VW in US about to be slapped with mammoth emissions fine

[kalniel]

Also of note - it's not the entire VW diesel line - just the Jetta and Passat, so it's not some witch hunt as intimated in a couple of posts... and this isn't exactly new... the first recalls on these vehicles were last December. And VW isn't screaming innocent victim here. They've just quietly made all the vehicles in question unavailable. So it kind of makes a person go hmmmm... maybe they weren't playing on the up and up... it wouldn't be the first time, foreign or American made.

+ Golf + Audi A3 (and presumably, SEAT Leon, Skoda Octavia if they are sold in that market)

What gets me is it's long been accepted that manufacturers cheat in emissions tests over here - they're allowed to have cars in all sorts of conditions that they aren't sold in - special oils, tyre prep, taped seams (even missing wingmirrors I think I read). In older days they used have special throttle maps that gave a dead spot at the old fixed speeds, so it looks like the modern equivalent is to detect testing conditions (fixed speed, low load?) and map equivalently. So nothing new and I'm glad someone has taken them up on it - even if inititated for anticompetitive reasons (Ford are massively guilty of unrealistic test figures over here, but it's allowed).

[DeludedGuy]

MPG Figures are always dodgy, I never seem to get near what manufacturers state - could just be that I have a heavy right foot...

[Knoxville]

not the exahust fumes... the rear fuel tank and axle danger from America

Stick, wrong end of

I would be stunned if this wasn't just a continuation of something they do in Europe to game the system here.

But then, I would also suspect that all the manufacturers are gaming the system. Perhaps governments need better rules.

Maybe governments should be pushing legislation for long term goals instead of short term goals...

Land Rover have designed (or purchased from Ford/BMW) at least a dozen different diesel powerplants in the last twenty years. Yes I'm talking about Land Rover again because I know bugger all about bugger all else

That's a new engine every two years give or take. Developing new engines isn't cheap either and even those bought off the shelf from elsewhere need testing and possibly modifying for different applications than those for which they were originally intended. I'm not going to waffle on about Landys, that's just an example...

Manufacturers across the board have spent a lot of money, a lot of years and a lot of brain power coming up with slightly more efficient ways to burn a resource we won't have for much longer in the grand scheme of things. There has to be a point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in doesn't there? A point where that money would be better invested in a long term solution i.e EV's that are more practical or renewable energy sources? Shouldn't legislation be pushing us towards that goal rather than saving us half a gram of Co2 here and there?

[DanceswithUnix]

Interestingly in the Ars article on the subject they say the BMW X5 that was tested passed OK: http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2015/0...heres-the-end/

So my previous guess was wrong, they don't all do it.

[GuidoLS]

+ Golf + Audi A3 (and presumably, SEAT Leon, Skoda Octavia if they are sold in that market)

Audi never publicly broke down the sales differences between the gas and diesel versions, so hard numbers aren't really out there, but everything I've looked at suggests that it's 10:1 gas:diesel, or roughly 2k diesel A3's sold in sales year 2015 - not a huge number in comparison to the VW's.

As for the Golf -

The problem is that there aren't enough 2015 Golfs on dealer lots yet, and people are waiting for them. That's why Golf sales tanked in July. A search on Cars.com reveals just 889 2015 Golfs on dealer lots at the moment in the U.S. Buyers are probably holding off until the new ones come in.

That's 889 in total. Even with a 50/50 split, that leaves no more than 450 of the diesel version in the US, so that's (fortunately for VW) not even a statistical blip in overall numbers. The other 2 models you listed aren't brands that are sold here in the US.

What gets me is it's long been accepted that manufacturers cheat in emissions tests over here - they're allowed to have cars in all sorts of conditions that they aren't sold in - special oils, tyre prep, taped seams (even missing wingmirrors I think I read). In older days they used have special throttle maps that gave a dead spot at the old fixed speeds, so it looks like the modern equivalent is to detect testing conditions (fixed speed, low load?) and map equivalently. So nothing new and I'm glad someone has taken them up on it - even if inititated for anticompetitive reasons (Ford are massively guilty of unrealistic test figures over here, but it's allowed).

That's what caused this discovery to happen - roughly 3 years ago, our EPA really cranked down hard on requirements, and finally had an administration that got them the money to start testing the way it should be. It was also the first time that our standards were tougher than EU standards - to the point that VW actually pulled many of their models of the market for 2 years, until they came up with this 'solution' for emissions.

Again, most of this isn't really new news - it's just busting out hard now because the US is mostly over the episode with GM and their billion dollar fiasco with ignition switches, and they haven't quite gotten around to burning Takata at the stake (yet - I'm betting there will be criminal charges here), so there's a slight lull in that news front. Ever since the Pinto, the US has been pretty stringent on what can be on the road. It's not perfect because the funding is still a political football, but it's a lot better than it used to be, on many fronts.

