Education, education, education

[RVF500]

Anyone who has read a paper this week must have seen the results of the OECD international testing for 15 year olds to determine levels of education around the world.

The results appear to be that our teenagers have slipped considerably. For a number of years now people have been complaining about the 'bar being lowered' in the education sysem so that the govt can report record achievements amongst school leavers. Crusty old dinosaurs like myself have held the belief that the GCSE is no comparison to the older GCE system. Sadly, and I do mean sadly, it appears we may have been right. I have teenage kids and I know that members of this forum have recently taken GCSEs. I feel that my kids have been let down and that the work of the people who have taken the exams has been in some way belittled. I'd be interested to see what some of you who have taken exams recently feel on this.

Frankly it seems that our kids have been put second to manipulation of govt figures. Whatever it takes to look good. Only they can't manipulate internationally collated figures. So what we are seeing is the truer picture as a result. Kids don't get smarter or thicker, they simply respond to the standard of training they are given. In this case, slipping standards it seems.

Should we return to the previous GCE system. Or should they try and make the current system workable?

[headbrace]

You can't just turn back the clock and go back to the way things were. The system changes over time for many reasons, some good, most bad, but changing back won't achieve anything more. Either you must try to adapt the current system, or change it totally and utterly.

As for exams getting easier, well, I'm not sure. Having never experienced old exams, I can't really comment. Then again, neither can anyone else, as to have experience both they cannot view them in the same way as someone sitting the exams. The education has certainly changed and i think in many respects for the better. Back in the day there were an awful lot more people leaving at 15 with barely any education at all. Now these kids are given chances and encouragement to learn, and although many choose not to, there will be those who gain from it in a way that they could not have 30 years ago.

THe other problem is that while the opportunities increase, they are twisted slighlty now so that everyone thinks that everyone can achieve the same. Thus every polytechnic has become a University, and so now a degree is not simply enough, instead what matters is from where you received it. Which can easily lead to discrimination.

Also, fun as I'm sure it is to think that you could have done it better when you were at school, it's not great for those of us going through the system. Working away for 2 years and then to find out that the qualifications you are taking probably won't be recognised in the future, and that no matter how well you do, its not half as good as those who came before us. As soon as exam results come out, we are either failing by not matching previous results, or bei handed qualifications on a plate if we better what has been done before. A Catch-22.

[RVF500]

As it happens I don't think it's fun, nor do I think I could have done it better. Just differently. I didn't leave school at 15, I was 16. I wouldn't have called any of my colleagues who left at the same time as uneducated or barely educated either. It seems that levels of literacy and numeracy are lower now than they were 20 years ago. Perhaps someone has access to some stats? I'm sure it's not a good feeling working for something that people regard as sub-standard.

I happen to believe that the current education system is failing todays school leavers. I have had 2 children of my own take them and who are currently at college. I'll have more of an idea when they finish up and move into the workplace. The problem is that employers are my age group and the common belief among my age group is that educational qualifications are worth less than previously. The benchmark is not so good. It's down to the people in charge of education to change that perception. Recent exam fixing scandals and this weeks OECD results won't help that. And who get's the raw deal at the end of it all? Not me, I have a very good career and a nice house already thanks. The work place is more and more multi-national. If our education system is shown to be inferior to other systems then our young people will lose out. It's you guys who get the raw deal. From where I'm sitting that's all for the sake of some dodgy stats to help an election process.

[GreenPiggy]

right, for starters, i am a trainee physics teacher at the moment.
One thing i have noticed is the shocking depreciation in the standard of literacy and numeracy of the school entrants of the last few years - the problem seems to be getting worse and worse - i blame the national curriculum mainly for this in the adoption of a broad based curriculum at KS2(primary) instead of focussing on core skills(above)
Having said that, the strategies are now in place to ensure that kids enter high school with good literacy and numeracy skills - a hell of a lot of work has been done in bridging the KS2-KS3 divide, especially in the key areas and hopefully it will pay dividends in the years to come. We shall have to wait and see.

[Kumagoro]

About doing old exams...

When i was at uni back in the day, old exams seemed a lot harder than the ones i did.... however this is because i wasnt taught exactly the same things in my lectures as in the past years. The exams i did closely followed what i had done that year.

Saying that, i think it might have been UCL who did this, they make the freshers do they same exam every year which has been going on for like 20 years and they say the results have steadly declined... I still think this is as a result of differences in the curriculm between then and now.

[GreenPiggy]

There are a number of reasons for this.
The main one i my opinion is the 'de-coupling' of Maths and English from other subjects, while not necessarily a bad thing, the net result is to lower the standards of these two core areas so that other subjects cannot rely on this knowledge. The amount of times the kids have had to get a calculator out to do sums everyone should be able to do in their head is ridiculous.
A year 9 top set Physics student had to use a calculator to multiply a number by 100 the other day..

