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Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
This is a bit of a copy / paste of what I've written on a couple of other forums, but as we're a tech site here, I thought I might as well post here too :)
Following a good friend's petrolhead footsteps (I'll call him Richard), albeing skipping the intermediate Leafs and Zoes and horrible Outlanders, I've jumped ship. Gone from a high performance tuned diesel to a hyper performance Tesla.
My journey so far has been a real eye opener. I had been following Teslas but only very briefly, remembering the Roadster and hearing some controversy how Top Gear rigged and scripted the whole thing giving it a much worse review than it deserved.
However, Richard's venture into Tesladom re-energised my desire to research the whole electric car thing.
I started researching the Model S and the more I read and learnt about it, the more I realised this car actually ticked far more boxes than I hoped and became a worryingly (!!) attractive option. I started looking them up, realised they were quite expensive but gave so much back in return with massively reduced running costs and the unbelievable flexibility of a insanely quick 0-60 car and also being able to carry 5 adults in utmost comfort.
The Skoda Fabia, whilst fun, and having spent a great deal on it turning it into a project car, felt like it was time time for me to change to something different. I have become increasingly aware of the environment and starting thinking how I could go about financing a very logical folly.
Then I was thinking maybe I should get it as a company car. Since I started my own business, I've not "treated" myself to anything, and when you start looking at the financial advantages of getting an electric car, it becomes all the more compelling.
So around the turn of 2015, I booked myself a test drive in a Model S at West Drayton. It was the first time I had been in an electric car and had an idea of what to expect. However...
I was greeting with great friendliness and professionalism, but interestingly, for the first time walking into a car sales shop, felt bizzarely relaxed. There was no pressure by the sales guys. They started the drive. As we pulled out, although I knew there wouldn't be any engine noise, it's still unnerving the first time. You know to expect it, but it still feels strange!
We pull over into a quiet industrial estate. The car was a P90D and he says "I'll show you the acceleration you get with the P90D model. This doesn't have the 'Ludicrous' option, but gives you an idea". He then floors it. I'm pushed back into my seat. Jaw slowly but surely fally into my lap. This is amazing! :eek:
We then swap seats. I sit in the driver's seat. The demonstrator shows me how to create a profile. I adjust the seat, steering wheel, mirrors, etc, and save it. I then stick it into Drive and pull away. I go round the first few roundabouts and the plantedness of the car is striking. The low down battery pack floor gives a very low centre of gravity and there's zero body roll. The next thing that strikes me is just the instantanousness of the pedal response. No lag. None at all. Of course, it's a bit of a change coming from a big turbo conversion where there is inevitably some delay, particularly if you're not in the sweet spot of the rev range. Here, there is no sweet spot. Or rather, any speed is a sweet spot. It's just amazing.
We get onto a slip road onto the M4. I floor it and an unmeasurable grin appears on my face. I start to realise that this is, in my opinion, the car of the future. The demonstrator then shows me the Autopilot features. At first, I'm very reluctant to let it drive itself. But it does so with consummate ease, keeping a safe distance from the car in front, tracking the lane marking and negotiating curves with no drama at all.
We then make it back to West Drayton, and I start taking a few photos and play around with the car's settings on the huge 17" touchscreen. I start to wonder what options I would choose should I go ahead, I have a USB stick with some high quality FLAC files and compare the standard sound system to the "Ultra High Fidelity" sound system. Damn, it sounds quite a bit better. But £1800 better?
I get back into my Fabia. All of a sudden, everything feels to 19" century. It's noisy, there's a hint of diesel smell, it rattles. Why am I feeling like this? I love this car! But it suddenly feels ancient and so passé!
I drive home and continue to think about what model and options I would tick. A few days and weeks pass, but I can't help but think about driving around in a Tesla. I consider myself a pretty well balanced person, and that partly annoys me how I've just been "converted" to the whole Tesla and electric car movement. It's not like me. Xav, what are you thinking? Have you gone mad?!?
A few weeks pass and that feeling doesn't go away. At that point, I decide "Yes, it's going to be my next car". The next big question: to get the 90D which is the high capacity 90kWh battery but not the "performance" version. Remember, Tesla do not make slow cars. The slowest version is still a rather nippy 5s 0-60 in its 4WD setup! The penalty switching to the "P" version is quite severe. Another £20k+ And then there's the "Ludicrous" option. Another £8k or so. Having also ticked various other options, well, pretty much every other option, I'm now north of £100k. Crikey!
"OK" I say to myself. I really need to see whether it's worth spending this extra money on the Performance and potentially Ludicrous options. I remember Richard commenting very sensibly that it's a hell of a lot of money (you can buy probably two cars for the price of the upgrade!). Also, you lose a tiny bit in range as the P version is more thirsty on the electron department...
Hmm. OK, I need to see what all the talk is regarding this Ludicrous thing. By now a month has passed, and I phone West Drayton up and enquire about having a second test drive with a car equipped with the Ludicrous option. They say they don't have one available but will get back to me. A day passes, I get a call from WD. They've arranged to have a Ludicrous car brought over from Gatwick (I think) and have it available for a test drive. I take them up on the offer. :rolleyes:
The ludicrous test drive arrives and this time, it's Maggie, another demonstrator who takes me out with a few friends I had brought along for the experience. She pulls up by a slip road. Switches to "Ludicrous" and then plants it. OMFG! It's visceral. Your internal organs are seriously displaced. It's like a roller coaster ride. Do this a few times, I can see people throwing up, it's that brutal! She then throws it round a roundabout doing a U-turn and floors it back up the dual carriageway. This is off the chart in terms of real performance. It might not beat the supercars above 60mph, but before that and with the limits of traffic and speed limits on our roads, it's mightily impressive.
I eventually get back home after driving yet again, in an agricultural diesel engined car. Yup, I've decided, the Tesla is for me. Now to decide whether I want to spend that much more on the silly Ludicrous version. I realise that the usefulness is questionable. Yes, it's a nice party trick to show off to your mates, but how often would I really use it?
A week later, I place my order. And yes, I tick the Ludicrous option :iloveyou: I now have a two-week "cooling off" period where I can change the spec, etc, or cancel and get a full refund of the £2,000 deposit. In that time, Richard sends me a PM on Facebook saying he's selling his Tesla. eek a second time. A great price too smile Respect to the man who probably has more cars and sells more cars than a few car dealers out there smile
In the end, I stick with my decision to buy a new built-to-order Tesla. Ont he 15th April, the order is locked in and I can no longer pull out (well, I can, but will lose the £2k deposit). Now the excrutiating wait commences. I'm commited, yet have to wait. Through the Speakev forum, I get in touch with a chap who has the ability to track the order. I get the container number and ship the car will sail on. Every day, sometime several times a day I check up on the position of the container ship crossing the Atlantic.
Finally, the car arrives and a pick up is scheduled on 30th June. It's a manic time. They have 40 cars sheduled for pick up - extra pressure to meet end of quarter targets. I turn up, excited like a 5-year-old. I do a quick once-over on the car, and am happy to expedite the whole induction process as I felt pretty familiar with the car's toys. The staff were quite grateful as they had just so many customers to get through that Thursday.
