So Pope Benedict is comparing Atheists to Nazis now?

[Whiternoise]

He did the reverse. He authored the Catholic Church's policy on denial and coverups (including the reallocation of sex offenders elsewhere within the system, to shield them)

Quite.

Why would anyone want to advertise their lack of belief? It might be part of the certain religions to "spread the Word", but if you are under no obligations, why bother? I've rarely (never?) found myself in a position where I felt like telling/had to tell people whether I am a man of faith or not. Not saying you should not be able to do so, but why? And is it possible that Atheists are associated with "religion hating" (assuming it is common) because the more vocals ones are sometime derogatory towards religion?

And when you say view Atheists on 'equal footing', in what sense? In terms of discriminations, it's only a minority of countries where Atheists may want to keep quiet and watch their back. Don't think it's a big issue in the UK. If you mean that you want people who currently do not view Atheists on equal footing to change their mind, it's probably a lost battle. I do not believe that everyone who follows a religion look down on Atheists. And vice-versa. But some do. And vice-versa. Ditto for everything else that split opinions (abortions, drug use etc.). Some people can agree to disagree with no hard feelings, but others can't.

There may be no good reason to, but the choice should be there to make. I think you may have unintentionally highlighted my point about equal footing. A lot of Humanist ideology is about making people be critical of their beliefs, it is about questioning what many people take for granted as 'right'. In this respect, why can't we have a poster on a bus? It's not a question of forcing Atheism at people, it's trying to get people be rational. Perhaps the reason we need to advertise Atheism - perhaps that's the wrong word - is to educate the general public about what it means to be secular.

Yes, the view of atheism is probably exacerbated by a few outspoken individuals. But that is just as bad as saying that all priests are paedophiles or that all Muslims practice terrorism in their spare time. Clearly intelligent people will make the link that not every Muslim is a member of Al-Qaeda and that not all Atheists leave poo on the vicar's doorstep.

I don't mean in a "watch your back" sense - though notably in the US "admitting" (I use the word with a lot of distaste) you're an atheist basically hinders your chances of ever gaining political power. My point was directly aimed at the Pope, the Catholic church tolerates (more or less) other religions and yet Atheism is shunned and publicly decried?

Forcing people to change their minds is always a losing battle, so no, I wouldn't expect people to - I just foolishly expected the leader of one of the world's largest religions to exercise a little restraint in a country that is extremely secular (apologies if I got this wrong in a previous post, I just looked up the figures, approximately 62% are atheist/agnostic).

[Brucelles]

I think it's always important to realise that a lot of atheists are not 'convinced that there is no god' they just see no reason to believe. It's not like agnosticism, where one is unsure, it's a reasoned stance that there is no credible evidence of the existence of God, and therefore I see no more reason to believe, or wonder, than I do about fairies.

So for me belief in gods is on a par with believing that there are fairies under the bridges in the Isle of Man. It doesn't make me the enemy of Catholicism.

Which means that if I were to attack the RCC it would be for reasons unrelated to religion, it would be because its vast greed, its total unconcern for the well-being of people with AIDS, its despicable promotion of homophobia and other medieval attitudes to 'minorities' and, of course, its deliberate cover up and protection of priests who raped children.

Which makes it fair comment.

[chuckskull]

And when you say view Atheists on 'equal footing', in what sense? In terms of discriminations, it's only a minority of countries where Atheists may want to keep quiet and watch their back. Don't think it's a big issue in the UK. If you mean that you want people who currently do not view Atheists on equal footing to change their mind, it's probably a lost battle. I do not believe that everyone who follows a religion look down on Atheists. And vice-versa. But some do. And vice-versa. Ditto for everything else that split opinions (abortions, drug use etc.). Some people can agree to disagree with no hard feelings, but others can't.

Nope not a minority of countries. We face discrimination here and aboard. America is particularly bad, but I've been beaten up in the street for my beliefs in good 'ole blighty. Been verbally abused more times than I remember, had death threats and threats to burn down my house. None of this includes the joy of being an atheist in a Christian school. Which includes plenty of the same with the added bonus of 'teachers' looking the other way, hoping I'd learn my lesson and come around. Last night I got compared a Nazi by the Pope.

Nothing quite as annoying as being told, it's not that bad, it's not a "big issue" though, and no you're not the first, but from a faith that preaches;

"The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one." Psalms 14.1-3

You're right it's probably a losing battle, but at least have the decency not to trivialise it.

[Brucelles]

It is kind of ironic that Hitler actually learned anti-Semitism from the Catholic society he grew up in. He was a keen church-goer, and avidly absorbed the then-current Catholic blame of the Jews for the death of Christ.

