Critique this basic £250 build for me pls- Llano or Phenom II X2?

[Rave]

I've been tasked with putting together a computer for my best mate's business partner- for about £250 not including screen or OS. That may be stretchable to £300, but I'd prefer not to. I don't think it's going to be used for anything particularly challenging but obviously I'd like to make it as tasty and futureproof as possible for the money. I'd also like it to have something approaching usable DX-10 class graphics- just in case they decide to install a game or two, and obviously so any videos they want to play do so smoothly. I used to be an obsessive PC enthusiast but I've fallen a bit behind in recent times and so I'm in need of a bit of advice, as I really haven't been keeping up with the latest processors and chipsets. I would do a bit more googling and reading reviews, but unfortunately my virgin BB is down at the moment (for maintenance, apparently), so I'm being forced to use my android phone as a hotspot which is both slow, and against my T&Cs .

I was thinking that a Llano CPU might be just the job, but the only one that seems to be currently available is the basic triple core one with lower spec graphics (the 3500).

So I'd be looking at:

this £58.26 motherboard
and this £72.46 processor.

For a tenner or so less I can get this £55.05 motherboard and this £65.51 processor. Only two cores, but quite a bit faster clockspeeds and lots more cache. Plus I apparently stand about an 80% chance of unlocking at least more more core anyway. If that doesn't work out I can probably tweak it up to 3.6ghz easily enough since a Black Edition.

So realy, what I need to know is how much better the performance of the Llano's onboard graphics is compared to the 880G chipset in the MSI AM3 board. And then I've got to decide if it's worth the extra money and reduced CPU performance, since I 'm pretty sure that the 880G is fine for HD video playback and casual gaming. Please excuse the mixture of links to Scan and Ebuyer, I will of course shop about a bit more once I have functioning BB again.

The rest of the computer specs itself really; 1TB Samsung F3 for about 40 quid, a basic case and PSU about 30 quid (I've always got on fine with ebuyer and scan cheapo PSUs), Samsung DVD burner for 15 quid. I dunno if he needs a new mouse and keyboard, but I'll go el-cheapo if so.

The only other question is RAM- I'm definitely going to go with 8GB of DDR3 since it's so cheap at the moment, I just wonder whether to cough a little more for 1600 over 1333. With Corsair Vengeance 2x4GB 1600 at just over £40 on Today Only IIRC it seems worth the money, but I guess it would make more difference to the Llano than the Phenom/880G combo?

TIA for any comments.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Check the £350 build in the Hexus guide:

http://forums.hexus.net/pc-hardware/...er-2011-a.html

With an OS it will be around £280.

Edit!!

Also,look if VAT can be claimed back too. This would mean the effective budget is higher.

[fazz]

Check the £350 build in the Hexus guide:

http://forums.hexus.net/pc-hardware/...er-2011-a.html

With an OS it will be around £280.

Edit!!

Also,look if VAT can be claimed back too. This would mean the effective budget is higher.

thanks very good guide im looking to build a new pc..

[Rave]

Check the £350 build in the Hexus guide:

http://forums.hexus.net/pc-hardware/...er-2011-a.html

With an OS it will be around £280.

Thanks Cat, I did read that and very helpful it was too. A real labour of love BTW, I hope you have the energy to keep it up! Good on you mate and thanks.

However- for this build I really don't think that a discrete graphics card is necessary at all. I only want DX10 class graphics just in case someone decides to buy and install some sort of recent game- at least then I'll know it'll run, and look somewhat sensible, albeit at low resolution. I think it's pretty unlikely, but you never know. That's my main reason for not going wih Intel, their graphics may be much improved but they're still not up to scratch IMO. FWIW I'm still very happy with my own Core2Duo and 4850 combo. Also FWIW, my little brother did manage to play all the way through Borderlands on his 2 year old laptop with Intel GMA graphics! He didn't seem bothered by the N64-esque visuals. I did however have to spend 20 quid upgrading him to 2GB of RAM to avoid constant stuttering while the page file was consulted!

