations(stuff such as RDR2).

Just a week or so ago,I managed to pick up a 6C/12T Core i5 10400F for around £100 with a £65 B460 mini-ITX motherboard for a secondary system. AMD isn't that great value now for a mainstream buyer IMHO.

I also second looking at a prebuilt too,as its one of the cheaper ways to get a GPU and so is a gaming laptop!

[pp05]

Figure out how he will use it and go from there.

If there are parts you can reuse particularly case+psu+ssd then that will already 150-200gbp.

[Kumagoro]

Thanks for the replies.

The current broken one is an AM2+ board I believe so it did work out pretty well. He originally had 3 core chip and upgraded to a 6 core 1090 or 1100 about 3 to 4 years ago now for 50 quid. Based on the last few years I am wondering just how much the top of the range chips from now and the next zen3+ chips will drop in 6 or so years. Seeing as how well many chips have held their price in the last 5 or more years, well Intel wise.

I did think that Intel may be better value at this level however I am a bit of an AMD supporter and try to their them money as long as the product is still good. I haven't tried speccing up an intel one, so really I should for research purposes.

Having it built is less responsibility for me, I got lucky that it was rock solid all that time and never had to do anything myself other than the CPU upgrade, my friend upped the ram, replaced the GPU when it started to play up and fit an SSD. This time I can't be bothered with it potentially being defective at the start and I have no spares to test something that new. Although the pull to make something myself as good as I can is strong. So prebuilt is more about convenience,

I don't think any gaming will be done I have mentioned it and he had said nothing. I think it is just web browsing, some office work and the only taxing thing is using Ableton Live and maybe Cubase.

The struggle is what motherboards are good enough. I have pretty much settled on B550 if it does end up being AMD. At the moment it is likely to be the TUF with wi-fi but it seems s bit on the expensive side for a stock frequency machine.

The power supply I think I could drop to a 550W considering the lack of significant gpu. I just would prefer it to have the connections to power something if ever need be. Which brands are rated well these days I don't know and I'm not clued up on which takes to stay away from.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Unless AMD has a Zen3+ or Zen4 which can work in socket AM4,then the next AMD CPUs will be AM5 and use DDR5. So according to current roadmaps,AM4 is now at the end of its cycle.

I also really can't recommend AMD at its current pricing for a gaming or even a general purpose build,especially a normal sized one. Just like in the Athlon 64 days,when they were on top they jacked up prices,and then didn't bother with mainstream buyers as much,who got hobbled CPUs. Now AMD wants to be the premium brand,they are frequently worse value for money now than Intel and even Nvidia in many cases over the last few years. This is not the AMD of old.

Until Intel can have a CPU which competes with the Ryzen 9 5900X and Ryzen 9 5950X then prices are going to be high for a while. An upgrade path is only worth it if the CPUs are decent value. Honestly IMHO,it would be better to just get a new platform at that point.

Upto £300 is all Zen2,which is worse core for core in gaming than Intel CFL,CNL and RKL. The issue is not only are many games optimised for Intel,but before Zen3 the dual CCX design did have some latency issues which didn't help. Even then some games such as RDR2 and CB2077 for example do quite well on Intel,even relative to Zen3! So a 6C Zen2 CPU will probably run out of steam quicker than a 6C CFL/CNL/RKL CPU.

Then when it comes to stuff as Photoshop or audio stuff,Zen2 is not bad but Intel CFL/CNL/RKL edges ahead.

Even Hardware Unboxed/Techspot now have recommended Intel:

If both CPUs were available at their MSRP, then the 5600X would be the obvious choice as it’s faster and more efficient, plus it's supported on a wider range of motherboards. But at today’s prices we’d get the 11600K. Actually no, what we’d do is forget both the 5600X and 11600K and just get the outgoing 10600K, or even better the 10600KF.

The Core i5-10600K is $224 and the 10600KF model (no graphics) posing an even more attractive proposition at $200. Those 35% savings could then go into something else, especially if your focus is gaming. If you’re in need of a CPU upgrade today and have a budget between $200 and $300, the Core i5-10600KF is a cracking good CPU for the money.

The Core i5 10400F with 3200MHZ RAM(using a B560 motherboard) is cheaper and quicker than a Ryzen 5 3600. Remember all the negativity about the Core i5 10400/10400F was because only the Z490 could run RAM at XMP,whereas B560 also now does it. The Core i5 11400F adds PCI-E 4.0,and is most likely going to be quicker too.

