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Thread: New rig spec check please.

  1. #33
    Senior Member Ciber's Avatar
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    I just wanted to say that raid is not always a good idea. http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles.php?id=29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciber View Post
    I just wanted to say that raid is not always a good idea. http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles.php?id=29
    Thanks for that Ciber..

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    Thanks for posting that Ciber.

    My own take on this article (with regards to raid 0 striping) is that whilst the experience written in this article is of no doubt real, I question the outcome of it.

    First and foremost, it would appear that the biggest problem with RAID on the desktop for the author is the failure rate of drives, or more importantly, the impact that failure rate has on his support function.

    I do agree with his points about seek / data transfer performance. A single drive (assuming the same performance factors) cannot seek any faster than two drives seeking in parallel, in fact you would assume they are the same. However, a single drive cannot sustain the same transfer as 2 drives in parallel. From this I would assume that a raid 0 stripe can only perform faster than a single drive, but the measure of that will depend on use. I think the point regarding file sizes is relevant, but with the bloatware that is windows and the various applications we use, there a few files left of "small" size any more!

    I cannot really comment on the quality of on board RAID controllers having never really used one before. I do have however, a 3ware raid controller (as mentioned in his article) in my home server. My server makes use of RAID5 arrays for redundancy and storage and despite having 3 hard drive failures in the last 5 years, I have never had to rebuild my server installation as a result.

    Clearly some people will be looking to RAID for data security and some for performance.

    I personally am looking for the best performance I can get from a Vista installation at a sensible price point. I am not worried about the security of my RAID0 array as my system drive will be imaged upon creation (and various points thereaftre) and can be restored should it be necessary. My data will be stored on my server RAID5 array.

    So I guess really it's going to come down to this...

    1) How reliable are "onboard" raid controllers

    and

    2) If they aren't reliable, is the performance benefit worth the aggrevation?

    It would seem from the author of that article that initially it was, but over time that changed which really points me back at the reliability question. So if the reliability is better now, then the performance may be worth it.

    I'm still going to give the RAID0 a try. And as I'm keen to know what the difference may be between a RAID / Non Raid setup, I'll pledge that once I've got my system built and imaged, I'll restore the image onto a single drive and run some performance benchmarks to see if there's a difference. (Suggestions for benchmarking tools welcome)

    I'd also like to point out the price factor surrounding this. Nearly all motherboards come with RAID facilities now. The alternatives to using 2 x 160GB drives for me is

    a 150GB Raptor which will cost twice as much and provide half the storage (and be noisy )

    or

    a full hardware raid controller (to resolve the potential reliability issues), but these are expensive (in excess of £200)

    So you can't blame people for wanting to try at the lower price point. I guess time will tell! Wish me luck!
    Last edited by bardel; 21-02-2007 at 10:15 PM.

  4. #36
    Senior Member Ciber's Avatar
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    Sounds like you know what you're doing Good luck with it then.

    I just wanted to counter the assumption that for a high performance rig, you have to get raid and also that pppl want raid because it sounds 'teh leet'. In fact for some applications, such as gaming, a RAID 0 array has been shown to have no benefit.

    I would suggest that just one 320gb 7200.10 drive would be just as fast for games, cheaper and easier to set up, but it's your PC build and it's up to you.
    Last edited by Ciber; 22-02-2007 at 11:22 AM.

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    I should think for gaming frame performance you're probably right.

    But for level loading... that could be different, dedpending on how the game is written, but there is a high potential for large file transfer at this point.

    As for cost, yep a single 320GB will be cheaper, but only by about £20. Easier to setup, yep, but where's the fun in that

    Also, I can't stand waiting for Windows to boot, even it if is only a minute in reality

    Ahh, the debate continues... I'll shall find out for myself and profess to know it all once I've done it! LOL

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    Right, getting fed up with waiting for the Gigabyte board now.

    Can someone give me an update on the "issues" that were touted with the Asus Striker Extreme? Have newer bios's now been released and the board working as expected. As I understand it, initial reviews say that the overclocking was underperforming big time.

    If it's all dandy now, then I'd say that this board is probably 4-6 weeks ahead of the Gigabyte board, and I can't wait any longer!!!!

    Sod the price, Striker is £175 ex vat, Gigabyte looks like it will be around £140 ex vat at least, so not much difference...