So, that said, I think the 8GB of RAM and 30 quid saving over your build are the way to go. The MSI board has a more recent chipset- the 880- than your recommended board too. Doesn't the 700-series date back to 2007 or something?. Albeit that it only has a 710 SB. I think 3.2Ghz of L3 cached Phenom power will beat one extra Athlon core- and that's if I don't get lucky unlocking extra cores on the Phenom, which hopefully I will. I don't anticipate them using any heavily threaded applications. I'll be going with the stock cooler and I'm leery of giving anyone who doesn't know what they're doing a computer that's anywhere near the edge of stability. If I do manage to unlock the cores I'll leave it at 3.2GHz and knock the voltage down a bit in the bios, then leave it priming for 24h to make sure it's good.

TBH I think I've answered my own question, on balance. Whatever the relative qualities of the 880G graphics vs the A8-3500 graphics, they're so unlikely to be heavily used that I think I'll go with the Phenom combo. Just got to hope my BB stays up long enough to get it all ordered:rolleyes.

Edit!!

Also,look if VAT can be claimed back too. This would mean the effective budget is higher.

THey're still in the early stages of settingup their business. More trouble than it's worth at this stage I suspect. Though I'll keep the invoices obviously.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Thanks Cat, I did read that and very helpful it was too. A real labour of love BTW, I hope you have the energy to keep it up! Good on you mate and thanks.

However- for this build I really don't think that a discrete graphics card is necessary at all. I only want DX10 class graphics just in case someone decides to buy and install some sort of recent game- at least then I'll know it'll run, and look somewhat sensible, albeit at low resolution. I think it's pretty unlikely, but you never know. That's my main reason for not going wih Intel, their graphics may be much improved but they're still not up to scratch IMO. FWIW I'm still very happy with my own Core2Duo and 4850 combo. Also FWIW, my little brother did manage to play all the way through Borderlands on his 2 year old laptop with Intel GMA graphics! He didn't seem bothered by the N64-esque visuals. I did however have to spend 20 quid upgrading him to 2GB of RAM to avoid constant stuttering while the page file was consulted!

I have an HD5670 GDDR5 in my newer computer and it seems to run plenty of modern games at reasonable settings.

So, that said, I think the 8GB of RAM and 30 quid saving over your build are the way to go. The MSI board has a more recent chipset- the 880- than your recommended board too. Doesn't the 700-series date back to 2007 or something?. Albeit that it only has a 710 SB. I think 3.2Ghz of L3 cached Phenom power will beat one extra Athlon core- and that's if I don't get lucky unlocking extra cores on the Phenom, which hopefully I will. I don't anticipate them using any heavily threaded applications. I'll be going with the stock cooler and I'm leery of giving anyone who doesn't know what they're doing a computer that's anywhere near the edge of stability. If I do manage to unlock the cores I'll leave it at 3.2GHz and knock the voltage down a bit in the bios, then leave it priming for 24h to make sure it's good.

The motherboard uses an AM3 socket,whereas the ones I listed use an AM3+ socket meaning there is some chance of using a Bulldozer CPU. However,companies have taken this chance to jack up prices on 800 series motherboards just because they use a slightly different socket. BTW,the 880G motherboard you mentioned also uses the SB710 southbridge.

Athlon II X3 CPUs can be unlocked to Athlon II X4 and Phenom II X4 CPUs. One of my mates unlocked an Athlon II X3 435 to a 2.9GHZ Phenom II X4.

For any games which use more than two cores,the Athlon II X3 will be faster and the same applies to image editing and video encoding software.

Here is a comparison between an Athlon II X3 455 and a Phenom II X2 560:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/202?vs=187

TBH I think I've answered my own question, on balance. Whatever the relative qualities of the 880G graphics vs the A8-3500 graphics, they're so unlikely to be heavily used that I think I'll go with the Phenom combo. Just got to hope my BB stays up long enough to get it all ordered:rolleyes.

The Llano A6 and A8 have around the same IPC as a Phenom II X3 or X4.

There is also the 2.7GHZ Llano A4 3400 which has similar IPC to an Athlon II X2. The A4 has an IGP which should be around the same level as an HD6450.