If I was doing a mainstream build now - I would suggest the Core i5 10400F/11400F/10600KF now,and if you want some longevity a Core i7 10700F as it is 8C.

Also if you go for the none F parts,you also get an IGP which is useful too. Also things such as power consumption are only truly poor on the K parts or if you overclock. The non-K parts are mostly fine,especially the 6C ones(unless you really want a small SFF PC).

[DanceswithUnix]

I think if you aren't gaming or doing something particularly FPU heavy lifting then the 5600X doesn't make much sense.

An FX-6350 to a Ryzen 3600 would be a fair increase, and for music use the fans would be easy to tame. B550 gets you the option of a really quick NVMe SSD in the future, though frankly the WD Black SN750 I picked up last was such good value I think we are a while off PCIe4 ones being worth the money.

B550 boards tend to have pretty good VRMs, as long as you don't go so cheap that there aren't any heatsinks on it. Even then with good enough airflow even the cheap B550 boards will run a 5950X should you ever want to as long as you aren't overclocking.

From everything you have said, I would go B550 with a 3600.

The wife's recent PC upgrade I went for this motherboard which seemed a decent price point: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-TUF-B5...dp/B089HDJS79/

The sound chip is OK (she listens to a lot of stuff through some nice Sennheiser headphones) and it can soak up the forest of USB connections that machines accumulate these days.

Actually sounds like a 4000 series APU would be a decent choice, shame you can't buy the things.

[Pob255]

From scan
Core i5 10400F £125
A decent B460 motherboard is £100 (MSI MAG Torpedo or Asus TUF)

Question is a good B560 (£150) worth it over a good B460 (£100) on a non-overclocking cpu? esp as that £50 can be put towards ram
you lose pc-e gen4 for pci-e gen3, but from what I've seen there's no real meaningful difference, every test/review I've seen comparing gen3 vs gen4 ssd's show that gen4 is faster but not in any meaningful way eg game loading times go from 11sec to 10sec, windows cold boot time goes from 35 to 33 seconds https://techteamgb.co.uk/2019/09/27/...en-3-nvme-ssd/ https://www.techspot.com/review/1893...vs-pcie-3-ssd/ https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/stora...sd-1tb/?page=4
Gen 4 ssd's get great synthetic numbers but real use numbers are not much greater

edit: 2x8gb DDR4 3600 cas18 is £87
2x16gb ddr4 3600 cas18 is £185

So just over £300 for a 10400f + b460 + 16gb ram
add £50 for a b560
add £100 for 2x16gb or £87 for 4x8gb

edit2: correction all the b460 are currently listed as "pre-order"
also ram for these should be 2666mhz as that's what's supported on the non K cpu's

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The B460 can't run RAM at higher than 2666MHZ for non-K series parts,and B560 can. Also because the Core i5 65W TDP models are more efficient,and you can't overclock a £100 B560/H570 motherboard should be fine IMHO:
https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer...3264/3266/3267

Edit!!

This motherboard doesn't look too bad:
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/asro...gen2-micro-atx

Also B560 can only run the PCI-E slot at PCI-E 4.0 speeds - the H570 enables the M2 NVME slot to use PCI-E 4.0 too AFAIK.

[Pob255]

I did spot that about the ram, which is good as 2666mhz is CAS16 and 32gb is slightly at £178

I'm still wondering why go for a b560 or H570 over a B460 which is cheaper? the only difference I can see is pci-e gen4 which is meaningless except in synthetic benchmarks.
I'll grant you that 5 years later if you upgrade graphics and sdd it might have a difference, but even then it'll be tiny, your cpu will be a bigger bottle neck than the pci-e generation.
a rtx3080 is only suffering a 4% performance hit from dropping down to gen 2 https://www.techpowerup.com/review/n...caling/27.html

In my first post I was comparing like for like quality boards although I realise that the lower prices on the b460's are the old model stock clearance price

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I did spot that about the ram, which is good as 2666mhz is CAS16 and 32gb is slightly at £178

I'm still wondering why go for a b560 or H570 over a B460 which is cheaper? the only difference I can see is pci-e gen4 which is meaningless except in synthetic benchmarks.
I'll grant you that 5 years later if you upgrade graphics and sdd it might have a difference, but even then it'll be tiny, your cpu will be a bigger bottle neck than the pci-e generation.
a rtx3080 is only suffering a 4% performance hit from dropping down to gen 2 https://www.techpowerup.com/review/n...caling/27.html

