Handguns, Blanket ban right, wrong or just badly thought out?

[RVF500]

Miracles will never cease...Nicho and I agree about something.....Blub will invite me round to meet the family next

[RVF500]

Speaking with my friends g/f who is an armed police officer. She tells me that the eastern European criminals are responsible for a significant increase in firearms crimes. I guess that's just what they are used to at home and assume that the same rules apply here. Also the proliferation of weapons available from the breakup of the former eastern bloc states.

What's the going rate on a used (one careful owner) AK47 nowadays? P.s. Don't get the folding stock model. Looks posey but kicks like a b*tch.

[Romanov]

multi cultural maybe have been an incorrect expression but he has a point its a well known fact (Operation Trident) that the majority of gun crime comitted today is within the black community, they even admit this themselves, the main causes being the 'gansta' culture but probably more important is the yardie gangs who are held in very high esteem in places like Catford/Lewisham where I used to work. Obviously there are many more areas like this around London but at the moment gun crime is mostly committed by ethnic minorities (Black,Eastern European) a surprise was the Turk/Kurdish community which is third ranked in the use of gun stats. I think the point being made was not that these groups are bringing more guns in but crucially they do not hold the loss of innocent life in any regard at all (recent shootings in Notting Hill) and this is where I think the gun crime debate is coming from.

Guns are used by all sorts of criminals but these groups above see guns not as a tool but as a matter of status and the way you gain status is to use them or threaten with them in public. Its the public use and shooting of innocents which is being raised as the priority with gun crime not that they are here as they have been for a long time.

[Devilbod]

Just a couple of question (and I know I'm going to regret this ) but...

Guns are designed to kill people, so in theory a bad thing. So can anyone justify to me why they could want/need a gun.
Dont go for the obvious though, cull, pigeon shooting, olympic shooting etc. I mean these could all be done in special centers where the guns are kept securley on site or even better returned to the polic after use, where you are suppervised by profesionals who all get regular evaluations...
And I'm not talking politic knee-jerk bans either, just straight simple guns.
And dont go down the lets ban knifes/baseball bats/cars and things that in truth are not designed to kill people as there primary function.
So that a side how can you justify to me owning something that is only designed for killing people?

Oh and how many of you guys agree with the possible public place smoking ban, that kills people too so in theory those that agree with guns shouldnt agree with the smoking ban.

(Take not that I might not reply, and just watch to see what happens for a few posts.)

[RVF500]

Seems to me devilbod that you've answered your own question. There is no reason for anyone to keep a firearm in their home other than for professional reasons i.e. a farmer keeps a shotgun for the reasons also outlined. Gamekeepers for culls etc. Though I'm a bit off thread as these are not handguns.

Also in a few short lines you have outlined how a little bit of thought would have preserved the domain of the sportsman who wishes to partake in competition shooting at nothing more than inanimate targets. Proper control would have kept a weapon out of the hands of Hamilton and Ryan and allowed them use only in registered ranges where they are withdrawn from a local armoury and returned after use. Not to be taken off the premises except by designated staff in a secure manner. For a competition at a seperate range for example which would be an organised event. This would allow legitimate sportsmen to carry on their hobby/sport in a way which would not put the public at large at risk and in the same way satisfy the anti-gun lobby that something constructive had been done to restrict the use and movement of such weapons.

Nor would this have been all that difficult as handguns were only allowed to be used at registered ranges anyway. They would simply have to have been accounted for (as they were anyway when they were rounded up and destroyed) and logged at the range armouries which would be subject to Police audit. Or even held at a police armoury where they would need to be booked out in advance and made available at a designated range when they were requested for use. That too would not have been difficult to organise.

This would still have done nothing to reduce gun crime as that is perpetrated by people using illegal weapons anyway now. The stats speak for themselves. But would have proven that legally owned weapons were not being used and proven that people can own and use handguns without posing a risk to the public.

Thing is. A sportsman can own archery equipment without a license or regulation. Ask the French how harmless they think English archers are. A question of balance maybe?

[Romanov]

I think the handgun ban was specifically due to their concealable nature so bows/crossbows and rifles/shotguns were not banned as they are not easily concealable. Seemed a bit strange to me as Mike Ryan used a semi auto version of the AK47 as I remember.

[Devilbod]

I wonder how difficult it would be to get a legistation put through to change the law to get one of these centers built? Might be worth asking the local mp or something if anyones interested. Remeber if you do to go to the police first and talk about staff background checks and the possiblity of them looking after the guns while not in use etc..

[RVF500]

True, it was the concealability. A modern bow with all it's balancers etc is a bit obvious. Though a traditional bow is just a wooden pole, until you add a string to it and they are vastly more deadly than their modern counterparts. However you need the physical strength to handle a war bow with a draw weight of 150lbs. So not really an off the shelf choice for your friendly nieghbourhood assassin to be fair. I'll conceed the point to Romanov.

