What a load of bull.. (belgium GP)

[this_is_gav]

The problem, Gav, is the nature of the incident compared to the effect of the penalty. Did Lewis gain an advantage? I don't know, but for the sake of argument, let's assume he did. The rules says that if you gain an advantage, you get penalised. But the point is, rules are supposed to be applied with the exercise of judgement, and for the penalty to be consistent with the "offence". If you're going to apply the absolute letter of the law when it comes to "advantage", then you could argue that if a driver gained a nanosecond over what would have happened, or to be more precise, over what you predict or model would have happened, then he gets penalised. Because, after all, a nanosecond of advantage is still an advantage, isn't it?

It's written in the stone. If they chose to penalise Lewis then they could only give a drive-through penalty or, if after the race, a 25 second penalty. I've no idea if an appeal will allow a more flexible penalty to be applied, so it may get reduced (or increased) yet, but the stewards could only give a drive through or 25 second penalty if they adjudged him to have gained an advantage through going off the track.

I said on page 1 that the penalty was too harsh for the crime, so I do agree, but it's not something they can adjust (at least during the event). Perhaps that is something which could be addressed at the end of the season.

I've already explained several times in this thread as to how he could have avoided the accident (again, check the onboard to see how little he did attempt it), chose an option few have all weekend, and how he profited from it, so I'm not going to go over that again unless a new point is raised.

[Saracen]

It's written in the stone. If they chose to penalise Lewis then they could only give a drive-through penalty or, if after the race, a 25 second penalty. I've no idea if an appeal will allow a more flexible penalty to be applied, so it may get reduced (or increased) yet, but the stewards could only give a drive through or 25 second penalty if they adjudged him to have gained an advantage through going off the track.

I said on page 1 that the penalty was too harsh for the crime, so I do agree, but it's not something they can adjust (at least during the event). Perhaps that is something which could be addressed at the end of the season.

I've already explained several times in this thread as to how he could have avoided the accident (again, check the onboard to see how little he did attempt it), chose an option few have all weekend, and how he profited from it, so I'm not going to go over that again unless a new point is raised.

I don't want you to go over it again, because I keep saying, I don't care about the outcome of the event, or who won the race - from my first post to the last, I'm talking about the effect the way the authorities that run F1, be it the individual stewards or the FIA, have on what is supposed to be racing.

These rules aren't carved in stone, they weren't handed downed on Mount Sinai as the True Word of the Creator, and they aren't immutable laws of physics. They're the rules created by the governing body, and they're rules that allow Schumacher to win a GP by serving his 10-sec stop and go in the pit lane on the final lap, effectively all but avoiding the penalty, and without a shadow of a doubt avoiding the intended full effect of it, yet they take the race away from Hamilton over the effect of a 'less than they require' reduction of momentum, and may yet cost him the world championship as a result.

That's my point - the rules stink! That is what has ruined F1 for me - the idiotic rules and the idiots that created them. They have created a set of rules which, given the technology in the cars, means that at least among the leading teams, overtaking is extremely difficult without trying moves like this, by which I mean the approach to and entry into the chicane. They've got a set of rules that mean if you can get a better fuel stop, for instance, it could well be what determines the race. Who cares which pit crew can shave a second or two off of changing tyres and topping up fuel? Who watches F1 to see pit stop Olympics? We watch, in theory at least, to see racing, though in my view, it's certainly been sparse enough in recent years. Yet, the rules are designed in such a way that overtaking is monumentally tricky. Why? Because the cars are too damn fast for the circuits. Cut the performance, level the playing field, and you'd end up with a race that actually contained racing, instead of whizzing round the track in a neat line, like turbo-charged mother duck and ducklings.

And if someone does try an actual racing manoeuvre, and we get two drivers pitted against each other with both displaying awesome skill and determination, we end up with a farce like this. What's the message for the future? If a driver pulls an attempt and the stewards perceive the slightest advantage if it comes unstuck, you can kiss the race (and maybe World Championship) goodbye? Then the message is for drivers to not even try it, and just settle for second place. We might almost just launch the race, and have the finish line just after the first corner.

