News - Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 banned from Europe

[dangel]

That depends how you define "market".

I don't think that changes what I said - in fact I agree with your definition - but Sammy et al are all trying to enter the very same market - their tablets are very similarly priced and they're looking for the same profit. The cost to them of closing the door is minimal right now - both monetarily and in terms of the perception of their brand (just look how people jump and and defend Apple like they were a dear family member) is a drop in the ocean. Premium products they may be, but they are indeed shifting many, many boxes at the same time - one has to admire them having the ability to do both.

You can buy cheap tablets - but they're crap - and hence why Apple sees them as no threat.

I still think this will be thrown out in time nonetheless (given the evidence thus far presented the whole thing seems farcical).

[cameronlite]

Sure, you can buy a relatively cheap analog watch with a cheap movement, or you can buy that Patek Philippe with a world class movement. It's like the Apple/Android argument - what's going on inside isn't the issue, it's the appearance, the external design that's in dispute. Rolex and Patek Philippe (and many others) manage to make devices as simple, in terms of functionality, as a watch, with huge variation in design and appearance, without tripping over each other's design rights. Why can't Samsung (according to Apple).

A) Apple's design rights in this case are far too vague
B) There are far more things you can customize on a watch without reducing the usability of it, with tablets you are far more limited

[Scott B]

I'd say it's more like Rolex trying to take replicas off the market, but not trying to prevent Patek Philippe from marketing world-class watches (and, as far as I'm concerned, better quality ones than Rolex).

But surely this is more analogous to the latter of your examples. Samsung, Moto and co aren't trying to deceive people into thinking they're buying an Apple product, but they are using what is the clearly optimal form-factor.

[Saracen]

But surely this is more analogous to the latter of your examples. Samsung, Moto and co aren't trying to deceive people into thinking they're buying an Apple product, but they are using what is the clearly optimal form-factor.

As I understand it, I'd agree that they're certainly not "pirating", i.e. pretending their product actually is an Apple product, but it seems that Apple are claiming they have followed Apple designs closely enough to appear to be very similar. If you have an iconic product and someone introduces something that is close enough to be taking advantage of that iconic style, then arguably, it's actionable.

Consider the example I gave earlier of the "Horrods" store bag. By copying the colour scheme and typeface of Harrods, they were, if you like, trying to ride on Harrods coattails, trying to impart a sense of cachet to their product by a psychological linkage to Harrods.

I can see a major battleground between Samsung and Apple being in the area of what is "features dictated by technical function."

If, for instance, buttons are placed where they are for that reason, it's not protectable. But if Apple have just designed a user interface that, by virtue of clever design, just feels right and works well, then it is.

[Saracen]

I don't think that changes what I said - in fact I agree with your definition - but Sammy et al are all trying to enter the very same market - their tablets are very similarly priced and they're looking for the same profit. The cost to them of closing the door is minimal right now - both monetarily and in terms of the perception of their brand (just look how people jump and and defend Apple like they were a dear family member) is a drop in the ocean. Premium products they may be, but they are indeed shifting many, many boxes at the same time - one has to admire them having the ability to do both.

You can buy cheap tablets - but they're crap - and hence why Apple sees them as no threat.

I still think this will be thrown out in time nonetheless (given the evidence thus far presented the whole thing seems farcical).

My comment was in relation to suggestions (maybe not by you) about Apple wanting the whole market, and your comment

"Whilst that's true, if you had the opportunity to keep a market for yourself you'd do it - even if it wasn't long term. "

I'd agree that if Apple can get 100% of their target market, they'd love to. I'd also agree that Sammy and Moto aren't going after the cheap end.

But that's why Apple won't want Sammy/Moto etc taking advantage of their IP-protected design.

Ultimately, it comes down to there being IP protections for designs, which may or may not apply in this case. If they do, Apple are entitled to protect therm, but if they don't, they should lost and that could be very expensive, because amongst other things,. is Samsung are injuncted from selling for a year or more, and Apple lose, they're on the hook for compensation for those lost sales and arguably, lost market position too. It's a high-stakes gamble to take an action like this, if you aren't very confident of your case.

[Unique]

I don't have a problem with Apple trying to protect "their look" - e.g. if Samsung made a phone that was a visual clone of iPhone4 then fine, I'd be quite content if Apple wanted to sue the pants off them. Similarly with the tablet - if we're talking about the tablet form factor device with the chrome/black surround, thin, single large button on the front and a smooth, curved mono-colour back - then that screams "iPad" to me. So if you've got Samsung, Motorola etc doing the same then fine fire away - sue the blighters! What I do have a problem with is with Apple trying to grab the entire "modern" tablet form factor - i.e. any thin, portable, rectangular, keyboard-less , battery-powered, network-capable, computing device - as their exclusive purview - yes, they did popularize the device family, but that's no justification for the legal strong-arming against all others that they seem to be aiming at.

I'd like to see Apple fail on this "technical function" caveat - but like you I think it unlikely. That said - although my knowledge in this area is microscopic, didn't there used to be (in UK at least) some benchmark where it was whether the man-in-the-street could distinguish? If a "commoner" could distinguish the two products, then the defence wins, otherwise the offending product is regarded as a "clone". And yes, I fully realise that this is the EU, so lord-only knows what yardstick is being applied.