A week has now passed and I'm still in love with what the car has to offer. It's turned out to be quite a Jekyll and Hyde kind of car, able to cruise very comfortably and quietly along the motorways at 60-70mph. But get on the twisties, and put your foot down and instant gratification and smile-enducing driving. It manages to be so versatile, it's quite terrifying how a potent package a well-designed electric car can provide. In my opinion, it really is the future. When you look at what else is on offer, the environment issues, the fact you're burning fuel, creating emissions when at a standstill on the M25 when an electric car doesn't, and with autopilot, takes all the stress out of being stuck in a jam. I actually don't mind now being stuck in standstill traffic. I just let the car do the stuff whilst I relax and listen to music. No more tired left leg with a heavy duty clutch, noise when not moving, etc.
I cannot see myself every wanting to drive an ICE car unless it's a track toy. There's a kind of lack of drama with no engine noise, but 99% of the time, I don't miss it. I appreciate the quiteness and comfort far more for the majority of the time than having a really involved and connected feeling to the car and road. Maybe I'm showing my age LOL. The only downside I can think of is the sheer size of the car. It's WIDE, and in tight country lanes, can bring a scare or two when something wide comes the other way!
Here are a few from the unveiling when I picked it up :iloveyou:
Complete with personnalised "welcome to the family" message
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I'm unfortunate in that I can't charge where I live at the moment - the car is parked 50m from my front door and there aren't any charging points in the car park frown However, I was charging at work (until last week) and using public and the simply awesome Tesla Supercharging network to top my battery up.
I did 1,200 miles in just over a week of ownership, and not paid a penny. I did buy the CHAdeMO adapter and also a Type 2 cable so I'm pretty well covered. The car comes with its own UMC - Universal Mobile Connector. This comes with adapters on the supply side, allowing you to charge at 10 amps off a UK plug, up to 32 amps on a single phase blue commando socket or 16 amps three phase with the red commando plug (although I'd have to buy that adapter).
A point to note and understand is that the actual "charger" is in the car. The new default charger gives up to 11kW of power, allowing me to charge at up to 16a 3 phase. The onboard charger is what does the 230 (or 400V) AC conversion into DC that then goes to the car's batteries. If you use CHAdeMO or the Tesla Supercharging network, then it's DC directly, bypassing the car's chargers - the chargers are in the CHAdeMO / Supercharger cabinets. CHAdeMO gives up to just over 32kW power, Supercharging gives a whopping 120kW power. When you're nearing an empty battery, this allows you to charge up to 50% capacity in about 20 minutes / 80% capacity in 40 minutes. It's important to note that the charge rate decreases as the batteries fill up - as they're nearing full capacity, the current reduces a lot so the super fast charging solutions aren't any faster than charging at 16 amps off a commando. For that reason, when using the Supercharging network, Tesla recommend you only charge what you need to get to the next Supercharing station. You'll spend a lot less time charging from 10-50% than from 50-90%. These short charge sessions means long distance road trips become an absolute doddle and "range anxiety" that we hear about so much isn't an issue (providing of course your route goes near these charging stations). Planning these short stops on long trips doesn't really slow you down either - you'd normally stop every couple of hours for a leg stretch / drinks / break. So you use that time to refill / re-energise the car as the same time as you re-energise yourself smile
If I could charge at home, I'd obviously do that. When you do charge at home, you're effecitvely leaving every morning with a full tank. And you never have to stop at a fuel station again, mess around with mucky oily fuel pumps, etc. Oh and you're never in that situation when you need to do an emergency trip only to realise you need to stop en route to fill up with fuel. With the 230-250 mile range in my 90kWh Model S, it's more than enough for two return commuting trips to London. Every other day, I top off at work or Supercharger so it's an inconvenience, but something I'm living with for the moment. It's accelerated my desire to move house and get somewhere where I can charge at home.
In terms of cost, if you charge at home, you'd go onto an Economy 7 plan so you pay cheaper leccy at night and charge at night. If you assume you'd need to "fully charge" your car, let's assume that's 80kWh of energy. At around 6.5p/kWh, it's just over a fiver to fill your car. A massive saving. And that's if you exclusively charge at home and pay for it... I was paying 10 times that to fill my Fabia that did around 500miles, so in reality, it's about 5 times more cost effective than my diesel Fabia!
As of today (1st May 2017), I've done nearly 20,000 miles and it's probably cost me around £50 in various public chargers and Ecotricity since they moved to charging. The rest of the time has been from places where I've worked where they generously allowed me to plug in and Tesla Superchargers / Destination Chargers.
More to follow...
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
And regarding Ludicrous amongst other things, a chap in Canada has written a web front-end which interrogates the car's API through Tesla's servers and obtains telemetric information, geolocalisation, etc. www.teslalog.com
Here's a log of acceleration. It's not that precise (only logs every 0.5 seconds), but gives an idea.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-.../i-JfZw92F.png
What's worth noting is the power which increases to 500kW, around 665hp is instant. The actual launch is around the -250ms mark - the point at which the speed starts increasing. The power you see before is pre-loading the motors using launch control.
In the next 1.5 seconds, power ramps up to the 665 odd HP and then is constant till I lift off around 4 seconds later by which time I'm at around 80mph
In that initial 1.5 seconds when power is ramping up - I'm presuming to maintain traction, speed goes from 0 to around 40mph. Another 1.5 seconds later, we're over 60mph.
Not only is it vicious, there's no pre-warning of it. It's not as if you're riding a wave of torque that gradually increases. It's not there then in a fraction of a second (with no real noise apart from the groan of the brakes strugglng to keep the car immobile!), you're litterally catapulted forwards with a level of G-force that is relentless until 70mph+
For a long time, I did debate whether it's worth spending a lot more money to get the performance version and then ludicrous on top. I don't regret it. I'm using it quite a lot. Not in full launch control, but the ability with little to no warning to just shoot off the lights and already be 100m up the road before anyone behind you has moved off the line is rather giggle-inducing. :mrgreen:
Joining the "0 miles club" has become a rite of passage. Not something I'm in a hurry to repeat wink
A few more photos
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Interior shots
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The following covers my first long road trip through France last summer
After a month's ownership, I'm still in love smile By the end of the weekend, I will have gone over the 3,000 mile mark.
I'm starting to get used to the sheer size and width of it. Everything has now become second nature: the autopresent door handles / completely keyless operation, the "charge when the opportunity presents itself", etc, it's just so easy to live with.