And, did it actually give an advantage? Even that depends on you look at it. Would Hamilton have got past anyway, at some other point? From the relative speeds when he caught up, and the relative handling in the conditions, it sure looked like it and if he didn't, then it would be because it's extremely difficult to pass even when you've got a car (given tyres, conditions, etc) that is clearly markedly faster. In other words, it's precisely the same damn rules that set up the conditions where drivers have to rely on taking chances where they can that are used so punitively and disproportionately.

Given the design and size of circuits, and given that even comparatively large differences in relative performance, the differential is still so small as to make normal skill-based overtaking almost impossible, because for so much of the track, there's just one line and getting off it causes a huge difference in potential compared to the comparative difference in car performance that it more than negates the relative performance difference.

They can't have it both ways. Either modify the spec rules to allow for actual racing, or be prepared for drivers to have to try to get past given the slightest hint of an opportunity, because if they don't, we'd have no racing at all, and there's precious little as it is.

[this_is_gav]

Have to say I agree with all of that. And you have to say Hamilton would have overtaken Kimi, which made it all the more baffling as to why he continued the move.

We need tracks back the way they used to be to some degree. Deterrents from cutting corners, not just finger waving, fines or penalties afterwards. Obviously grass is a no-no for safety reasons, but they need something in there to stop people taking shortcuts. That would minimise situations and discussions such as these.

[schmunk]

like turbo-charged mother duck and ducklings.

Technically, a naturally aspirated but highly tuned mother duck and ducklings...

[stevie lee]

one thing you are all forgetting.. it was chucking it down with rain with a few laps to go. they could have ended the race due to dangerous driving conditions. If lewis hadn't tried to overtake there and then he would have probably come second. lewis was probably thinking that at the time hence the overtake move. He might not have had the extra lap to overtake into the first corner.

[sleepyhead]

Have to say I agree with all of that. And you have to say Hamilton would have overtaken Kimi, which made it all the more baffling as to why he continued the move.

We need tracks back the way they used to be to some degree. Deterrents from cutting corners, not just finger waving, fines or penalties afterwards. Obviously grass is a no-no for safety reasons, but they need something in there to stop people taking shortcuts. That would minimise situations and discussions such as these.

I vote for gravel traps and sniper fire. Go off track, you get shot at.

As stevie lee mentioned, which I agree with, is that Hamilton may not have had another opportunity if the stewards decided to end the race 2/3 laps early.

[ACiD303]

one thing you are all forgetting.. it was chucking it down with rain with a few laps to go. they could have ended the race due to dangerous driving conditions. If lewis hadn't tried to overtake there and then he would have probably come second. lewis was probably thinking that at the time hence the overtake move. He might not have had the extra lap to overtake into the first corner.

Although stopping the GP is always at the back of strategists minds, I don't think it was anywhere near the scale of stopping the GP. The attrition wasn't high, cars could easily stop for inters (which proved to be more than sufficient, as well as ideal, tyre choice near the end) - and had Alonso come in just a lap early he may have been in with a chance of winning the GP (before Lewis's penalty). If you look at Fuji last year, those were conditions which were easily debatable whether or not they should've continued, Brazil 2003 was called off because nobody was getting round without accident, Webber and Alonso's accidents crying for the race to be stopped. Spa was easily manageable.

And also I don't think Lewis's current driving maturity would lead him to think "they might stop the race so I better overtake now", at the moment he's still an all out and all or nothing driver.

[Zak33]

/\ true....and besides, Hamilton was praying for a bit of rain... he said so himself.

And also true, Hamilton's maturity is a little lacking, as yuo'd expect from such an awesome talent so young.

[Betty_Swallocks]

I'd been an F1 fan for years .... decades, in fact, but had got totally bored with it in the last few years. I had just about started to regain a bit of interest, but it looks as if the powers that be still have the same mindset.

