LinkBack URL
About LinkBacksSomewhat.Result! Glad you got it sorted
This whole thing reminds me of MS's f up with sp3 in XP by not including support for UAA drivers when it was suppose to be there, but wasn't. They finally issued a "KB" patch. This is 100x worse.
Somewhat.Result! Glad you got it sorted
This whole thing reminds me of MS's f up with sp3 in XP by not including support for UAA drivers when it was suppose to be there, but wasn't. They finally issued a "KB" patch. This is 100x worse.
When not in use, turn off the juice.
Think of someone else instead of just yourself. There is far more to it than your utility bill.
Makes perfect sense. Well, ish.Originally Posted by videobruce
The potted version is with BIOS, entire "drives" are bootable, because BIOS isn't sophisticated enough to boot anything except a chunk of 16-bit 8086 machine code from the start of the drive. Whether it's an IDE drive (which SATA drives have to emulate to boot from, because BIOS is antique) or a floppy drive (which DVD drives have to emulate to boot from, because BIOS is antique).
With UEFI, apps are bootable. It's not just a dumb chunk of machine code, it's an actual app for the UEFI "OS". That app, in most cases, is a boot loader. Other OSes (i.e. Linux) can just boot from here, by being compiled as UEFI apps, without the need for a boot loader.
Now, what happens if you need to make a disk which is able to boot on both types of systems? You need to include both types of boot record - the UEFI app, and the 8086 machine code for BIOS.
If you were the designer, how would you present this to the user? Your DVD, or USB drive, or whatever, contain two different bootable entries - one emulated floppy disk containing 16-bit 8086 machine code, and one containing a 64-bit UEFI app. You can't just assume people always want the UEFI option, because they might not. So how would you build that menu?
Well, if only it were that simple..This is what I still don't understanding what the hell does a optical or USB drive have to do with anything. All of this should be in the installer package where one can decide if the install will be GPT or MBR. This may be a poor example, but it's almost like saying, if you want Win7 Home you have to install it from a optical drive, but if you want Win7 Professional, it has to be installed from a USB drive.
The problem is it's too late by the time the installer is started. Either a BIOS-only installer has been loaded, or a UEFI-only installer has been loaded, and once the installer is loaded, you're locked in.
Which data? A BIOS board pulls different data into RAM than a UEFI board. You can't switch mode after the CPU has been initialized. So you include both sets of data, and let the user pick which one to use..Why can't that be done within the installer? Why does it have to be before? All the initial data that is pulled of the install media is stored in RAM isn't it until the actual install proceeds isn't it?
videobruce (03-12-2013)
Why can't these boot as before and then load the additional data needed to install in UEFI mod? Why does the initial boot mode have to dictate how the O/S boots when and after it's installed?
Working in DOS is more straight forward.
When not in use, turn off the juice.
Think of someone else instead of just yourself. There is far more to it than your utility bill.
The job of an OS is to interface between the computer hardware and the apps.
The entire interface layer for BIOS-based computers and UEFI-based computers is different. And mutually exclusive - i.e. a system can't present stuff via both UEFI and BIOS at the same time, as there is incompatible overlap in things like how devices are presented and how memory is used.
Stuff like... how does an OS tell the computer "hey, got any graphics cards plugged in? Can you turn one on so I can use it?" - the way BIOS requires you to do this is different from the way UEFI requires you to do this. And the response from the computer is different too - "OK, here you go, use this memory address space" where the numbers are different depending on whether it's a UEFI computer or BIOS computer.
There's more than 2 decades of difference in the design of the systems. Sometimes there's a limit to how much lipstick you can put on a pig, and need to start over with something explicitly not backward-compatible.
videobruce (03-12-2013)
I kind of understand what you're saying, and I don't know enough about it as to whether its technically possible, but from microsofts perspective, why bother. Assuming you're using official media (which is all they support) then it just works and picks the fastest method. If you're not using official media then you're SOL.Why can't these boot as before and then load the additional data needed to install in UEFI mod? Why does the initial boot mode have to dictate how the O/S boots when and after it's installed?
Working in DOS is more straight forward.
The other posters have addressed this, but it isn't "one, then the other" Its "either or" from the moment the watchdog timer releases the CPU reset pin, and the CPU starts up - either UEFI or the legacy BIOS
Well, only because you have had experience with itin DOS is more straight forward.- I mean, starting a modern 64 bit computer by using code that was first introduced before the 80286 processor is getting a bit antiquated! There have been so many fudges to get round the limitations of the early architectures (the CHS limitations, the 8GB drive limitations and so on) that it has gone way beyond creaking at the edges. It is amazing that the BIOS boot method has been fudged and patched for so long.