I haven't had any real range anxiety at all. With the 250+ range, it's not an issue for my daily commute. As I drive 80 miles return every day to work, I essentially get two days' worth of charge with a lot of spare energy to have fun with when I'm in the mood, or when I'm provoked wink I could do three days' worth, but as I don't have the luxury of charging at home and the charging at work has recently become an "issue" due to an inconsiderate colleague (might be related to Clarkson actually!), I tend to only charge to 70-80% as that's what's most time-efficient. For those who don't know, the charging rate is ramp-based and slows down as the battery fills up. If you're at a Supercharger (which is the highest rate of charge possibly today), you'll go from 0-50% in about 20 minutes. 50-80% takes another 20 minutes and the 80-100% would probably take another 20-30 minutes on top of that. So as I'm having to wait, it's just not worth it. Arguably, it's also not best for the battery to fully charge it and not use that first few percent of capacity. Storing the car 100% fully charged isn't recommended, so I just stick to 70-80% which gives me the 2+ daily return commutes I'm doing.
On Tuesday, I'm off to South West France, near Spain. I've already planned my route through the Channel Tunnel. It's roughly 11 hours of driving and 3 hours or charging. Really looking forward to that. evtripplanner.com is great for working out energy consumption / times. I'll see how accurate it really is!
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So a month in, I can update with the following summary:
Pros:
- It's the most comfortable, calm, serene car you could possibly ever be in. Wafting along the motorways on a quiet surface with virtually no noise (just a bit of road / wind noise as you approach NSL)
- It's incredibly luxurious yet minimalist. I accept, the styling is down to personal preference, but a month in, I still love it and am not bored at all with the simplicity of it.
- It'll leave ANYTHING for dead at the lights, coming out of roundabout, coming up a slip road. It's deceptively quick, it's addictively quick, and the greeny in me loves this is at zero noise and zero car emissions cost whatsoever.
- The infotainment keeps me busy at quiet times / traffic jams. Quick browse on the web, randomly pick pretty much any piece of music on Spotify.
- Autopilot is just awesome. Using it as it was intended wink it massively reduces tiring on long trips and stop/start traffic jams. Combining AP with stops every 2-3 hours to charge means I'm not worried at all about my long solo drive
- The logging information available through a few APIs (I'm using Teslalog.com) is a geek's paradise. Note to self: do NOT use this car for a heist!
- I've done just about 3k miles and it's not cost me a penny through the use of Superchargers, destination chargers (work / gym / shopping centres / IKEA) and a few Ecotricity pumps, although the latter will end as they complete their conversions. this has now changed of course
Cons:
- It's still frikkin wide and ain't getting any narrower! Tight roads can make for uncomfortable driving. Something big coming the other way not quite tight against their kurb somehow clenches my buttocks as we cross! I now systematically look for a "safe" parking slot when out and about, with still no absolute guarantees someone too interested won't cause a car ding.
- The CHAdeMO charging adapter had issues with Nissan-branded Ecotricity charging stations. The issues have now been resolved with a new version D CHAdeMO adaptor.
- A piece of trim by the steering wheel doesn't stay flush against the dash. Minor cosmetic thing hardly noticable, but I'll mention it when it goes in for its first service as I'm not expecting trim to fall off £100k+ car. This has now been fixed.
- Not being able to charge at home / work is a minor nuisance when I have to take time out somewhere to do it.
A month in, I can't see ever wanting to change to another car, particularly an ICE. There's just no going back for me, and apart from the desire for something a bit smaller for short trips (Model 3 is reserved!), it's done everything I've wanted. I even helped a friend move house and getting a new bedroom suite at Ikea, loading it into the car with no problems at all. And she loved the chauffered service! In fact, it's such a pleasure to drive that any excuse is good enough for a quick trip somewhere. Whether down at the shops (providing parking is pre-planned!), going to see friends, even the geeky-sad desire to explore where chargers are located in my area.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
An interesting read - but I think it's telling how much I echo your feelings with my Volt - a car which was considered super expensive when it shipped at £35k.
Moving away from the lights before anyone else (even on my 8.9 0-60) is the best. Generally being able to deal with any busy road - crossing busy lanes, or getting onto a busy roundabout. The serenity of the noise (or lack thereof). How a "good" diesel feels (and smells) like a tractor with a body kit once you've experienced it all.
When I went for a Model S test drive, the most telling thing about the experience is how incremental it felt, over the Volt. Better in every way, but measurably so - whereas comparing the Volt to a Passat feels like comparing a car to a wooden horse with wobbly wheels.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
ok how long does the battery last and how much is a new one ? 100k for a car is still very pricey 3-5 times what a petrol or diesel would cost for similar performance
yeah your saving on fuel as long as your in an area that supports it ..
car does look good tho .. but on northern roads would be a bit tight ..lol
thx for the story and hope you enjoy it for yrs to come ..
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
An interesting read - but I think it's telling how much I echo your feelings with my Volt - a car which was considered super expensive when it shipped at £35k.
Moving away from the lights before anyone else (even on my 8.9 0-60) is the best. Generally being able to deal with any busy road - crossing busy lanes, or getting onto a busy roundabout. The serenity of the noise (or lack thereof). How a "good" diesel feels (and smells) like a tractor with a body kit once you've experienced it all.
When I went for a Model S test drive, the most telling thing about the experience is how incremental it felt, over the Volt. Better in every way, but measurably so - whereas comparing the Volt to a Passat feels like comparing a car to a wooden horse with wobbly wheels.
Oh yes, I completely agree. The impact it had when I returned to my old and trusty Skoda wouldn't have been that much lower with another EV (Volt, Leaf, Zoë, etc). I'd be very happy with one of those too, but as I only have one car, I really need something with the range and flexibility it provides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flearider
ok how long does the battery last and how much is a new one ? 100k for a car is still very pricey 3-5 times what a petrol or diesel would cost for similar performance
yeah your saving on fuel as long as your in an area that supports it ..
car does look good tho .. but on northern roads would be a bit tight ..lol
thx for the story and hope you enjoy it for yrs to come ..
Tesla warranty the battery and electric drive train (motors, etc) for 8 years, unlimited mileage. :) Enough for me to demonstrate they believe in the technology. In 8 years time, with the rate of evolution, there will probably be something much better by then.
Out of interest, what do you mean in terms of similar performance? I really can't see any other car come anywhere near the performance of the Tesla and its versatility at beating ANYTHING off the lights yet still able to carry 5 people in comfort.
Just on fuel costs, an equivalent or close-performing sports car will return, say, 20 MPG. So having now done over 20,000 in 11 months, that would have been over 1,000 gallons or 4,500 litres. At £1.25/litre, that's nearing £6k on fuel savings per year.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flearider
3-5 times what a petrol or diesel would cost for similar performance
0-60 on a P90DL is 2.6 seconds.
If we say "same or similar", we'll include cars up to 3.0 seconds? That's cars up to 15% slower.
There aren't many of them. And they aren't really cheaper than the P90DL. $131k for a Mercedes-AMG S, for example. $144k for a Porsche 911 GT3 RS. If we're saying a $140k P100DL is 3-5x the price of equivalent performance, that gives us $28-$47k for a petrol or diesel. What can you find for that which is comparable? Hell, on that money, can you get under 4 seconds? I guess you can manage it if you stretch "same or similar" to something half as quick, like a Focus RS.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Nice plate. ;)
Aside from cost, the only thing that gets me about these is the size. I get the reasons why (global platform and all that), but I want a 4wd pocket rocket for B roads which are incredibly narrow around me - I wouldn't want to go any larger than the A3 to be honest! I did once see a model S and the driver looked terrified creeping down the lanes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
0-60 on a P90DL is 2.6 seconds.
