Execution of Tookie Williams

[Taz]

Full story here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4523502.stm

Right or wrong?

[BEANFro Elite]

Dayamn!! What a fro

Uuuuh...I mean, he WAS on deathrow for twenty-four years though, surely if he was innocent, he'd been found innocent in that, but then again I know very little on this matter as I've been boycotting the news for the last three or four months..it would seem...

[autopilot]

The death sentence had been a topic quite a bit around here lately, so i wont go into too much depth.

But basically, i have no sympathy for people who commit murder. I wont loose a second of sleep over his death. I still, however, remain completely opposed to the death penalty. It wont does not stop people comitting murder, it does not constitute justice (revenge is not the same thing), innocent people do get killed, and, Hell, if he was guilty, make him suffer even longer. Death is not a punishment, its a release compared to spending forever in a cell IMO.

i'm not expert, and he may well have been completely guilty, but the first thing that pops into my mind about the USA 20-30 years ago is corruption and racism. Although that may be irrelevent.

Oh, and Arnold Schwarzenegger is a complete tit too.

[EvilMunky]

I read a bit about this a while ago. The guy has apparently done a lot for anti gang type stuff. But that doesnt excuse his actions in the past.

However, the whole evidence thing does kind of cloud things a bit. Without looking into this in depth - its hard to pass judgement.

I say bring back execution here tho - im sure there are a few people here who need to be removed.

[EvilMunky]

But basically, i have no sympathy for people who comit murder. I wont loose a minute of sleep over his death. I still, however, remain completely opposed to the death penalty. It wont does not stop people comitting murder, it does not constitute justice (revenge is not the same thing), innocent people do get killed, and, Hell, if he was guilty, make him suffer even longer. Death is not a punishment, its a release compared to spending forever in a cell IMO.

The thing about that is that for some people life in prison isnt as bad as you may think.

Ive read a fair bit about this - just cos im interested in it and of course its no match to being outside, but i imagine someone like Tookie would have everything he needed in there. Im sure being in there wasnt as bad for him as it woul dbe for some others.

Not disagreeing with you in that they should be made to suffer in a cell more - but something like isolation for a few years would be better than general population.

[DavidM]

He's been alive 20 years plus longer than his victims.

[MSIC]

I found this a really tough call, imagining what i would do if i were the 'governator'.
In my mind it basically boils down to 2 conflicting issues (and neither of them about if he's guilty or not - he has been found guilty in a court so i accept that).

1) He committed murder, and society must not be seen to let people off for that (i personally am opposed to killing for 'justice' also, but again, that's the law in California). Therefore it's a deterrent for other people who may consider killing.

2) He has done alot of good since being inside, and even though he is guilty of murder, may in fact be able to improve society quite a lot if left alive by convincing others not to go down the path he did.

I'd keep the man alive, never let him out of prison, and hope that he helps other kids to stay out of that lifestyle.

Too late now unfortunately.

[Taz]

Okay, i'm totally against the death penalty. There was a murder of a black kid in the UK recently and his killers were forgiven by the kid's mother. She was a Christian and found it in her heart to forgive. When I read about that I felt really humbled.

Now, Bush is allegedly a Christian but favours the death penalty. Ironically, more right-wing Republicans in the US are anti-abortion stating that the right to life is paramount.

[Edit] Does civilisation progress when vengeance prevails or forgiveness prevails?

[MSIC]

I work with drug users, and my most basic belief is that people have a fundamental capacity to be better than they were (ie to grow and change as people).

If you give the death penalty, it's making a statement that a person is 'evil' and will always remain so. I don't believe that.

[fuddam]

Does civilisation progress when vengeance prevails or forgiveness prevails?

Not the situation here. The death penalty is not about vengeance but justice. Someone can be forgiven for committing a crime, but that does not excuse the perpetrator from being punished.

I'm in favour of forgiveness, regardless, since it's the only way the victim / victim's survivors can get freedom from the criminal act done against them. When people refuse to forgive, they hold themselves captive to the problem, and are stuck in a loop. 'tis true. When people forgive, they can let go

[Rave]

Not the situation here. The death penalty is not about vengeance but justice. Someone can be forgiven for committing a crime, but that does not excuse the perpetrator from being punished.

What's the actual point of punishment then?

Which fundamental law of the universe says that crime must automatically lead to punishment?

[Oresa]

Um.... from what I've read about Williams, the evidence he was convicted on was pretty shaky, to say the least. It was mostly composed of 2nd hand testimony from people already jailed for commiting crimes, who were then treated more leniently. Personally, i'm not prepared to accept that he was guilty, only that he could have been.

The death penalty is not about vengeance but justice.

Actually, think about how much justice there is in it. The name escapes me, but a year or two ago, a far-right American christian was found guilty of killing a doctor from an abortion clinic. He was sentenced to death. This is not a punisment for him. He believes he will be welcomed into heaven for doing God's work. He's not afraid to die. So where's the punishment? Where's the justice? Death is only a punishment if the guilty party is afraid of it.

[Stewart]

and gun related gun deaths

Are there any other sort of gun deaths?

[autopilot]

Which fundamental law of the universe says that crime must automatically lead to punishment?

What would the alternative be?

[TeePee]

I'm strongly against the death penalty, it is not the action of a civilized nation.

That said, those who defend 'Tookie' by saying the his books are against violence, and mention his peace prize nominations in claiming he has reformed ignore the fact that he has taken no responsibility for his actions (not just the murders), and he has refused to co-operate with the police in reducing gang violence.

The death penalty is wrong, no matter how bad the person executed.

[Rave]

What would the alternative be?

Rehabilitative treatment? Forgiveness? Incarceration? Incarceration /= punishment.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing is gained by intentionally inflicting suffering on another human being. There is no 'great balancing force' that makes the world a better place if that happens.