There is a reasonable introduction to UEFI here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified...ware_Interface
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Been helped or just 'Like' a post? Use the Thanks button!
My broadband speed - 750 Meganibbles/minute
I do understand that, but a better designed procedure and far clearer detailed instruction would help. After montrhs of scouring through articles, posts and what noy, it only made thing more confusing.There's more than 2 decades of difference in the design of the systems. Sometimes there's a limit to how much lipstick you can put on a pig, and need to start over with something explicitly not backward-compatible.
Information overload.
No idea what that means. I'll save that for another thread.Its "either or" from the moment the watchdog timer releases the CPU reset pin, and the CPU starts up
It was more a smart ass answer. I'm not a fan of DOS, hence the comment.Well, only because you have had experience with it
When not in use, turn off the juice.
Think of someone else instead of just yourself. There is far more to it than your utility bill.
I am using "official media", I'm just doing what MS built into it.Assuming you're using official media (which is all they support) then it just works and picks the fastest method. If you're not using official media then you're SOL.
I tried that modification of cpoying that "boot" folder, moving it up one level then adding that other file and renaming it (which makes it work with a USB stick) on a DVD, but that didn't work. I did not have the 2nd instance (UEFI) of that drive when booting.
Again, using RT7 Lite, a USB stick w/ the "fix", it does load with no known issue.
Now, why does it work? What does duplicating that folder, moving it and adding & renaming another file fix the probelm??
When not in use, turn off the juice.
Think of someone else instead of just yourself. There is far more to it than your utility bill.
UEFI only supports a limited number of file systems. The specification demands FAT32 for hard disks including USB drives (hence the EFI System Partition on your drive now) and FAT16 or FAT12 for removable media (i.e. floppy or optical).
DVDs contain either ISO9660 or UDF as the filesystem.
For a DVD to contain a valid UEFI boot record, it needs an embedded FAT image at the start containing the boot loader. You can't see these embedded records with a normal ISO mount tool or by looking at a burned disc in Explorer, but they're there.
This is the same way a bootable DVD works with BIOS - it needs an embedded floppy disk image at the start, containing a BIOS loader.
It works with your USB stick because the stick is formatted with FAT32 and has an EFI/Boot/bootx64.efi file on it. It doesn't work with your DVD because your DVD doesn't have any valid UEFI embedded header (i.e. your DVD has no FAT partition containing EFI/Boot/bootx64.efi)
Then how can I create one?It doesn't work with your DVD because your DVD doesn't have any valid UEFI embedded header
When not in use, turn off the juice.
Think of someone else instead of just yourself. There is far more to it than your utility bill.
Depends on the tool you use to generate the .iso from your temporary Windows Installer folder. oscdimg, Microsoft's tool, supports it if you add the right parameters.
Three more helpful links:
This one talks about EFI - which was the predecessor to UEFI, but it is a well written introduction
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonatha...t-process.html
The next two rather more involved and specially addresses UEFI, and the use in Linux/unix systems, but the principles are the same for any OS. The first deals with bootloaders
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Boot_Loaders
This one deals with the process after the boot loader has executed, and possibly of less interest/relevance to you.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php...ware_Interface
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Been helped or just 'Like' a post? Use the Thanks button!
My broadband speed - 750 Meganibbles/minute
videobruce (04-12-2013)
Thanks, I did find the 1st & 3rd articles the other day in my travels.
Can't believe it's this much hassle. I'll settle for the USB stick for now to get things rolling.
When not in use, turn off the juice.
Think of someone else instead of just yourself. There is far more to it than your utility bill.
I forgot to ask this, does the actual make/ model of the optical drive matter? IOW's, are any different in this respect, can one handle this better than others?It works with your USB stick because the stick is formatted with FAT32 and has an EFI/Boot/bootx64.efi file on it. It doesn't work with your DVD because your DVD doesn't have any valid UEFI embedded header (i.e. your DVD has no FAT partition containing EFI/Boot/bootx64.efi)
When not in use, turn off the juice.
Think of someone else instead of just yourself. There is far more to it than your utility bill.
Nope
If the boot folder in the instalation files is copied and moved up one level, then a file from a already installed W7 is added and renamed, booting from a USB stick works. A DVD still doesn't.
When not in use, turn off the juice.
Think of someone else instead of just yourself. There is far more to it than your utility bill.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