[shaithis]

Interestingly in the Ars article on the subject they say the BMW X5 that was tested passed OK: http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2015/0...heres-the-end/

Could be due to what Knox stated.....they sell their engines to multiple manufacturers and are therefore accountable to them for performance/emissions.

Do VW make engines for anyone else? Are they also in cahoots?

[Andy3536]

Could be due to what Knox stated.....they sell their engines to multiple manufacturers and are therefore accountable to them for performance/emissions.

Do VW make engines for anyone else? Are they also in cahoots?

VW as a group encompasses. Seat, Audi, Bently and Skoda. Aswell as others.
That will be the next thing, as they all use largly (mabee not Bently?? ) the same engines. All the other Brands under the VW group will be under scrutiny.

[peterb]

So all these cars will be recalled to have the engine management software replaced so they meet the emission standards, and will take a hit in performance (although maybe an improvement in economy) but if I'd bought a car on the backs of performance and that is now compromised, I'd be miffed, to the extent of ignoring the recall (although I suppose the emission tester can log the firmware version in use)

[GuidoLS]

So all these cars will be recalled to have the engine management software replaced so they meet the emission standards, and will take a hit in performance (although maybe an improvement in economy) but if I'd bought a car on the backs of performance and that is now compromised, I'd be miffed, to the extent of ignoring the recall (although I suppose the emission tester can log the firmware version in use)

I obviously can't speak to how the UK does things, but if there's a recall here, you can bet the emissions testing stations will be looking for proper software identification, so ignoring it is really not an option, unless you live in one of those areas that doesn't do emissions testings.

It was also revealed that with the software trick not enabled, the engines in question were kicking out some 40x the allowed amount of whatever nasties they test for, so I'd almost be willing to wager that it will be more than just a software change.

I think the only thing left in question is who is going to take a bigger chunk out of VW's butt - the US EPA or the EU whatever they call their regulatory agency. And there's a good possibility of jail time for someone(s). This was willful fraud, to the tune of multiple millions of dollars in the US alone - and reports are that the issue is MUCH bigger in the EU.

[kalniel]

So all these cars will be recalled to have the engine management software replaced so they meet the emission standards, and will take a hit in performance (although maybe an improvement in economy) but if I'd bought a car on the backs of performance and that is now compromised, I'd be miffed, to the extent of ignoring the recall (although I suppose the emission tester can log the firmware version in use)

In which case, the car was missold and you'd probably be entitled to a refund. More likely they will retrofit whatever improvements they can in order to claw back performance to approach levels before the cleaner emissions.

[peterb]

In which case, the car was missold and you'd probably be entitled to a refund. More likely they will retrofit whatever improvements they can in order to claw back performance to approach levels before the cleaner emissions.

Certainly agree with the mis-selling - I can almost here the class action lawyers in the US dusting off their suits ready for a feeding frenzy. I wonder if VW can reduce emissions AND maintain performance with those engines as the stand?

[Knoxville]

VW as a group encompasses. Seat, Audi, Bently and Skoda. Aswell as others.
That will be the next thing, as they all use largly (mabee not Bently?? ) the same engines. All the other Brands under the VW group will be under scrutiny.

I think the only Bentley still fitted with a Bentley engine is the Mulsanne, which has the big old school V8 of yesteryear and probably runs on coal.... I don't think the EPA have an emissions test that covers steam engines so that one's probably in the clear

The Continental GT and the Flying Spur both had VW W12's and then later the smaller and lighter VW V8, both of which have been fitted to the VW Phaeton. The V8 has found its way into some Audis too if my memory serves me correctly. So there may be a bone to be picked there but in this case it seems to be the VAG diesel engines that are under scrutiny.

[kalniel]

Certainly agree with the mis-selling - I can almost here the class action lawyers in the US dusting off their suits ready for a feeding frenzy. I wonder if VW can reduce emissions AND maintain performance with those engines as the stand?

They *claim* the latest versions do, so a question of how much it takes to bring it to the slightly older version of the EA189 which is the one affected. It's designed to be a modular engine with various parts upgradable over the market lifespan to improve things.

[peterb]

And IIRC, the engine management systems are made by Bosch.

[directhex]

I didn't realise we were talking about as much as a 40-fold difference between supposed & real emissions

[GuidoLS]

I didn't realise we were talking about as much as a 40-fold difference between supposed & real emissions

I saw the quotes on a couple of car tech sites, but since there's been so much posted in the last 3-4 days, I've had a hard time tracking it back down again - one of the perils of clearing cookies and history every time the browser shuts down. Will post links when I track it down again.