Analysis - How often do you check your bank statements?

[HEXUS]

People are paying for monthly membership fees without realising; make sure you're not one of them.

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[scaryjim]

it's not reasonable to expect people to read all of these often very lengthy Ts and Cs

Why not? You are essentially signing a contract when you agree to T&Cs, so you *should* always read them in full. The fact that most people (myself included!) are too lazy to read them doesn't make that expectation unreasonable. I guess one of the risks of online transactions is that you can't just say "are there any other charges?" and get an answer, like you could in person or on the phone. I guess the real lesson to learn is always read the T&Cs

[gill hynes]

Dear Hexus Forum Members,

I am responding to your recent posting regarding the Shopper Discounts & Rewards programme. I am very sorry that you have not been able to reach us. Due to the adverse weather conditions our offices, along with many others in the UK, have been closed today.

We are more than happy to answer any queries regarding our programme. Please do contact us on our customer service number - free phone 0808 234 1539, or if you have are specific press office queries on 020 7291 8724, and we will answer any queries regarding the programme you may have.

Gill Hynes
Marketing Director
Shopper Discounts & Rewards

[Bob Crabtree]

Why not? You are essentially signing a contract when you agree to T&Cs, so you *should* always read them in full. The fact that most people (myself included!) are too lazy to read them doesn't make that expectation unreasonable. I guess one of the risks of online transactions is that you can't just say "are there any other charges?" and get an answer, like you could in person or on the phone. I guess the real lesson to learn is always read the T&Cs

Well, since the terms and conditions that you are confronted with when installing software are, I reckon, not going to be enforceable in UK courts, it's perhaps not surprising that people over here click right through stuff on the web - it's become a sort of reflex.

Here are the terms of service from Shopper Discount & Rewards' web site.

They're clear as mud, in my view.

This is my favourite section, cos it doesn't even say how much money you're going to pay and then adds insult to injury by saying that you can actually only read the original terms that you agreed to on the original web site where you got had - and, I'd be pretty sure those will only be visible at the point where you went to that feeder site originally.

"Membership Fee: Member will be charged a monthly, bi-monthly (every two months), quarterly or annual membership fee. The amount of this fee and its frequency is explained to Member at the time that Member joins Shopper Discounts & Rewards (the "Membership Fee"). The Membership Fee will be billed automatically to Member's designated payment vehicle, which may include credit or debit card, ISP account, DDA account, debit account, mortgage account, and/or other or charge account(each a "Billing Device") during the initial membership term and each renewal term. WL may from time to time change the Membership Fee during any renewal term (but will not change the Membership Fee in relation to the initial term). Member will be notified at least twenty eight (28) days in advance of any revised charge applying."

Furthermore and unlike reputable companies, it seems that this mob never sends out the terms or any type of follow-up email - knowing full well, of course, that a large number of people won't notice the small amount of money being syphoned out each month.

If - rather than just wading in with an off-the-cuff comment - you do take the trouble to read around what this outfit is up to - and what the firms that provide the links are letting it do - I reckon you'll really understand why right thinking people think that this is a scam and one that has been widely exposed over a number of years but is still going on up until this day.

Someone needs to stop this sort of stuff cos it seems this mob is far from being alone - it's only one of a number who are running such a businesses which, quite understandably really, leave people feeling scammed - and until the government and other authorities take some action, such firms are going to keep on lifting money - huge sums of money in total - out of the accounts of people who've no idea at all that this is a happening until after the event, leaving them feeling 'had'.

Bob C

[PeterStoba]

TBH, I don't read T&C's, how silly, I know. I do check my bank regularly though, every 2 days atleast!

[koocha]

So which companies offer this "promotion" with purchases then, so I know who to avoid

[Saracen]

So which companies offer this "promotion" with purchases then, so I know who to avoid

From reading around various websites, it's been reported as occurring with Easyjet, Interflora, Virgin, Vistaprint , Allposters, National Express, electricshopping.com, Millet sports and a lot more.

To be clear, these are companies that people say have been doing it, but as it hasn't happened to me, all it is is people claiming it.

Also, it may be that companies were doing it, but have stopped. Again, I don't know.

There's at least one company that trialled it, but say they stopped it, saying

partnership with that company was ceased as we did not believe the offer was as clear as it should have been, coupled with complaints from our customers.

I have no way of knowing if any of the companies mentioned above actually did use it, though I've also no reason to believe that the claims made that they did were false, and no way to know if those that did still do, or have ceased.