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    Unless eiether of you are going SLi the question over the value for money vs performance goes to the 965 chipset. The 680i runs hot, costs more for no particular performance gain at all.

    I was in your shoes 2 months ago and was going for the Striker, then I looked at the results and wondered why the hell spend an xtra 100 when the 965's perform just as well.

    A single 8800GTX on a 24 inch panel is bloody good. Frame rates are ridiculous irrespective of which game you'd come up with so SLi is wasting more money.

    The Dell 24 inch is magic and I think you would be hard pushed to really find any visually significant differences between the 24 inch panels. At least at the ones I looked at before i bought the Dell. Which by the way you can now pick up for £445 plus del.

    The issue with the X-Fi and Vista will not be solved by a driver update
    http://193.95.171.84/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WE....creative.com/

    Hope the above link works if not do a search under knowledgebase X-Fi and Vista
    In essence EAX will not be available in games under vista, third party decoders will be needed to utilise EAX.
    If you game a lot and use X-Fi then XP is probably a safer bet atm.
    Any members can qualify this?

    Good luck guys half the fun is choosing what you want

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    Hi Bardel,

    Did you manage to complete you shopping wish list ?

    I am also in the market for a new PC and wondering what best to get etc... so could you post up you final wish list.

    Cheers

    Darren

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    I'm also fed up with waiting for the Gigabyte, and am now seriously looking at the Asus P5N32-E SLi nForce 680, which is effectively a Striker without some of the bells and whistles (most notably eSATA - but how likely AM I to actually miss it?). It even has a sticker over the Striker logo on the board.

    Then there's the forthcoming Intel price cuts on C2D chips, and the release of nVidia 89xx graphics (when AMD/ATI launch the R600) which will *probably* mean more power for the same price or cheaper 8800GTXs.

    Sometimes I hate the pace of computer technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moogle View Post
    yep, i've heard and read that those can hit 1000mhz ddr2 (ie 500mhz fsb)
    The first few revisions of Dominator PC6400 cas4 were good overclockers because they used Micron D9 chips, but the current crop use inferior chips, so I'm not too sure about them...

    The 8500 cas5D uses the holy Micron chips however, so if you are planning on OCing a lot, or in the future (providing that Intel's FSB1600 CPUs are still on LGA775 ) then it may be worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by moogle View Post
    those geil ones may not have the fancy fins like corsair but they can still hit the 1000mhz mark.
    Sorry to contradict you twice but.... I have this RAM and whilst it does operate fine at advertised speed, it hardly OCs a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSte View Post
    The first few revisions of Dominator PC6400 cas4 were good overclockers because they used Micron D9 chips, but the current crop use inferior chips, so I'm not too sure about them...

    The 8500 cas5D uses the holy Micron chips however, so if you are planning on OCing a lot, or in the future (providing that Intel's FSB1600 CPUs are still on LGA775 ) then it may be worth it.



    Sorry to contradict you twice but.... I have this RAM and whilst it does operate fine at advertised speed, it hardly OCs a bit.

    you never know they still might be in stock with the retailers.

    as for the geil, im talking about the ultra low latency ones at pc26400. maybe its just your setup thats bottlenecking its oc because i seen many people who bought them and are at 500fsb on them.

    some quotes off the product reviews

    "Reviewed by: Philip May

    This stuff is the best ive ever had, traded some ocz pc8000 back as there was no difference for the extra 150 pounds,

    This stuff runs at pc1000 easy, at 5.5.5.16 @
    2.2v"

    "Reviewed by: Mark

    great ram doing 500fsb on my dfi am2 system 5.5.5.14 @2.3V"

    "Reviewed by: Subzero

    Great stuff, worked in DS3 with F5&F7 bios, got 475FSB with it all on auto.... Great stuff!"

    "Reviewed by: Harry

    This RAM is absolutely great. Its able to run at 950+ Mhz and will still go further!
    I am really pleased with this. If you want to overclock then you should seriously think about getting some of this. It just keeps going. Combine it with a C2D and the Gigabyte Ds3/Ds4 (Im using DS4) and you will have one hell of a system with loads of overclocking headroom.
    Im currently running my e6300 at 3.5ghz with this RAM.
    The heat spreaders also keep the heat down."