Once again Saracen saves me the trouble of typing a long message by saying pretty much everything I was going to say.

I used to be very interested in F1 years ago in the Mansell/Senna era but the lack of actual real racing dampened my interest to the level of my present indifference. I watched a race the other day which had more excitement than the last 5 seasons of F1 put together. It was the Ginetta series with most of the racers being teenagers. Close racing with lots of overtaking. Had me on the edge of my seat


F1 isn't racing. Hasn't been for years. Even back then when I was religously watching every race there was only the occasional exciting race. Mansell making up 30 seconds to win the British GP comes to mind.

It's all about politics and money. Mainly money.

[this_is_gav]

Here is a FANTASTIC video from onboard both Hamilton and Kimi for the last lap and a half of Kimi's race. It's epic stuff.

[staffsMike]

Yep that is a great video, amazing in fact. But it's tainted

Also shows very well how I was saying that Kimi didn't get back on the track at the earliest opportunity (around 2:10) .. but hamilton does

[sleepyhead]

Absolutely bloody brilliant video

All races should be like that

[stevie lee]

Here is a FANTASTIC video from onboard both Hamilton and Kimi for the last lap and a half of Kimi's race. It's epic stuff.

that kind of shows the theory of mine in my previous post.. hamilton could have been thinking that sort of thing might happen - raikonnen crashing in high speed section, cars going off track - they could have ended the race and the lap positions of previous lap stand therefore he needs to overtake into the last corner even if he has over shot it a few times during the race in the dry.

i admit i am clutching at wild theories and doing some guess work and hamilton might not think like that, but it kind of makes sense.

at least it gave you a different point of view and way of thinking

[dangel]

Lauda, who won titles for both Ferrari and McLaren, admitted that the officials' actions left him baffled and frustrated.

"I do not understand this completely wrong decision," he told BBC Radio Five Live.

"Everything was explained perfectly: Lewis had an advantage, but then he let him go by, then he simply out-braked him into the corner.

"There was no slipstreaming involved, nothing.

"Just think about it: If Lewis had stayed behind Kimi through the chicane, he would have passed him in front of the pits, because Lewis and the McLaren, at that time in the race in the wet, were so much quicker.

"So I do not understand this decision, and it's really bad for the sport because people watching will not watch any more because of this stupid decision."

Like Lauda, Stewart believes the officiating system in F1 – with a permanent FIA race director (Charlie Whiting) and advisor (Alan Donnelly) but different stewards from race to race – has caused inconsistent decision-making and needs to be overhauled.

“F1 attracts the largest capital investment in sport, but it is being overseen by people who are not doing it full-time and we get inconsistent decisions,” said Stewart.

“In football, rugby, tennis or cricket you have professional referees and umpires who do their jobs day in, day out, and you have accountability.

“We need that in motorsport.”

“Raikkonen behaved very robustly to defend his position and left Hamilton with no option but to miss the chicane,” he said.

“He was simply doing all he could to avoid an accident.

“Yes, he gained a position, but he slowed immediately and handed it back, as the rules require, then passed [Raikkonen] subsequently.

Maybe I don't know bog all about F1 but they do. All I can say is that was some of the most exciting racing i've seen in F1 in a darn long time - real 'edge of the seat' stuff. And the FIA have basically (somehow) managed to not only fail to capitalise on it but turn it into a grand coffin nailing expedition on the sport as a whole.

[chuckskull]

Got to agree with Jackie and Lauda. There needs to be a massive shake-up in the steward system. Not fair or consistent at the mo, just being consistent would be an improvement.

[Saracen]

Got to agree with Jackie and Lauda. There needs to be a massive shake-up in the steward system. Not fair or consistent at the mo, just being consistent would be an improvement.

..... not to mention a flippin' miracle.

I agree with Lauda and Stewart too .... as may be obvious by now.