So, who was it again, that has a similarity to the Nazis? We who don't give a damn what religion, if any, you have, or the zealots who turned Hitler into one of the world's worst ever mass-murderers?

[Fraz]

I often wonder how much better a place the world would be today if it wasn't for the massive inertia the Catholic Church applies to any form of advancement. As far as can see, the Catholic Church has been against pretty much every meaningful progression (be it technological or otherwise) since they first formed. This is generally a purely selfish act, as nearly every one of these progressions takes yet more power away from them, and any talk of morality is just a lever for them to use. I find being offered moral/spiritual advice from people who have such a massive conflict of interest highly insulting.

I'm sure I wouldn't say the Pope was a bad man if he was just a normal Joe Bloggs, but he's so out of touch with reality it's beyond belief. I fail to see how anyone can find him inspirational. Personally, I think he's a very bad joke. And seeing him comparing people who are not religious to Nazis really just highlights what an absolute moron this man is.

[directhex]

I often wonder how much better a place the world would be today if it wasn't for the massive inertia the Catholic Church applies to any form of advancement. As far as can see, the Catholic Church has been against pretty much every meaningful progression (be it technological or otherwise) since they first formed. This is generally a purely selfish act, as nearly every one of these progressions takes yet more power away from them, and any talk of morality is just a lever for them to use. I find being offered moral/spiritual advice from people who have such a massive conflict of interest highly insulting.

I did some reading up on papal infallibility yesterday... if a pope declares something to be a certain way, then that declaration is permanent and binding to all Catholics - and can never be overridden.

[TheAnimus]

Its something the pope has said. Something a biggoted old man has said.

Someone who grew up in the Nazi erea, working for an organisation that did not denounce it, which has a history of encouraging antisematic behaviour, is calling Atheisim, something which been based on rational thinking has no leader people blindly follow, Nazism?

Jesus, why can't they just stay to making beer. You let them near kids, bad things happen, you let the head visit your country, bad things happen.....

[aidanjt]

...You let them near kids, bad things happen, you let the head visit your country, bad things happen.....

You let the head rule the country, very very bad things happen.

[TooNice]

@Whiternoise: But it -was- allowed, wasn't it? The posters on the bus. Not everyone were happy about it, but was the campaign prematurely/forcefully halted? You should, and I'd argue, do have the right to advertise, and people have the right to not like it.

As to the issue of rational, I am more concerned with the bigger picture (life is too short to do otherwise): is the person following teachings that are really damaging to society. I should note that a person may be Atheist, yet damaging to society in some way, and a religious person's belief may have little/no impact on society. Whether someone believes in fairies, Father Christmas or God by itself is by and large none of my concern. Whether they believe the Earth was built in a week doesn't worry me too much if they work in an environment where such assumption serve no purpose. I wouldn't be too keen if their teachings prevent their kids from becoming future scientists, but I don't think it's right to take that right away from them either. I am definitely against those who would try to pass their teachings to MY kids. I -would- be concerned if they believe that non-believers ought to be shot. Fortunately, my own experience hasn't lead me to be particularly concerned.

Unfortunately, some people probably believe that most Muslims are terrorists, most priests are paedophiles, and most Atheists corrupt beyond redemption. It's wrong, agreed, but without numbers to suggest otherwise, I am optimist in thinking that it's is a LOUD minority.

I don't think that it's only the Atheists who are disadvantaged in US politics though. Imagine if you were Muslim. And isn't there a lot of controversy surrounding that the planned construction of a building with praying area (some calling it 'Mosque') two blocks away from ground zero?

I am actually surprised that 62% of the people in this country are Atheists/Agnostic. Well, I shouldn't be in the sense that is about right amongst my friends, but I seem to have read that the number of religious people are much higher. Where did you see that?

@chuckskull: I am sorry that you had to endure all that, and if we are a product of our environment, then it is only natural that you would feel strongly about it. I don't know the exact circumstance of the event, but I will assume that you did nothing to provoke/suggest that you were looking for a fight (only stating your [lack of] belief isn't provocation, though talking down on people who you know aren't very friendly would be in my book).

Discrimination (of all form) exist in every countries, so I should have said 'places' instead. While you could still say that most place discriminate against Atheists, and I would have no evidence to say otherwise, it's fair to say that my -own- experience has so far being less brutal (thankfully).