Hmm, my jeans work fine. Based on my experience with Apple's testicle, sorry "technical", support so far if they made jeans I think a kilt would start to appeal...
... although if the current spell o' weather continues then I think an investment in a websuit would be more appropriate.

apparently apple are taking action against samsung for at least two phones that look like the iphone, i think the galaxy S and something else, from what i read

i'm not sure why everyone is so hung up about a single button though. if apple had that right and no-one else could make a tablet with a single button on the front, what do you think manufacturers would do? stick 2 or 3 buttons on. top and bottom or left and right. these are pretty easy changes to the design that wouldn't stop funtion. stick 5 bottons on. a left right and middle on both top and bottom. let users map them to be volume, mute, home or have combinations like the tablet equivilent of right clicking etc. hold two buttons for on and off. no need for side buttons

regarding jeans with buttons on the back, you guys are forgetting kriss kross aren't you. i tried to forget them too!

actually levis used to put rivets on the back pockets on jeans but they got complaints from schools that the rivets would scratch wooden chairs so they removed them. button flys are often covered, but not always. and who needs buttons when you got zips or a velcro fly like ZZ top? just more ways that you can use a bit of thought and make a design a little bit different to set yourself apart from others

[crossy]

I seem to be missing something massive here.
Single large front button:
- logical, appeals to both left and right handed people
- smooth, curved, mono-colour back, instead of a rainbow coloured back? Mono makes sense really! I must admit, i do prefer the back of my tablets to be hard and jagged. Certainly not smooth and curved, heavens no.
- chrome edging, alright, you can have that one....
- thin! thin! How can thin scream iPad to you?
The only thing you have is the chrome surround - everything else if just plain logical.

Front button is irrelevant - Honeycomb tablets (or at least the two I tried, plus the one I own) automatically flip the screen the right way if you turn them upside down. So buttons on left or right isn't a big deal. Personally I prefer the side buttons anyway, they fall under finger easier, plus you don't have that face button staring at you like a cyclop's eye - but that's just my preference.

Agree with the smooth back - it's just a bl**dy fingerprint magnet - I much prefer a nice grippy texture. A rare design "fail" perhaps?

The thinness bit isn't me - it's Apple - look at their ad's and you'll see that they claim "Thinner, lighter, faster, ...". Check http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad/ if you don't believe me. Personally I don't regard wafer thinness as a big plus - I prefer something with a little "heft" so it's easier to hold.

[aidanjt]

All of this is further proof that humanity has become a disgrace to itself.

[dangel]

All of this is further proof that humanity has become a disgrace to itself.

Still, look on the bright side eh?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

This post is interesting:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...5&postcount=68

[Unique]

This post is interesting:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...5&postcount=68

just because they displayed them first doesn't mean apple still don't hold the patents. the patents could be much older. some of the chinese factories can copy things incredibly fast

steve jobs said he started working on the ipad before the iphone, and that was 2007. apple also had one of the first tablet type devices with the epic failure that was the apple newton. i actually remember promo girls who had these at the time and it was the first time someone had something that diverted my attention away from the girls. an incredbible device at the time, but pretty unnecessary. i had an early psion organiser. was about the same weight as a 3.5" HD but held about 8k. yup 8k not 8mb or 8gb. had a 2 line display and ran spreadsheets, on 2 lines!

[aidanjt]

Patent laws have this little thing called 'prior art', nor do they apply to designs.

[crossy]

This post is interesting:http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...5&postcount=68

Yes, that is an interesting posting.

just because they displayed them first doesn't mean apple still don't hold the patents. the patents could be much older. some of the chinese factories can copy things incredibly fast

Hmm, not convinced that copying is necessarily the only answer. It's pretty obvious that if you give a couple of separate design teams a similar brief each, and a restricted set of components, that you'll end up with very similar designs. There are, of course, exceptions to this rule - like the IBM butterfly keyboard, etc.

regarding jeans with buttons on the back, you guys are forgetting kriss kross aren't you.

I'd love to forget kk - he's my brother... seriously! (different spelling of course)

[Unique]

Yes, that is an interesting posting.

Hmm, not convinced that copying is necessarily the only answer. It's pretty obvious that if you give a couple of separate design teams a similar brief each, and a restricted set of components, that you'll end up with very similar designs. There are, of course, exceptions to this rule - like the IBM butterfly keyboard, etc.

I'd love to forget kk - he's my brother... seriously! (different spelling of course)

but the designers aren't given a lego set and asked to make something. the restrictions would be budgetary rather than using specific components, and it's not like the inside parts will be the same, it's more the external look and the way they work that's the problem for apple. in fact the ipad copies sometimes have better technical specs, more ram or faster processor but you can't tell that by looking t them

[Mossy]

Think the general feeling here is Apple is in the wrong unless you actually own Apple to which your feelings will be to defend them no matter what.

Yes there are copies out there ones which look like they have been made to look exactly like the iPad may with cheaper materials but these don't sell as generally they are not as good yet Apple leave them alone. Theres only one reason why they are after Samsung and its not because their Tab resembles a similar shape and design.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

just because they displayed them first doesn't mean apple still don't hold the patents. the patents could be much older. some of the chinese factories can copy things incredibly fast

READ THE POST BEFORE ANSWERING NEXT TIME!!

Many of the tablets are from well known companies who displayed the designs BEFORE APPLE even ANNOUNCED let alone DISPLAYED the iPAD design.

On top of this your prior arguments are irrelevant as it means these designs were not copied from Apple but were produced independently. The whole crux of Apple's argument is the"they copied us" mantra.

Want to see how "original" the iPad design is??

Original iPad patent drawings.



Guess which one was shown in 1994 in the Knightrider movie??



Tablet in 2001:A Space Odyssey which was made in 1968. But before the film was shown to the public, people made designs for the film you know!!



I have worked in science and it is not un-heard of for similar discoveries and inventions to be made independently of each other within a short period. If you have multiple teams working on the same problem then in many cases this can happen.

Think the general feeling here is Apple is in the wrong unless you actually own Apple to which your feelings will be to defend them no matter what.

Its nothing but classic flip-flop TBH. I even know mates who own Apple products who agree with the sentiment Apple are taking the mickey.