The Llano based systems seem to have very low idle power consumption too. An Athlon II X3 or Phenom II X2 and an 880G based motherboard will consume much more power than a Llano A4 or Llano A6 and an A55 or A75 motherboard. Remember,Llano uses two chips and the other systems three chips.

Regarding the Llano motherboards I would get an A75 based one such as the following:

http://www.ebuyer.com/274047-asrock-...board-a75m-hvs

The Gigabyte one you mentioned has the A75 southbridge but none of the SATA3.0 or USB3.0 ports have been connected.

[Rave]

I have an HD5670 GDDR5 in my newer computer and it seems to run plenty of modern games at reasonable settings.

Sure. I doubt that my 50 year old client is going to be that bothered. He has kids but I daresay they have PS3s and/or XBox 360s.

The motherboard uses an AM3 socket,whereas the ones I listed use an AM3+ socket meaning there is some chance of using a Bulldozer CPU. However,companies have taken this chance to jack up prices on 800 series motherboards just because they use a slightly different socket. BTW,the 880G motherboard you mentioned also uses the SB710 southbridge.

Yes I know the MSI board I linked has the 710 S/B, that was what I meant, sorry if it wasnt clear. So basically there are boards out there with the 4 year old 770 chipset that have an AM3+ socket but the board I linked with the 880G chipset only has AM3? Very odd and confusing .

Athlon II X3 CPUs can be unlocked to Athlon II X4 and Phenom II X4 CPUs. One of my mates unlocked an Athlon II X3 435 to a 2.9GHZ Phenom II X4.

O Rly? I didnt realise that you could unlock the L3 cache as well. I suppose that opens things up a little.....

For any games which use more than two cores,the Athlon II X3 will be faster and the same applies to image editing and video encoding software.

Here is a comparison between an Athlon II X3 455 and a Phenom II X2 560:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/202?vs=187

Well I guess it becomes a game of chance/probability then, since pretty much every mid-range AMD processor seems to cost between 50 and 70 quid. The worst case scenario is that I can't unlock either core on the X2 BE and I can't get a decent overclock out of it either- which seems unlikely on a BE. Looking at those benchmarks I'm still inclined to lean towards the fast dual core with a load of guaranteed L3 cache, as I think that's most likely to result in the snappiest day-to-day performance for my pretty undemanding customer.

The core unlock may or may not work; the cache unlock may or may not work. Worst case scenario with the X2 BE is that I've still got a pretty fast dual core?

Sorry if it seems like I'm asking your advice and then ignoring it. But I just want to get some guaranteed speed for someone who's most likely to be a pretty undemanding user.

The Llano A6 and A8 have around the same IPC as a Phenom II X3 or X4.

Really? I haven't had time to peruse the benchmarks but I assumed that Llanos perform similarly to Athlons since they don't seem to have L3 cache?

The Llano based systems seem to have very low idle power consumption too.

Regarding the Llano motherboards I would get an A75 based one such as the following:

http://www.ebuyer.com/274047-asrock-...board-a75m-hvs

The Gigabyte one you mentioned has the A75 southbridge but none of the SATA3.0 or USB3.0 ports have been connected.

Good find if I do decide to go Llano.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Yes I know the MSI board I linked has the 710 S/B, that was what I meant, sorry if it wasnt clear. So basically there are boards out there with the 4 year old 770 chipset that have an AM3+ socket but the board I linked with the 880G chipset only has AM3? Very odd and confusing .

The motherboard you mentioned is probably being phased out instead of the more expensive "improved" AM3+ versions.

O Rly? I didnt realise that you could unlock the L3 cache as well. I suppose that opens things up a little.....

The Athlon II X3 is based on either the Athlon II X4 or Phenom II X4.

Well I guess it becomes a game of chance/probability then, since pretty much every mid-range AMD processor seems to cost between 50 and 70 quid. The worst case scenario is that I can't unlock either core on the X2 BE and I can't get a decent overclock out of it either- which seems unlikely on a BE. Looking at those benchmarks I'm still inclined to lean towards the fast dual core with a load of guaranteed L3 cache, as I think that's most likely to result in the snappiest day-to-day performance for my pretty undemanding customer.