If we say "same or similar", we'll include cars up to 3.0 seconds? That's cars up to 15% slower.
There aren't many of them. And they aren't really cheaper than the P90DL. $131k for a Mercedes-AMG S, for example. $144k for a Porsche 911 GT3 RS. If we're saying a $140k P100DL is 3-5x the price of equivalent performance, that gives us $28-$47k for a petrol or diesel. What can you find for that which is comparable? Hell, on that money, can you get under 4 seconds? I guess you can manage it if you stretch "same or similar" to something half as quick, like a Focus RS.
Caterham 420? 3.8s, £28K list price.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Caterham 420? 3.8s, £28K list price.
Ah. I looked at Caterham, but didn't think to move down the scale from the 620R, which was over-budget but *does* hit the sub-3.0s performance target
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
Aside from cost, the only thing that gets me about these is the size.
Size is my #1 turn-off on the Model S. It's really monstrous on UK roads. Not just the length (too long for most garages & parking spaces), but the obscene width. I have enough trouble getting comfortable with the dimensions of my (relatively) smaller car.
Even at the same price, I'd pick a tarted up Model 3 over the Model S, to get a smaller car.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
Moving away from the lights before anyone else (even on my 8.9 0-60) is the best.
I'll stick with my £900 motorcycle from 1978, I think... 0-60 in 2.8secs. Beating everyone off the lights with a vehicle older than most of the people around you is the best!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
The serenity of the noise (or lack thereof).
I do worry how long it will be, once they force me to give up my diesel and adopt these overclocked golf carts, before I run over and kill someone who couldn't hear my vehicle approaching... Everyone I know with a 'leccy car has come close and two of the guys at work have already hit such people. I had enough trouble riding a V-twin Cruiser with near-deafening straight-throughs!
If they can do something about that stupid noise law, we might at least get some noisemakers fitted.
Would also let me have one that made the same noise as an MTT 420-RR, especially on startup.... heh heh heh!!!!! :D
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
I guess one of the reasons for the size is to accommodate the larger battery - the model S has slightly less range - although still realistic, and would be my choice although the projected cost of £35,000 is still too much for me.
There are other concerns about the long term future of electric vehicles, and that is the infrastructure required to support them. Not specifically the charge points, but the installed generating capacity to provide power to this points. The introduction of large server farms in California caused a surge in power consumption, now consider thousands of cars all taking a relatively modest 7kw to charge at night, and the night time demand then goes up. And solar power is of little use at night!
And while the EV may be efficient at converting electricity into motion (and then to heat!) the thermal efficiency of a fossil fuel power station is still only around 33%. (as is any form of Carnot cycle internal combustion engine).
So the widespread adoption of EVs is going to require investment in more power generation facilities, which may be paid for by higher electricity prices, or more likely, taxation on EVs - particularly as VED from conventionally powered vehicles will reduce. Or perhaps electricity use at night will attract a premium, a sort of reverse economy seven. (Or maybe the EU will step in and ban the sale of any EV with a power of greater than 10kw - a la vacuum cleaner fiasco!)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
But at least we can generate something of the energy needed. With ICEs the generation was stopped some time ago :p (excluding bio fuels, which have their own issues)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttaskmaster
I do worry how long it will be, once they force me to give up my diesel and adopt these overclocked golf carts, before I run over and kill someone who couldn't hear my vehicle approaching... Everyone I know with a 'leccy car has come close and two of the guys at work have already hit such people. I had enough trouble riding a V-twin Cruiser with near-deafening straight-throughs!
If they can do something about that stupid noise law, we might at least get some noisemakers fitted.
Would also let me have one that made the same noise as an MTT 420-RR, especially on startup.... heh heh heh!!!!! :D
There's a middle ground to be explored. It's astonishing just how much nicer cities are without the constant background noise of engines - but pedestrian safety is indeed an issue. If manufacturers would stop making pedestrian noisemakers a £700 optional extra, that'd help.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
Hell, on that money, can you get under 4 seconds? I guess you can manage it if you stretch "same or similar" to something half as quick, like a Focus RS.
Alfa Giulia V6 is supposed to be 3.6s for £60K, and you can get a remap to 600bhp though I have no idea what that does to the performance figures.
But at that point I don't see the performance really mattering compared to the rest of the feel of the car. The Alfa has reviewers calling it the best handling car available and it makes a lovely noise, but it won't feel like an electric car if that is what you are after. If you can afford 60K you can afford the petrol, but it isn't about that is it. Lane departure warning isn't autopilot, you won't get the software updates to play with, it is just a different experience overall.
But at the first corner, a Tesla driver has to drag an extra half a tonne of weight around. I would love a Tesla, but I can see it wouldn't be for everyone. It wasn't for me, £50K for a second hand car was too much. I went 13K for a second hand petrol car, having decided that £35K for a basic Giulia was also too much. But maybe next time I will be tempted by a model 3.
Edit: ... and yeah, if you really want fast then get a motorbike.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
There's a middle ground to be explored. It's astonishing just how much nicer cities are without the constant background noise of engines - but pedestrian safety is indeed an issue. If manufacturers would stop making pedestrian noisemakers a £700 optional extra, that'd help.
Yesterday I watched a young woman walk straight across a side road without any hint of looking around before she stepped off the pavement causing a police car who was driving perfectly well and indicating to turn to perform an emergency stop. She kept walking completely unaware of what she had done. I wonder how much is down to electric cars being quiet, and how much is people just being thick.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Nice write-up, thanks for sharing.
I'm very envious of your purchase, I could never afford something so expensive, let alone justify it to myself.
I have a lowly Zoe, end of the last lot at a cracking £10,000. Range is under 100 miles. My commute though is only 30 miles, cross-country.
I can echo a lot of what you say about electric motoring. It's quiet and peaceful, it's very cheap, and the power delivery (all 85hp of it) is excellent. I have a charger in my garage, so we plug it in when it's getting low and it's charged in the morning. We try and charge it during the day to make the most of the solar panels.
I would say that an electric car makes a perfect first car, providing you have somewhere to charge it. If you're a motorway warrior then it isn't suitable, but most people aren't. If you go long distance a lot, then a second car that can do it makes sense, but every-day, electric wins out.
I haven't put a deposit down, but I'm hoping to make the change to a Tesla 3 when they're available - but that'll mean selling my RS.
It might just be the Zoe being a fairly rotten drive - but when I get back into my TT and hear the fuel pop from the exhausts as the 5-pot turns over, I can't help but smile. That off-beat thrum as the turbo roars at full chat is intoxicating. Silently pulling away just doesn't have the same sense of occasion.