Also shotguns and certain rifles can be concealed quite well with a little imagination and modification. Though you would have some explaining to do if plod came round to inspect you and you had a locker full of sawn off weapons. Hence legitimate users tend not to take a hacksaw to their guns as a rule.

But the point I was trying to make is that it wouldn't have taken a huge leap of imagination to satisfy both camps from a political point of view.

[Rave]

multi cultural maybe have been an incorrect expression but he has a point its a well known fact (Operation Trident) that the majority of gun crime comitted today is within the black community, they even admit this themselves, the main causes being the 'gansta' culture

True, but I personally would say that's because black people are more likely to be poor, rather than more likely to be naturally inclined to use guns. Poverty breeds crime, drug use etc. and that's what leads to more gun use.

but probably more important is the yardie gangs who are held in very high esteem in places like Catford/Lewisham where I used to work.

I live in Catford. I can't remember the last time someone was shot round here. I've never seen any obvious Yardies either. Lewisham isn't quite so nice, but I've walked down the highstreet on my own at pub closing time on a Friday and not felt scared at all.

Rich :¬)

[nichomach]

I think the handgun ban was specifically due to their concealable nature so bows/crossbows and rifles/shotguns were not banned as they are not easily concealable. Seemed a bit strange to me as Mike Ryan used a semi auto version of the AK47 as I remember.

No, he owned one. He didn't use one at Hungerford, as noted above. He used a shotgun.

[Romanov]

Poverty is a big reason for it although there are Northern estates which are dirt poor as well and gun crime just isnt as big as within the black community, guns are seen as a fashion accessory in this community whereas guns are still frowned upon by the majority (and thats other races not just white English)

lol Catford for me was a nightmare , just over the bridge down from the rail station was a large knife fight when I walked past through Catford (trains werent running from Lewisham) alot of blood around and pretty scary stuff. Although there are far worse areas in London I was just qualifying the statement by what I knew from people who lived there and worked with me.

Just like any area there are good and bad areas theres never really one location or town that is all bad just bad spots.

RVF - Yep you can cut the barrel on a rifle, cut the stock, take the trigger guard off and use a semi auto .22 with small mag and this would be about the size of a pistol, the concealable argument really showed alot of naievety over how guns can be adapted to become concealable. A quick nip on the 'sear' and the .22 becomes full auto. So concealable was an argument used but not actually a very good one if you know a bit about guns.

[Auran]

Rave

The point I was trying to make is that as peoples from different cultures move into a new country they will bring their own "gun culture" with them. Though I will admit that it is generally the minority criminal element that spoil the party, as it were.

It was in fact the eastern bloc that I was thinking of as due to the 'troubles' that are prevalent over there, guns are an inherant part of their society. Thus they bring guns with them, and make money bringing guns in, thus exacerbating the situation.

Perhaps the term multiculturalism was a bit vague, and I should have said that it is a consequence of immigration (hate to use this word as it get peoples hackles up). Don't get me wrong I wouldn't use this as a reason against immigration, as you shouldn't judge a people by the worst element of their society.

[Rave]

Poverty is a big reason for it although there are Northern estates which are dirt poor as well and gun crime just isnt as big as within the black community, guns are seen as a fashion accessory in this community whereas guns are still frowned upon by the majority (and thats other races not just white English)

Well, that's true to a degree. Be careful talking about an entire community though, even though black people (and I would say that we're talking about West Indians here, not Africans) are more likely to own and use guns, it's still a small minority of the community that thinks that way. One of the main features of Operation Trident is to build good relationships between the police and ordinary law abiding black people to make it easier for them to work together to root out the bad apples.

lol Catford for me was a nightmare , just over the bridge down from the rail station was a large knife fight when I walked past through Catford (trains werent running from Lewisham) alot of blood around and pretty scary stuff.

I guess I'm just lucky then. I get the train from Catford or Catford Bridge every day, I drink in Catford town centre a few times a week, and the worst trouble I've ever seen was a guy who was clearly on coke deciding to take on the whole pub for no reason. He was unsuccessful.

Rich :¬)

[RVF500]

No-one messes with Rave in Catford cuz he carries a cut down .22 semi and loads with dum-dums

[Rave]

LOL! I've only fired a .22 about twice in my life (at fairgrounds), my Grandad was a farmer and apparently had a .22 repeater (or something) and a shot pistol but he got rid of them in the 80s because it because it became too much hassle to keep them licenced. He gave up his double barreled 12 Gauge a couple of years ago- I don't think it'd been fired in 10 years TBH.

I stay out of trouble in Catford because I'm not small and look pretty confident, but I also try and be unobtrusive- plus as I said I'm probably lucky.

Rich :¬)

[RVF500]

.22 short are more likely to annoy someone than cause a fatal wound unless you are particularly lucky (or unlucky depending on circumstance) However it is worth remembering that the standard NATO round 5.56mm is actually .223 which is really just a .22 on steroids. So it doesn't pay to write off smaller calibres. In fact if I was to take a guess, the Soviet 5.54 round used in the AK74 would probably be .22