Vegetable Oil

[Rave]

I put five gallons of diesel in my old Mondeo today- £27. That's two weeks of commuting at 35mpg. I thought then that I should probably pump up my bike tyres and start cycling in- £2 saved per day for the sake of an extra 10 minutes on my commute. But then I noticed that the price of veg oil has come right down since last year- Tescos are doing a 3l bottle of Rape Seed Oil for £2.65, or two for a fiver- that's <84p a litre.

So- half and half petro-diesel to veg oil- would that work? AFAIK from reading the Haynes manual, it's a direct injection engine, and using SVO in them causes the piston rings to gum up and start failing to seal. But the car's only worth about £400 anyway, and a replacement 1.8TD engine would probably cost me £25 on ebay (plus a weekend's work to swap it that I'd probably screw up). Weather's warming up now so the veg oil would stay liquid no probs. And that brings my overall cost per litre close to £1, which is what I've been used to.

Thoughts?

[oolon]

Be careful if you by large amounts as I believe it is illegal to use other things to fuel your car without paying the fuel duty on it. Here i a link on the HMRC web site.

[malfunction]

Am I missing something here?

At current diesel prices - let's assume 120p per litre - it costs you £2 a day (presumably £10 a week) in fuel to commute to work - i.e. 1.67 litres of diesel. If you could bring the cost down to £1 a litre (legally or not) you'd be spending £1.67 a day / £8.34 a week instead.

Is it really worth the effort?

It would presumably be a lot cheaper to buy waste / used oil but then you have to invest more time and money (no idea how much off the top of my head) to get it into a state where it's usable so again I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

Have to ask if you would be better off just selling the Mondeo for £400 and buying something smaller of similar vintage to get higher mpg (and possibly lower insurance)? 35mpg for a diesel seems pretty bad.

[finlay666]

Be careful if you by large amounts as I believe it is illegal to use other things to fuel your car without paying the fuel duty on it. Here i a link on the HMRC web site.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsP...ment#P105_8670

Note: If you have produced less than 2,500 litres in the last 12 months, or if you expect to produce less than this amount in the next 12 months, you may be an exempt producer. If you are an exempt producer you are only required to keep production records (see item 2 in the above table). See paragraph 4.2.1 for more information.

I think he will be under 2500 litres a year as it's personal use clearly

Have to ask if you would be better off just selling the Mondeo for £400 and buying something smaller of similar vintage to get higher mpg (and possibly lower insurance)? 35mpg for a diesel seems pretty bad.

It's not for an old diesel with city driving


Rave I'd have a look on the biodiesel forums, some places suggest replacing the pump depending if it's Lucas/Bosch and also if you can actually use neat oil with a small amount of solvent to keep it viscous

[kalniel]

I'd just go for a 5-10% veg component and take the edge off the cost rather than risk a 50:50 split.

Anyway you're still quite lucky - I'm nearer £50 quid a fortnight

[Rave]

Am I missing something here?

At current diesel prices - let's assume 120p per litre - it costs you £2 a day (presumably £10 a week) in fuel to commute to work - i.e. 1.67 litres of diesel. If you could bring the cost down to £1 a litre (legally or not) you'd be spending £1.67 a day / £8.34 a week instead.

Is it really worth the effort?

Buying veg oil and pouring it into the tank isn't really much effort, since I'd be in the supermarket anyway.

Anyway a penny saved is a penny earned. I really would be better off cycling though, suppose I'd better get my act together.

Have to ask if you would be better off just selling the Mondeo for £400 and buying something smaller of similar vintage to get higher mpg (and possibly lower insurance)? 35mpg for a diesel seems pretty bad.

I could do that but then I wouldn't have a Mondeo sized car. Which is a useful thing to have for all sorts of reasons.

[finlay666]

I'd just go for a 5-10% veg component and take the edge off the cost rather than risk a 50:50 split.

Anyway you're still quite lucky - I'm nearer £50 quid a fortnight

As I said it's best to check on biodiesel forums, some engines have been shown to accept 100% veg oil (usually adding some white spirit and diesel in winter to prevent congealing)

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...base/index.php
That is worth a look, the search function is terrible though, and it's not incredibly comprehensive

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=223 25% straight veg oil there

Other fords to look at: (just based on the old non TDCI duratec engines)
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...view.php?id=44
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=114
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=118
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=278
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=307
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=362
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=384
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=384
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...iew.php?id=429

Best check what your engine/pump is like compared to those cars as I have a feeling some of the engines/pumps may be the same as yours despite being a different car

[Konan555]

I've thought about it. I mean, Morrison's sell me 10% bio anyway I run up about £50 a week at the moment. It'd certainly take the sting out of it.