[Rave]

Well, I don't know if standards are declining in real terms. Anecdotally, employers say that increasingly their young employees come in with inadequate standards of Maths and English. Has anyone considered the demographic shift in patterns of employment? It could well be that the overall standard of school leavers has remained constant, but whereas previously the ones who weren't so good academically went into trades/ manual labour* where their poor standard of English and Maths wasn't a hindrance, nowadays they're more likely to go into office, service sector or retail jobs where it is.

I work for Ofsted as an administrator, and I had the opportunity to observe a school inspection in January this year. The school I visited ended up getting an inspection judgement of 'satisfactory'- that is, about average. In all honesty though, I was very impressed by the quality of the teaching and the facilities, and the achievement of the pupils. I can't really make an objective comparison, but overall I thought that it was a much better learning environment than the Primary school I attended from 1984 - 1990. My old school however was rated 'good with some very good features' in its last report! So overall, I'm firmly convinced that schools have improved over the last 15 years.

Rich :¬)

*I'm not trying to be patronising here in case anyone takes that the wrong way, there are plenty of intelligent and talented people who aren't very good at English or Maths; I'm looking at a career change to become a tradesman myself.

Edit: poor standard of English used

[RVF500]

My first brush with poor education came about when I joined the army as a wide eyed and naive 17 year old in 1980. Up until that point I had assumed that everyone could read and write and do maths the same as I could. There had been a very small number of kids with learning difficulties at my school but as these numbered a mere handful in a total school population approaching 2000 (one of the biggest comprehensives in the country). It came as something if a surprise to me.

Perhaps it is as rave suggests. The workplace is changing. Many school leavers are now moving into office environments where defficiencies in literary and numeracy skills would show up. Whereas previously the majority would go into manual employment where these issues would be masked. It's a plausible theory.

However, the fact remains that we have slipped downwards against other nations. Not by one or 2 places but by up to 10 places (maths). Is this due to govt meddling? I can't believe it is down to bad teachers, more likely bad guidelines that teachers are forced to follow.

[GreenPiggy]

I don't agree with Rave's assessment at all.
Ask any high school teacher about the standard of kids coming into year 7 and they'll tell you the same thig - the average reading age of pupils has gone down by about two years in the last ten years. Note that I don't say that this is the fault of primary schools, it isn't. Reading difficulties are probably most caused by the rise of computer games. Personally I am an advocate of primary schools ditching everything from their curriculum but reading, writing and arithmetic.
As for the decline in numeracy - i can solely blame that on one thing:- the calculator.
Kids now have absolutely no concept of number theory because at every stage of school they are allowed to use the lazy option(this goes with the decoupling thing i said before)

[jarvo]

when i was at school i was often told off for NOT using a calculator.
i would get less marks in an exam for getting the right answer but not showing working out, than someone who got the question wrong but showed how they got it wrong.

now that is completly wrong, calculators should be banned.

allowing children to spell words incorrectly is also very wrong.. ie american spelling is now allowed in exams.

the fact that most schools are becoming community colleges, specialising in one subject, usually art or performing arts.. as they get more money yet teach all the subjects badly.

rant over.

[Clingy]

An employers perspective (alas from an old fart). In my day exams were "competetive". i.e 70% pass 30% fail. Nowadays they attempt to maintain the same standard from year to year. Sorry, but you have to be very naive to think this is possible as so much is changing.

The trouble from an employers point of view is that there are only a limited number of jobs available and they will go to the best qualified. Having qualifications that were competetive, you knew you were getting the top XX% of the intake. Certainly when talking about the most able pupils, the qualifications are such that you cannot differentiate between the good and the best. I guess that is why many a top University are introducing there own entrance papers.

I cannot help but think this is all political manipulation. I worry constantly about my childrens education and prospects. The first is doing GCSE exams this year.

[RVF500]

The idea of everyone can do well is all very well until the stumbling block of employment is reached. Employers are not motivated by equality but by competetition. As clingy said, they want the best people for the job. By cramming more people into university you risk devaluing the degrees. If a uni uses entrance exams then employers will begin to see them as benchmarks. Students at other unis will be seen as less preferred.

The fact is that no uni should require entrance exams. The secondary school standards should be exacting enough to filter out those who are not so academically accomplished before the university selection process even begins. If this seems a bit draconian, even Darwinian, an outlook. That's because it is.

I didn't go to uni. I didn't make the grade. However I found another route. Ultimately I took exams in a much more exacting environment than school. Ended up with certifications that were valid in the eyes of employers and represented a certain benchmark thus attracted the kind of remuneration commensurate with that level.

My point is that by making standards more exacting then those who make the grade will reap their just rewards for the hard work put in at the beginning. Those who don't will have to do like me and find another way. Either that or realise that not everyone can be the CEO of an investment bank and set their sights accordingly.

It's down to the education authorities to find a way of ensuring that kids reach their full potential (whatever that may be) and are as well prepared as possible for the world of employment.