I was very dubious about getting an electric car, but I don't think I'll be without one now. They are the future, and like combustion cars, they come in at different price-points, performance and luxury. They all have a forwards and backwards gear. No changing gears, or waiting for your laggy DSG to wake up or pick the wrong gear. Want to go faster? Push the pedal harder.
I've been trying to race people off the lights, but they don't seem to respond to my revving... ;)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
One thing I would say - if you have a low-range leccy car like mine, you can get into hot-bother if you stray too far from the motorways currently. Charging points on motorways and major cities is plentiful, but rural towns out in the country, no charging.
That said, you can charge off a 13a socket if you have the time and the cable. And Renault at least provide 4 years break down recovery free of charge, which covers running out of juice.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Cars are pretty quiet these days, tyre noise is most significant above 10-20mph. And with the hard rubber on most EVs for economy, that shouldn't be any quieter than a ICE - the only difference in noise would be at supermarket car park speeds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peterb
...And while the EV may be efficient at converting electricity into motion (and then to heat!) the thermal efficiency of a fossil fuel power station is still only around 33%. (as is any form of Carnot cycle internal combustion engine)....
Power stations are far more efficient than cars, for a number of reasons. The lack of weight restrictions means you can do things like boil water with the hot exhaust gases to run a steam turbine, giving efficiencies well above 50% - my nearest power station claims an efficiency of greater than 59.5%! The lack of pumping losses across the throttle valve and economies of scale help in this as well. The upshot of this is that even with the 7% transmission losses in the national grid it's more efficient to burn fuel in a power station to charge an EV than in a car
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
FWIW, we've had a number of days this year with no coal being burnt for UK power. You can also get carbon neutral electric tariffs that buy your leccy from renewable sources only.
Using power-generation as an argument against the environmental credentials of leccy vs combustion cars is just showing ignorance.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
I don't think it was being used that way, but rather the point is switching from oil to electricity will increase the demand on electricity generation full stop. There isn't enough renewable energy to go around as it is, let alone if demand increases. That's not a reason to stop pushing for EV IMHO, but it is a worthy point of consideration.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
There isn't enough renewable energy to go around as it is, let alone if demand increases. That's not a reason to stop pushing for EV IMHO, but it is a worthy point of consideration.
I keep hearing arguments to the contrary, that we're generating far more than we can use or store at most given moments... Not that I'm on board with a lot of the hippy tree-hugging renewable wibble that half such people spout. I'm waiting for more nuclear solutions.
But that's what I'm hearing, usually as lectures complete with pictures of these massive Tesla battery charging stations and the like...
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Here is al ink to current and historic UK electricity generating sources.
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
the reason the wind has surpassed coal is that just about all the coal powered stations have been shut down, or have been converted to biomass (largely imported).
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dashers
Using power-generation as an argument against the environmental credentials of leccy vs combustion cars is just showing ignorance.
I don't think you read my post fully if that is the inference you drew.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kalniel
I don't think it was being used that way, but rather the point is switching from oil to electricity will increase the demand on electricity generation full stop. There isn't enough renewable energy to go around as it is, let alone if demand increases. That's not a reason to stop pushing for EV IMHO, but it is a worthy point of consideration.
Indeed I wasn't - I was merely pointing out the the mass adoption of EVs will require considerable investment in infrastructure, which will have to be paid for in some way.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Its coming up to 18 months that we've had the leaf and I'm still very happy with it , however it is generally used for shorter trips within a 50 mile radius of home. I'd need something with the range of a model S to consider going EV only, but I really dont think thats too far in the future.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttaskmaster
I keep hearing arguments to the contrary, that we're generating far more than we can use or store at most given moments... Not that I'm on board with a lot of the hippy tree-hugging renewable wibble that half such people spout. I'm waiting for more nuclear solutions.
But that's what I'm hearing, usually as lectures complete with pictures of these massive Tesla battery charging stations and the like...
I don't think the UK has ever been very near generating more renewable electricity than we could use. I don't think it's been below 20% fossil fuel generation (with nuclear, renewables and imports making up the rest).
Sometimes due to the financial contracts arranged with other power stations or lack of capacity in some parts of the grid, some renewables are 'curtailed' i.e. turned off deliberately. This is obviously not a sane thing to do except in exceptional circumstances, so I'd guess there is pressure to keep this to a minimum!
Renewable power is probably highest I've seen it today:
https://www.solar.sheffield.ac.uk/pvlive/
... click "Real Time UK Generation Mix" - shows solar too - unlike some of the other similar sites.
If you were to charge last night in the early morning (which you can set most electric cars to do), you would have got electricity at about 125g CO2/kWh - http://www.earth.org.uk/_gridCarbonIntensityGB.html
Electric cars do between about 4 to 7 km per kWh, so carbon emissions would have been 31 to 17 grammes CO2 per km.
The best diesels and petrol cars do around 100 g CO2/km.
A Mercedes which is roughly at equiv performance to the Model S will chuck out at least 250 grammes CO2 per km (if you get the book mpg - otherwise more like 350 g for those with a heavy right foot).
The grid isn't usually as low carbon as today (windy, during summer, with pretty high solar during the day too), but electric cars in the UK are still lower CO2 than petrol or diesels all the time. On other electricity grids it may be different, but not many -
https://www.electricitymap.org/
http://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmut...aner-than-ever
Let's chose the worst I can find now - Estonia at 1074 g / kWh (next worse in Europe at the moment is Poland at 640 g), that'd put EVs at between 153 and 268 g / km - so there at the moment a Fiesta 1.4 will beat a Leaf, but the Tesla is still probably better than the Merc.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
I hadn't anticipated this turning into an energy thread :-)
My personal opinion is having energy storage (battery or other) combined with solar and wind to have a more consistent 24/7 availability.
I wonder what could be achieved if the cost of Hinkley point was spent on renewables and storage. You'd probably get as far and not have to wait several years to start getting the power and RoI.
Regarding the Tesla, I'd be happy to show anyone around the Reading area if you were interested. A ludicrous launch is worth the experience in exchange of a pint at the pub.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
Regarding the Tesla, I'd be happy to show anyone around the Reading area if you were interested. A ludicrous launch is worth the experience in exchange of a pint at the pub.
I remember watching a Youtube review of the Tesla which included trying out Ludicrous launch mode, & I seem to remember the car giving a warning that its use can reduce the lifespan of the drive-train. I'm guessing that's not covered by the warranty?
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
I hadn't anticipated this turning into an energy thread :-)
My personal opinion is having energy storage (battery or other) combined with solar and wind to have a more consistent 24/7 availability.
I wonder what could be achieved if the cost of Hinkley point was spent on renewables and storage. You'd probably get as far and not have to wait several years to start getting the power and RoI.
The contracted electricity price guaranteed to Hinkley Point C (for 30 years I think?) roughly matches the price recently Tesla started getting (guaranteed 20 years I think) for a grid-scale PV+battery in Hawaii. This replaced more expensive diesel generation I think, so made purely economic sense.