I'm a little cautious as I may have one of the fuel pumps that's renowned for having seal problems without being attacked by biofuel. There are a lot of reports on that site saying that people have been running veg ok, but I just get the feeling they may be a little sugar coated.

I've had LPG before now. Whilst it runs fine, I ran into a lot of problems finding a garage with any knowledge on running gas. Ultimately, life at 50p a litre ended thanks to some dodgy Italian electronics.

[binaryknight]

not so clued up on the veg oil thing but on the newer diesel engines its suposed to be avoided?
though after putting £20 of petrol into a diesel smax the other week veg oil might have been a better option lol

[Rave]

Mine's an old indirect injection engine. I haven't tried it yet but I will at some point.

[Rave]

Well, that point is now. Yesterday I was roped in to taking the wife and in-laws to Ikea. We stopped off at Tescos first as I needed a few things- and veg oil was still £2.50 for 3 litres. I didn't have enough fuel in the tank to get to Ikea and back and to work today, so I bought three litres and bunged 'em in. Car ran fine on what I would estimate was a 15-25% veg oil mix. So today I still needed to fill up. Stopped at a Shell garage on the way home from work and put in 12 litres. Unfortunately I didn't notice that I'd pulled up at a pump that only sold 'V-Power' diesel, so I ended up paying a frankly ridiculous £1.27 a litre, eroding my savings considerably. Then I parked up in the only free car park in Catford (outside Lidl), found that Lidl oil was more expensive than Tescos, and so walked the 1/4 mile to Tescos where I bought 12 litres of veg oil for a tenner. I then carried it the quarter of a mile back to the car along with two 1kg boxes of cat food, a jar of mayonnaise and a bottle of fabric conditioner (I just can't be bothered arguing with my wife about the complete futility of 'conditioning' clothes any more ). By the time I got back to the car, my arms were about ready to fall off.

Then I got home, and found that my original plan of decanting the veg oil into the petrol can that's been in the boot of my car since I got it was not going to work, because the spout for the can was missing ). So I just had to stand in the road decanting the bottles one by one, which took about 10 minutes. Due to the design of my filler cap and the bottles, 2-3ml of oil remains in each bottle and is very difficult to get out. If I can be bothered I may decant the rest very slowly into a jug to save wasting it.

So: assuming that veg oil is equivalent to diesel on a volume/energy basis, I've got about £14.50's worth of fuel for a tenner. But it was quite a bit of hassle. If the car runs fine on this tank, next time I'll pay the 80p to park next to Tesco and get in 50 or 100 bottles, and also invest in (or make) a suitable funnel.

[Tumble]

HMRC won't like it....

[finlay666]

HMRC won't like it....

Tough

You get something like 5000 litres in a personal allowance before you pay duty/tax

edit: it's 2500 litres

[Tumble]

not for use as road fuel though - that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[finlay666]

not for use as road fuel though - that's a whole different kettle of fish.

You still get Personal fuel production allowance before tax is payable = 2,500 litres

Following a review in late 2006,[11] HM Revenue & Customs has announced changes regarding the administration and collection of excise duty of biofuels and other fuel substitutes (Veg Oil). The changes came into effect on June 30, 2007. There is no longer a requirement to register to pay duty on vegetable oil used as road fuel for those who "produce" or use less than 2,500 litres per year.[12] For those producing over this threshold the biodiesel rate now applies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetab...l#cite_note-11

Can't find the link on hm revenue as it's changed

Closest link is:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief1810.htm

What if I produce less than 2,500 litres per annum and am classified as an exempt producer?

The provisions relating to small producers are not affected.

As long as it's for personal use it's fine

So: assuming that veg oil is equivalent to diesel on a volume/energy basis, I've got about £14.50's worth of fuel for a tenner. But it was quite a bit of hassle. If the car runs fine on this tank, next time I'll pay the 80p to park next to Tesco and get in 50 or 100 bottles, and also invest in (or make) a suitable funnel.

Can you not try a cash and carry for some cheap veg oil?

[GT-R]

HMRC won't like it....

They don't mind anymore (see above posts) they changed their policy at around 2007 iirc.