The core unlock may or may not work; the cache unlock may or may not work. Worst case scenario with the X2 BE is that I've still got a pretty fast dual core?

Sorry if it seems like I'm asking your advice and then ignoring it. But I just want to get some guaranteed speed for someone who's most likely to be a pretty undemanding user.

The thing thing is the Athlon II X3 will be faster than a Phenom II X2 at the same clockspeeds in quite a few applications.

The Photoshop the Athlon II X3 is 20% faster,its faster for any video encoding,faster in excel overall and faster for file compression and decompression.

Also,you need to consider that a triple or quad core will feel snappier in day to day use over a dual core.

Really? I haven't had time to peruse the benchmarks but I assumed that Llanos perform similarly to Athlons since they don't seem to have L3 cache?

It depends on the software. Llano has twice the L2 cache of an Athlon II X3 and X4 per core and a similar amount of L2 cache per core as an Athlon II X2. It also has some other improvements too.

[scaryjim]

LLanos lack L3 cache but have twice as much dedicated L2 cache per core (1MB vs 512KB), which compensates to a certain extent. Not all tasks are cache dependant - I believe gaming is one of the most cache dependant tasks of all, so if gaming isn't a real concern then perhaps the extra cache shouldn't be a deciding factor. For a general use PC I'd personally go for the Athlon II X3 which will give a better balance of performance between single- and multi-threaded than a similarly clocked Phenom II X2. My HTPC runs off a Sempron 140 and is perfectly snappy in day-to-day usage - I don't think the L3 cache is going to make much of a differnce for web browsing and word processing

As far as Llano goes, ebuyer currently have stock of 4 different APUs: A4-3400, A6-3500, A6-3650 and A8-3850: so your choice of dual, triple or quad core. Having looked at them recently for a few friends, I can't really see any point getting anything other than the A8-3850: the performance drops don't really seem to justify the prices (unless you're cutting close to a budget, which I don't think you will be).

As to memory - why 8GB? I've yet to see a usage pattern (outside of large dataset sorts in SPSS, anyway) that can even get close to using 4GB. If you go Llano get the fastest memory you can possibly squeeze in to the budget - 2000+MHz currently seems to be cheaper than 1866MHz and is well worth a look. For an AM3 build don't bother with anything faster than 1333MHz, you won't get any real world improvement out of it!

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

At the same clockspeeds,an A8-3850 is faster than an Athlon II X4 even in non-gaming benchmarks:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/399?vs=88

AMD,estimate a 6% IPC improvement which puts it around the Phenom II X4 level. Supposedly,the IPC improvement is also down to an improved hardware prefetcher too.

Once it is around the £90 mark,the A8-3850 will be better value IMHO.

Regarding the A8, 1866MHz or 2000MHZ RAM does show a smaller improvement,but the jump from 1333MHZ DDR3 from 1600MHZ DDR3 is much bigger.

The A4 for some reason has half the L2 cache per core of the A6 and A8. OTH,it does have an HD6450 level IGP, which makes it a much better HTPC choice than an Athlon II X2 and an 880G based motherboard.

However,Intel has recently launched the Celeron G530 dual core:

http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/c...paign=products

For £37 it looks quite good value IMHO. The Celeron G540 is not far behind a Pentium G620 it seems.

[Rave]

Well, in the end I took all the advice in this thread on board and still gambled on the X2 BE. And.....it looks like I got lucky; right now it's priming away quite merrily on all four cores at 3.5GHz on 1.25V with the stock cooler.

I'm pleased with that. 3.5GHz was what AMD Overdrive suggested. I'll probably knock it back to 1.2V in the bios and see what it manages then; hopefully Overdrive will get it up around 3.4GHz, then I can simply disable Overdrive, leave it at 3.2GHz, and be pretty confident that it'll chunter away quite happily for a couple of years even if my client never cleans the dust out of the heatsink.

Cool 'n Quiet seems to be working fine too. At least the Cool bit is, knocking it back to 800MHz on idle. I will have to investigate the fan control a bit more.