Sadly the batteries would have to bridge much larger gaps in the UK (a few overcast, still winter days gets you in trouble). Of course the Hawaii system is already live, and I don't suppose Hinkley Point C will meet its target to start generating in about 10 years time.
https://youtu.be/hzywt2bDP54?t=13m21s
... still battery costs are halving every 4 to 8 years, so maybe by the time HPC comes online, two weeks' battery storage will compete with it on price.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
I hadn't anticipated this turning into an energy thread :-)
Always happens when talking about EV's, haters attack the concept.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dashers
Always happens when talking about EV's, haters attack the concept.
I bet the same thing happened when electric trains started to replace steam, and cars pushed out stage coaches... Except with more horse cr@p arguments this time around.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
Regarding the Tesla, I'd be happy to show anyone around the Reading area if you were interested. A ludicrous launch is worth the experience in exchange of a pint at the pub.
Where in Reading would there be a suitable road for such an activity, though?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dashers
Always happens when talking about EV's, haters attack the concept.
It's not the concept I hate and attack... just the lack of implementation, the mere suggestion that I'd be forced by the government to swap to something I neither like nor can afford, and particularly the self-righteous drivel spouted by many owners who cannot understand how it's basically not even as good as my own, so not suitable as a replacement... more so when there are better alternatives that should have been on the market long before now.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
I have been an utter, outspoken critic of electric cars, but I love the Tesla. Absolutely fantastic car. If you haven't experienced ludicrous mode, go do it. Now.
Obviously the same but applies to the Model S, as to other electric cars. They just aren't good value. In the past, the I've illustrated this by pointing out that the electric car under discussion costs as much as a much awesomer ICE car with twenty years of petrol. The Tesla makes that argument irrelevant. Yes, for the price of the Tesla you could buy an F-Type R and have change left over for a top end 5 series to punt the family around in, and we could wear out our keyboards talking about raw driving experience vs raw performance, but it's all a waste of time. A discussion of value is worthless when it comes to a vehicle like the Tesla. It's a unique driving experience that defies comparison to any other vehicle on the road. I'd borrow one any chance I got!
I'm interested to see how the Model 3 stacks up.
(Until recently I owned stock in Tesla.)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
I worked out the cost of our Zoe was about the same monthly as a VW Up. We pay a bit more due to battery rental but next to nothing on fuel.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Sounds excellent.
Is that Richard, your mate, as in 'he's not a real hamster'?
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xlucine
The lack of pumping losses across the throttle valve and economies of scale help in this as well.
The MultiAir engine in my Alfa doesn't use a throttle valve, which makes it impressive for a petrol engine but only gets up to the sort of efficiency I got out of my previous diesel (after some finger in the air allowance for the lower energy density of petrol). It is some impressive witchcraft, but I think power stations just have such an edge with not having the constrictions of being under a car bonnet I can't see how cars can ever get in the same efficiency league.
An electric car on every driveway would seem like an opportunity for grid energy storage rather than a problem. Say I plug in my car which is flat, if the nearby 20 neighbours cars which are fully charged all contribute a 5% charge then my car gets charged up really fast with no impact on the greater grid, then we all need to be trickle charged up that last 5%.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
I hadn't anticipated this turning into an energy thread :-)
My personal opinion is having energy storage (battery or other) combined with solar and wind to have a more consistent 24/7 availability.
That is a way forward and one I have looked at - although the cost of LiIon batteries means that (for me) the RoI was about 12 years - which as about the life of the batteries. However that will change as the cost falls. It raises the possibility of micrograms - a housing estate (for example) could pool resources to be self sufficient in energy production and go completely off grid. That in urn has implications for the grid though as the operating cost is shared among fewer users.
From a grid perspective, mass storage systems may be away ahead - pumped storage systems like the Dinorwic plant in Wales is one example - flow batteries is another.
I noticed that yesterday the UK generated just over half its total power from renewables - it was only relatively briefly at around mid-day, with favourable conditions - windy and sunny. I'm delighted to have contributed about 1.5 kw peak at around midday! :)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttaskmaster
Where in Reading would there be a suitable road for such an activity, though?
A33 south of reading is fine. Right by the supercharger. 0-60 in 2.7 seconds
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peterb
I'm delighted to have contributed about 1.5 kw peak at around midday! :)
Pfft, you need to up your game. 2.2kw baby. To be fair, so far this month has been a bit poor. Managed a 3.26 on 26th May.
I agree on battery storage, the last quote I had was more than the solar install itself. I think the price is going to have to drop to closer to 2K for me.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DanceswithUnix
An electric car on every driveway would seem like an opportunity for grid energy storage rather than a problem.
No, just more rich people for Labour to tax! :lol:
How would it work for terraces and the like, where people don't have driveways and parking is so tight one usually ends up parking 6-800yds or more from one's domicile?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
A33 south of reading is fine. Right by the supercharger. 0-60 in 2.7 seconds
Upon that section (and all those North of it) is currently a 30mph speed restriction, due to 9 months of "road improvement" works... again....
I'd have thought the straight section South of Three Mile Cross would be a good one, with two sets of lights to play off... except the road surface turns rough as anything there, proper cheesegrater. I live just a bit off the A33 from there, incidentally.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttaskmaster
No, just more rich people for Labour to tax! :lol:
How would it work for terraces and the like, where people don't have driveways and parking is so tight one usually ends up parking 6-800yds or more from one's domicile?
Terraced housing with dedicated car parks would be ideal - stick charging stations in the car park. It's on-street parking that causes problems (including ones beyond just charging), and that's more an issue for urban planning (which most councils seem to suck at).
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttaskmaster
No, just more rich people for Labour to tax! :lol:
How would it work for terraces and the like, where people don't have driveways and parking is so tight one usually ends up parking 6-800yds or more from one's domicile?
That is an old and established problem for electric cars. Even with a driveway, I would have to have a charging post installed on the lawn because I can't really plug into the side of the house and the garage is already used. So where you charge is a tricky problem for many, but that washes out of the argument I was making.
The problem of supplying energy to electric cars is proportional to the number of owners currently plugged into the grid. The number of batteries available with stored energy in them is proportional to the number of electric cars currently plugged into the grid. The possible solution grows with the possible problem.
So yes, finding a way of charging may be hard, but some people are assuming that it will be solved by enough people to bring the grid down charging millions of cars. If no-one can plug their cars in, then I guess the problem goes (possibly tows ;) ) away.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dashers
Pfft, you need to up your game. 2.2kw baby. To be fair, so far this month has been a bit poor. Managed a 3.26 on 26th May.
I agree on battery storage, the last quote I had was more than the solar install itself. I think the price is going to have to drop to closer to 2K for me.
Oh, I was generating more, but I was running some domestic appliances, so my export was lower! :)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
It'll be interesting to see how things go. It's mostly on-street parking here. There are a few reserved car-club spaces (steadily increasing). I wouldn't be surprised if a chunk of these get charging points first (especially when 200 mile range cars become the norm).
If the software is done right, then electric cars could massively increase grid efficiency, by flattening out the 24/7 load and/or soaking up renewables when they're generating heavily with coordinated charging.