In my first post I was comparing like for like quality boards although I realise that the lower prices on the b460's are the old model stock clearance price

The B460 can't run RAM at faster than 2666MHZ,and B560 can do so at 3200MHZ,which makes a noticeable difference in benchmarks. It's around 10% to 20% improvement with the faster RAM in CPU limited games,and some games like Fallout 4 show noticeable CPU improvements with faster RAM,even with slower GPUs. It wouldn't also surprise me,just like with the B550 compared with the B450 motherboards,VRMs have probably improved on the B560,as RKL does consume more power than CNL.

Edit!!

Also,I am not really seeing much of a price difference between B460/H470 and B560/H570. The H570 motherboard I linked to is £100 and has decent looking VRM heatsinks. The H470 model is the same price:
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/asro...en2-micro-atx?
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/asro...32-gen2-aplusc

[Pob255]

but the b460 model of that board is £87 https://www.scan.co.uk/products/asro...plusc-microatx not the £50 cheaper of the ATX Asus TUF or MSI Torpedo

I didn't think intel was that effected, I know that on ddr3 it really didn't matter unless you tried using the really old slow 1066mhz stuff
I thought AMD was far more susceptible to ram performance issues.
Ahh yes I see that's a big plus for the 5xx series boards, intel put back what they took away in the first place.

Damb it's like that that makes it so hard to go back to intel for me.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

but the b460 model of that board is £87 https://www.scan.co.uk/products/asro...plusc-microatx not the £50 cheaper of the ATX Asus TUF or MSI Torpedo

I didn't think intel was that effected, I know that on ddr3 it really didn't matter unless you tried using the really old slow 1066mhz stuff
I thought AMD was far more susceptible to ram performance issues.
Ahh yes I see that's a big plus for the 5xx series boards, intel put back what they took away in the first place.

Damb it's like that that makes it so hard to go back to intel for me.

The B460/B560 chipset is lower end. The H570 chipset has PCI-E 4.0 for the main slot,and for the M2 NVME slot.

So you are paying £15 more fo that H570 motherboard over a B460 equivalent,get PCI-E 4.0 graphics slot,a PCI-E 4.0 NVME slot and the ability to run RAM at higher speeds.

That means a Core i5 11400F,will still end up similar price to a Ryzen 5 3600,and be faster in games,etc. If you don't want PCI-E 4.0,a £120 Core i5 10400F,is going to be cheaper than a Ryzen 5 3600,whilst offering similar or faster performance in games.

Then in my case I got a damaged box Core i5 10400(not F) and a B460 mini-ITX motherboard for under £170 in total. So AMD can't even compete there as a Ryzen 5 3600 with even a damaged box A320/B450 mini-ITX motherboard would be £60~£80 more.

[Kumagoro]

Thanks so for the useful info and thoughts. I thought I had a bit of wishful thinking when I read that Ryzen 6000 won't be Zen 4.

After dropping off a power supply it seems that Ableton live quickly grinds to a halt of he puts simmering like a delay in a track so I would say that is likely CPU limited. From what I read it seems it uses a main audio thread so the higher clock speed probably the better which may mean Intel would work out better. Unfortunately pure speculation if I can't see the current one in action and see if a bit of occing would make a difference.

Later I heard it was a dead PSU and now it is running on some ancient jeantech el cheapo PSU even older than the dead one. The PSU is so old the motherboard connector is split for older mobos. It would appear that I originally built it in late 2008 early 2009. So it did well for over 12 years of regular use.

Although he is keen for a new pc I think he may hold off for a little while. The prospects of a new AM2+ type board would be good considering how well it worked out on this build. I don't think he will last until AM5 and DDR5 are a reasonable price. I assume two years until then.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think Ableton can also support more threads,so more cores will be useful. I think personally what I would be looking at is:
1.)Core i5 10400F/11400F ~ around £120 to £150
2.)Core i5 10600K/KF ~ around £180 to £200
3.)Core i7 10700F ~ around £240
4.)Ryzen 7 5800X ~£330 to £350

If they are on a budget,a Core i5 10400F/11400F,H570 motherboard and 16GB of 3200MHZ DDR4 would be £300~£330. Add a new PSU for £50,a 1TB SSD for £70 and the total should be under £500.