  12. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by moogle View Post
    you never know they still might be in stock with the retailers.

    as for the geil, im talking about the ultra low latency ones at pc26400. maybe its just your setup thats bottlenecking its oc because i seen many people who bought them and are at 500fsb on them.
    The stuff I have is the 4-4-4-12, but the Ultra low latency (3-3-3-8) certainly isn't £130 for 2GB........

    Not sure which bit of my setup could be bottlenecking it.....? It just can't reach much more than 430MHz whatever timings I use or voltage I put through it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSte View Post
    The stuff I have is the 4-4-4-12, but the Ultra low latency (3-3-3-8) certainly isn't £130 for 2GB........

    Not sure which bit of my setup could be bottlenecking it.....? It just can't reach much more than 430MHz whatever timings I use or voltage I put through it.
    £117.49
    http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showpr...odid=MY-058-GL

    £123.36
    http://www.microdirect.co.uk/(14777)...l-Channel.aspx

    Thats < £130 I'd say. Dunno why you can't seem to hit the 500fsb mark. others are doing it ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moogle View Post

    Thats < £130 I'd say.
    It is less than 130, but it isn't the ultra low latency kit....? But anyway, I was just stating my experience with that RAM. Others may have got more out of it but I certainly can't, so don't expect it to definitely OC well if you buy it, is all I'm saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSte View Post
    It is less than 130, but it isn't the ultra low latency kit....?


    Yep it is. The manufacturers code match on both, and on the website too.

    http://www.geilusa.com/products/showSpec/id/65
    Click on the specification tab to see.

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    Talking I've only gone and done it!

    Right,

    I'm all ordered up with Scan... Off to finalise my games shopping list in readyness now...

    Final shopping list was as follows:

    1 LN16810 Asus Striker Exteme NF680i SLI, S 775, PCI-E (x16), DDR2
    533/667/800, SATA II, SATA RAID, ATX £184.89 (£217.25)

    1 LN16496 2GB (2x1GB) CorsairTwinX XMS2 Dominator,DDR2 PC2-6400,240
    Pins, NonECC Unbuffered, CAS 4-4-4-12, EPP £144.64 (£169.95)

    1 LN14147 Antec P180 Advanced Super Midi Tower Case, Black (no PSU) £69.89 (£82.12)

    1 LN15215 620W Corsair HX Series Modular SLi PSU, ATX, EPS 12V, whisper
    quiet, 5 year warranty £84.99 (£99.86)

    1 LN13080 Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro - P4 up to 4.4GHz - S775 Dual Core /
    Core2Duo Ready £13.99 (£16.44)

    1 LN11918 Logitech G15 Keyboard "The Daddy of Gaming keyboards" inc
    Programable & backlit keys, LCD Screen UK
    £43.49 (£51.10)

    1 LN11827 Logitech G7, Cordless, Laser, 2000 dpi, USB 1.1/2.0, 4 Buttons, Silver/Green
    £42.86 (£50.36)

    1 LN17162 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate 64Bit 1Pk OEM (DVD) £102.19 (£120.07)

    1 Intel Core 2 Duo E6600, Socket 775, 2.4 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, Conroe Core, 4MB Cache, Retail £155.00 (£182.13)

    1 768Mb XFX 8800GTX, Extreme, PCI-E (x16), Mem 1900 MHz, GPU600 MHz, 128 Stream, 2x DVI/HDTV £335.88 (£394.66)

    1 24" Dell 2407WFP , Widescreen VGA/DVI 1920x1200, 6 ms, 1000:1, 450 cd/m2, Grey £445.00 (£522.88)

    1 Samsung SH-S183A/BEBN Black SATA 18x18 ±R Dual Layer
    DVDRW Writer OEM UK inc Nero 6.x £16.99 (£19.96)

    2 LN11461
    250 Gb Samsung SP2504C SpinPoint P120, SATA300, 7200 rpm, 8MB Cache, 9.0 ms, NCQ £38.91 (£77.82)

    Total £1717.63 (£2018.12)

    Figures in brackets include VAT.

    I think I'd originally set myself a max budget of £1500.00 but then I hadn't really considered a 24" screen

    What the heck... It'll be here next week!

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