If it's done wrong, then it'll take the grid down.
I'm glad Tesla is taking the lead, because I trust them to get this right (given the number of software bugs in my Fiesta, I wouldn't trust the average car company).
This talk is excellent I think:
https://youtu.be/Pn9jgf6CXoc?t=38m42s
... it'll be interesting to see how things go.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Chargers built into lamp posts is one on-street strategy
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
while I'm genuinely interested in the Opening posters stuff... but Dashers account is closer to the reality of people's daily lives on the whole :)
great thread people :-)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
Chargers built into lamp posts is one on-street strategy
A good friend of mine with a Tesla living in Twickenham has joined a trial run for this. The premise is rather good, but unfortunately, the combination of the provider's high pricing with monthly subscription, the lack of posts and no markings reserving a few spots for EVs means the likelihood of her being to frequently benefit from this is unfortunately a bit on the low side.
I agree for those without off-street parking, then some form of charging via lamp posts or other tech is required for mass adoption.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Out of interest, are the charging cables locked in place when charging? Or could it turn into another evening activity of the local young scamps unplugging them?
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tyrannosaur
Out of interest, are the charging cables locked in place when charging? Or could it turn into another evening activity of the local young scamps unplugging them?
EU Teslas use a Mennekes charge connector, which can be locked in place with an electromagnet during use (this is typically a driver option to turn on or off)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tyrannosaur
Out of interest, are the charging cables locked in place when charging? Or could it turn into another evening activity of the local young scamps unplugging them?
As DH said, the Mennekes connector, known as a Type 2, can lock in place with a pin that drops in to secure the cable both in the car's charge port and at the Type 2 socket on the charge station.
Type 1, aka J1772 is a single-phase only charging plug / socket used on some other EVs like the Nissan Leaf, Mitsu Outlander. These don't have the auto lock feature, but some of the plugs have a securing hole on the trigger mechanism through which you can use a padlock to prevent someone pressing the button to unlock.
The locking feature is required also for safety to prevent someone pulling out the plug whilst charging which can lead to arcing and other dangerous things!
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
As DH said, the Mennekes connector, known as a Type 2, can lock in place with a pin that drops in to secure the cable both in the car's charge port and at the Type 2 socket on the charge station.
Type 1, aka J1772 is a single-phase only charging plug / socket used on some other EVs like the Nissan Leaf, Mitsu Outlander. These don't have the auto lock feature, but some of the plugs have a securing hole on the trigger mechanism through which you can use a padlock to prevent someone pressing the button to unlock.
The locking feature is required also for safety to prevent someone pulling out the plug whilst charging which can lead to arcing and other dangerous things!
Sadly, some local young scamps worked out that while the cable is padlocked to my car, they can unplug it from the wall once charging ends
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
Sadly, some local young scamps worked out that while the cable is padlocked to my car, they can unplug it from the wall once charging ends
That is actually good charging etiquette - you've finished charging so the post should be made available to others. Although normally, only someone else needing the charger would do it. At least if it is local scamps, they can't pinch the cable as it's still locked to the car.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
That is actually good charging etiquette - you've finished charging so the post should be made available to others. Although normally, only someone else needing the charger would do it. At least if it is local scamps, they can't pinch the cable as it's still locked to the car.
Not helpful when my car alarm goes off in the wee hours!
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
Chargers built into lamp posts is one on-street strategy
Unless the cables are long, I envision plenty of bad parking preventing chargers from reaching many cars... and plenty of people tripping over cables.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttaskmaster
Unless the cables are long, I envision plenty of bad parking preventing chargers from reaching many cars... and plenty of people tripping over cables.
Providing the lamp posts are by the road, then trip hazards should be non-existant, providing a parking space is available by the lamp post. Having a long cable would increase trip hazard, so having short one or any excess kept under car is the safe and practical solution :)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Perhaps the lamp posts could transfer power by microwave beam to the roof of the car, what could possibly go wrong? ;) :D
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
Providing the lamp posts are by the road, then trip hazards should be non-existant
Many are not, so you'll have to relocate a load of lamp posts, which will cost...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
providing a parking space is available by the lamp post.
Which they are often not.
So either you need more lamp posts or longer cables.
You're local - Go have a look at parking around the estates near Palmer Park. Grange and Pitcroft Avenues, for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
so having short one or any excess kept under car is the safe and practical solution :)
Excess is not practical, as people are lazy and will leave them trailing out.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttaskmaster
Many are not, so you'll have to relocate a load of lamp posts, which will cost...
Which they are often not.
So either you need more lamp posts or longer cables.
You're local - Go have a look at parking around the estates near Palmer Park. Grange and Pitcroft Avenues, for example.
Excess is not practical, as people are lazy and will leave them trailing out.
Right, blah blah, lots of problems.
It's still an improvement over feeding a BS1363 plug through a letterbox & having the cable dangling across the entire pavement. It's a technology whose availability can inform future planning, more than it can be used in retrofitting existing lights.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Surely the cars can just drive themselves off to the nearest available changing spot, then get a robot arm to plug themselves in. When they're done, pop back to the local street. Get the charging quick enough and a few cars could do the same thing in one spot overnight.
Sure it requires an upgrade to the charging points to make them be able to plug themselves in, but seems an easier option than trying to add a charging spot outside every house.
But then again, why own a car when you could just summon a self driving electric car to be at your front door?
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimbouk
Surely the cars can just drive themselves off to the nearest available changing spot, then get a robot arm to plug themselves in. When they're done, pop back to the local street. Get the charging quick enough and a few cars could do the same thing in one spot overnight.
Sure it requires an upgrade to the charging points to make them be able to plug themselves in, but seems an easier option than trying to add a charging spot outside every house.
Can't use smart grid without all those cars on the grid as load balancers.
Quote:
But then again, why own a car when you could just summon a self driving electric car to be at your front door?
This is why Uber has invested so much in self-drive tech
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
It's a technology whose availability can inform future planning, more than it can be used in retrofitting existing lights.
Plenty of things could hav been used for the future... but most are useless if they can't be implemented, if only with minimal fuss, to today's world. It has to be a multi-phase transition with effective implementation, or it just won't be adopted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimbouk
But then again, why own a car when you could just summon a self driving electric car to be at your front door?
The pleasure and the skill in driving it yourself?
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
Can't use smart grid without all those cars on the grid as load balancers.
No reason they can't park themselves somewhere useful any time they're not in use. The problem with any service with peaks in demand is if you want a good service you're going to have lulls. Cars parked in the factory/office car park, plugged in doing there thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
This is why Uber has invested so much in self-drive tech
Indeed and agreed! Haulage I'd imagine would be the bigger interest but I guess they're scalping a the smaller test-bed to gain public acceptance before hitting harder targets with more jobs lost for 'hard working white Americans' (PR/company ethics tin hats ahoy!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttaskmaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimbouk
But then again, why own a car when you could just summon a self driving electric car to be at your front door?
The pleasure and the skill in driving it yourself?