I don't normally talk about my beliefs, but I do have a T-shirt which states "My Soul's True Religion is Music". I didn't buy it to make a anti-religion statement or to provoke, I do not treat music as a religion, but it is something that I am passionate about. And I liked the style of that T-Shirt. Still, I am vaguely aware that it may go against some people's beliefs and some might even be calling me names in their heads. So far though, I have yet to encounter anyone who is openly threatening towards me while I am in that T-Shirt.

@Fraz: Food for thought (though perhaps OT), though I've not put too much thought on this. Do you think that the presence of Catholicism provide a 'balance of power' with Islam? There is strength in numbers, and do you think that in the absence of multiple religions dividing the people, you'd end up with a 'monopoly' with too much power (one may already argue that it is the case in many countries)? Coming from an angle there will always be people who need to follow some kind of religion in the foreseeable future.

Actually, I just realised that I've unintentionally made this into another 'Religion thread'. It's been a while since I bothered posting in one, but in some sense, we've probably already read arguments from every single angle. On topic, I'll go with the rebuttal.

[chuckskull]

@chuckskull: I am sorry that you had to endure all that, and if we are a product of our environment, then it is only natural that you would feel strongly about it. I don't know the exact circumstance of the event, but I will assume that you did nothing to provoke/suggest that you were looking for a fight (only stating your [lack of] belief isn't provocation, though talking down on people who you know aren't very friendly would be in my book).

Discrimination (of all form) exist in every countries, so I should have said 'places' instead. While you could still say that most place discriminate against Atheists, and I would have no evidence to say otherwise, it's fair to say that my -own- experience has so far being less brutal (thankfully).

No, I didn't provoke anything, I was just going to the gym, woman approaches me, inviting me to some kind of "join our church"(I forget the details) thing, leaflets and all that. I politely refused, she got a bit pushy, asking why not, I said I wasn't religious, she offered to help me find God, I said I wasn't looking for him and said excuse me. Thought I was rather polite until I got a kicking and a disparaging opinion of my morality and belief system 50 yards down the road. Ho hum. I rest assured that should their God exist he will want a word with them over it, this is the guy who fed 42 kids to Bears for calling another guy baldie, the punishment for physical violence must be pretty severe

I'm glad you've not faced such things, and sincerely hope you continue to.

EDIT: For clarification, it wasn't the woman who beat me up, it was a group of lads who apparently overheard the conversation and followed me. Reread my post and noticed that rather important point missing. Oops.

[peterb]

Its something the pope has said. Something a biggoted old man has said.

..

Bigotted - excellent emotive word, but one needs to be careful that the accusation doesn't rebound on the accuser

I would point out that religious freedom is one of the 'rights' of our society - in that it is not a criminal offence to follow a religion - neither is it compulsory. However in a tolerant society, either should be permitted to follow their beliefs as they wish. Personally, I think that if some of the tenets espoused by Christianity were more widely observed in society, society might be faier and more inclusive than it is.

[Whiternoise]

Bigotted - excellent emotive word, but one needs to be careful that the accusation doesn't rebound on the accuser

I would point out that religious freedom is one of the 'rights' of our society - in that it is not a criminal offence to follow a religion - neither is it compulsory. However in a tolerant society, either should be permitted to follow their beliefs as they wish. Personally, I think that if some of the tenets espoused by Christianity were more widely observed in society, society might be fairer and more inclusive than it is.

That should apply to the leaders of religious organisations too, then. I your last sentence is probably true, but it could apply to pretty much any religion with a basic moral code - and that includes non-theism.

The Archbishop made an interesting speech today at Westminster this afternoon. I don't remember precisely, but the gist of it was "we're not here to push our religion onto everyone, but...". Seemed amusing given the Pope's little outburst yesterday.

[kalniel]

Unfortunately he's both right, and incredibly hypocritical in saying so. Aethism is an incredibly rigid mindset born out of the desire to think freely, to deny beyond all point of possibility that God exists in some form is just as rigid and unbending as any religious believer.

I think that was his point. Extremists on either side aren't a good thing.

[TeePee]

I think the majority of people in the UK will recognise his comments for what they are. Another small-minded death rattle from a religion quickly being overcome by rationalism in the western world, with England leading the march. The anti-Atheist discrimination and dogmatism will continue and probably get worse as christians decline in numbers. They see the rise of atheism for the threat it is and while other religions are largely protected, atheism is seen as a soft target. As bad as it may be in the UK, the US has it far worse. Given that the US is a good ways behind England, I'm not sure what to expect as christianity continues to decline. The hostility here is open and pronounced.

[peterb]

I have removed a couple of inappropriate posts. QT is a serious discussion thread - keep it that way.

[GoNz0]

spoilsport