What I do know is that there's a LOT of anger about this operation from people that believe, and proclaim very loudly, they've been conned, scammed, stolen from, and so on. A LOT of users are saying they didn't know they were signing up, didn't want to sign up, wouldn't have signed up and are furious they ended up signed up. Many have also suggested that though the money disappears from their bank account, they've never been notified of the "discounts" that club membership is supposed to confer. Again, it's possible that mails were sent, but if you didn't know you were part of a membership club, it's fair to suppose people might classify it as spam, and immediately stick it in a mail blacklist. I certainly would.

Then there's the question of whether it's legal or not. I'm not a lawyer, but I'd guess it probably is, though perhaps barely. I certainly have my own opinion on whether it's ethical, and it looks like a deliberately obscure process, from what I have read. But not having had it happen to me, it's all third-hand information.

Also, according to various websites, people that complain generally get their "subscription" payments back, though allegedly, you have to ask (or insist) on it. But then it seems it happens without too much fuss.

One way of looking at that is that it's a company that offers conscientious customer service, and doesn't want to take money from people that don't want what they sell. Another way of looking at it is that they don't want it to get tested in court if they refused and someone took legal action .... as, sooner or later, someone no doubt would.

Ultimately, the moral of the story is caveat emptor. Buyer beware. And old adage says not to look a gift horse in the mouth. Personally, I not only look it in the mouth, but I check it has all it's teeth, walk round and count the legs, get it checked out by a vet and have blood samples taken and checked and get a quote on stabling it before I'd accept a gift horse.

We should all be much more cynical about what we do,and if someone is offering you a gift online, or discount, etc, they want something. It might just be customer loyalty, it might be a hook to get you to come back and buy again, it might be a way to get your personal details for marketing campaigns. Or you might be signing up for something. So read the terms and conditions. Being an arch cynic, I do read them ..... or I just refuse any such "offers" out of hand. The upside is I don't think I'll get caught with this sort of thing. The downside is I spend more time that I like reading legal drivel in the T&Cs. But if you're an adult, you need to be aware that in most circumstances, you can end up being held to contracts you willingly enter into and "I didn't read it" won't necessarily save you.

Personally, it seems to me that this may fall under the pretty new Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, including Reg 6. But then, as I'm not a lawyer, that's merely speculation (and maybe wishful thinking) on my part.

[Scott B]

Good points about the Ts and Cs. Of course we all should read the terms of an agreement before we enter into it, but if those terms take up more than a two or three paragraphs it's often just not practical.

Does anybody know if of any legal precendents where Ts and Cs were considered invalid because they were either too long and/or too impenetrable?

[Bob Crabtree]

Does anybody know if of any legal precendents where Ts and Cs were considered invalid because they were either too long and/or too impenetrable?

Or too well concealed?

Oh, and folk should look at Scott's latest piece on this subject and at the related forum thread.

Bob C

[Saracen]

Good points about the Ts and Cs. Of course we all should read the terms of an agreement before we enter into it, but if those terms take up more than a two or three paragraphs it's often just not practical.

Does anybody know if of any legal precendents where Ts and Cs were considered invalid because they were either too long and/or too impenetrable?

I'm not aware of specific precedents, no. The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 does have a fair bit to say about fairness and the use of language, though. There's a fairly detailed guide to them from the OFT here, though it does stress that this isn't law, it's the OFT's opinion on the meaning of the law. That's persuasive, but certainly not conclusive. The UTCCR itself is on OPSI.

There have also been a whole series of bits of legislation on pricing, and what you can and can't do, as well as Codes of Practice from BERR, for example. But I haven't followed it, so beyond saying that over the years, some have been superceded and other bits repealed and replaced, I can't add much.

But judging by the number of organisations that have taken an interest in this, ranging from more than one national newspaper to Trading Standards, I rather imagine that if it was an overt breach of any law, action would have been taken by now. It might, however, be an exemplar of the kind of activity that results in new laws being created, such as laws being changed in relation to unsolicited goods, up to and including the provisions in the Distance Selling Regs in that regard.

Personally, as long as it's clear right up front that people are subscribing to a service, then I don't see a problem. But judging by the amount of people screaming about charges they know nothing about, it certainly suggests it isn't, or perhaps wasn't, at all clear.

What I've read about the way this is done certainly sounds pretty obnoxious to me, but not having had it happen to me, that's merely based on anecdotal evidence.

[koocha]

Checked my statements and they've been taking £8 a month since March 2008. Sent them a snotty email and got my 'membership fees' refunded and my account cancelled

[Singh400]

I check mine everyday

[koocha]

I check mine everyday

I don't because it depresses me