Hence owning 2 stupid cars that are fun to drive :) Yeah, wonder how many years before non-automated cars aren't allowed on the road in the UK (or at least major roads)? Being thirty-something I'd say in my lifetime. Non-automated, gas guzzling cars will go the way of horses, toys for the enthusiast to to enjoy rather than a practical form of transport. Still need to buy a V8 before all the petrol dries up :innocent:
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimbouk
Surely the cars can just drive themselves off to the nearest available changing spot, then get a robot arm to plug themselves in. When they're done, pop back to the local street. Get the charging quick enough and a few cars could do the same thing in one spot overnight.
Tesla do have a patent on that, so hopefully they will open that up like they have with others.
ISTR it involves driving over a plate that couples to the car from underneath rather than relying on the snake robot arm to unlock and locate the charging port. Ah yes, here you go:
https://electrek.co/2017/04/22/tesla...mate-charging/
Coupling up to the cooling system as well as the electrics is the key here to pushing a third of a megawatt into the batteries. Gulp!
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimbouk
But then again, why own a car when you could just summon a self driving electric car to be at your front door?
I think to many that technology already exists in the form of a "Taxi". Even removing the taxi-driver element, other forms of transport may be nicer.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Thanks for the link, the arm is really quite creepy!
https://i1.wp.com/electrek.files.wor...rger-gif-2.gif
I've pondered not owning a car (or a modern car and just having a classic for fun) and mixing together either taxis, hire cars or a car club. Certainly wouldn't cost any more per year given that I commute with a bike / train, but car ownership is a 'thing' - a bit like house ownership in this country. Hard to get away from it, and there's always the 'what if' moments such as when I jumped in and drove from Bristol to Glasgow to see my gran in hospital.
Anyhow, thoroughly derailed thread! I'm not really a 'new car' person so an electric car is many years away for me. I am more a fan of smaller cars though. I did try and work out a 'cheap' new electric car but it just wasn't practical for the type of use I have. Certainly good to see the more expensive ones actually being usable and used.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
One of the problems with the car club idea is that demand is hardly uniform. In London it's very difficult to get car club cars at weekends compared to mid week.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimbouk
Thanks for the link, the arm is really quite creepy!
https://i1.wp.com/electrek.files.wor...rger-gif-2.gif
I've pondered not owning a car (or a modern car and just having a classic for fun) and mixing together either taxis, hire cars or a car club. Certainly wouldn't cost any more per year given that I commute with a bike / train, but car ownership is a 'thing' - a bit like house ownership in this country. Hard to get away from it, and there's always the 'what if' moments such as when I jumped in and drove from Bristol to Glasgow to see my gran in hospital.
Anyhow, thoroughly derailed thread! I'm not really a 'new car' person so an electric car is many years away for me. I am more a fan of smaller cars though. I did try and work out a 'cheap' new electric car but it just wasn't practical for the type of use I have. Certainly good to see the more expensive ones actually being usable and used.
Don't drop anything nearby....
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
What happened to the idea of installing wireless charging into new roads, so that cars charged as they drove?
Even if it was only installed in motorways it would reduce range issues markedly.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hb904460
What happened to the idea of installing wireless charging into new roads, so that cars charged as they drove?
Even if it was only installed in motorways it would reduce range issues markedly.
Cost I assume. Would be such low utilisation for 10 years that it can't be economical. Perhaps in a bus lane for busses and taxis?
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
If you redid the slow lane of motorways with inductive charging you could substantially lighten trucks. There's got to be a sizeable proportion of the haulage fleet that spends their working life cruising from one business park by a motorway junction to another destination right by a motorway, and a truck that was only a few dozen miles worth of batteries and electric motors might be a lot easier to push down the road than the usual kind. Depends on how many trucks have that use case, and whether the inefficiencies of the inductive charging work out on the right side of the usual diesel efficiency of course.
It's not the best use for electric, as emissions from motorways aren't a huge health hazard (compared to an equal amount of N2O in the centre of a city, for example), but it might be worth looking into
ETA: This is the kind of use that would be best served with a train, if there was any spare room on the rail network. The similarity with an electric locomotive using overhead wires or a third rail is really an outcome of the requirement
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xlucine
ETA: This is the kind of use that would be best served with a train, if there was any spare room on the rail network. The similarity with an electric locomotive using overhead wires or a third rail is really an outcome of the requirement
My morning commute on the train works out at about 50p per mile, so I'm guessing being electric isn't helping costs much there. I do wonder if self driving electric taxis are more likely to kill off trains than private cars. 50p per mile is a lot to be crammed into a vehicle that doesn't quite go where you want to go or at the time you want to go there. But at least you get the opportunity to get stuff stolen off your bike from the bike sheds :(
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DanceswithUnix
I think to many that technology already exists in the form of a "Taxi". Even removing the taxi-driver element, other forms of transport may be nicer.
Tesla already have this in the pipeline. The idea being you drive to work in your car, but once there, you car is made available to others as a transport service. You get some revenue for your car not sitting in a car park for the whole day. Then, it will ensure it's back at the car park for you to drive (or be driven) home.
The model exists, although of course, isn't being put into application right now, but it shows that Tesla are forward thinking and would like to offer this up for those who wish to partake in it.
My Model S is on AP1 / HW1 so whilst I have Autopilot for main roads, it doesn't have the hardware for fully autonomous driving.
Order an AP2 car however, and they list it as an option.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-.../i-sxdqk7f.png
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
Tesla already have this in the pipeline. The idea being you drive to work in your car, but once there, you car is made available to others as a transport service. You get some revenue for your car not sitting in a car park for the whole day. Then, it will ensure it's back at the car park for you to drive (or be driven) home.
The model exists, although of course, isn't being put into application right now, but it shows that Tesla are forward thinking and would like to offer this up for those who wish to partake in it.
....
I can't see that working, for Tesla, at least on current models.
I'd question how many people that can afford £70k to £160k cars are so desperate for "revenue" from them that they're willing to risk getting some unknown oik use it as a taxi, at anything remotely resembling the kind of rate people will pay for a taxi.
Personally, there's exactly no chance I'd do that. If I needed the revenue that badly, I couldn't afford the Tesla in the first place. I'd rather slum it, spend 'only' £50k or so on a Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, etc, and forego the "revenue".
And that's if the car were fully automated. If the "unknown oik" was actually driving, the circumstances don't exist where I'd be willing to rent out a performance or luxury car unless I had an ironclad guarantee that "you break it (or even scratch it), you bought it).
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
It's a paradigm shift really. Regardless of the financial value of the car, a lot of people (myslef included) would have some reservations to doing it. It's all about changing the way see cars as personal vehicles and making them less personal and more as a service. You wouldn't have to enrol if you didn't like the look of it, and to be fair, we're still a few years away from perhaps the tech and certainly legislation permitting it.
Also, what's to say the oik would actually drive it? It could potentially be just an autonomous service. The guy just informs where he wants to go and sit in the back, just like a JohnnyCab in Total Recall :)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
It's a paradigm shift really. Regardless of the financial value of the car, a lot of people (myslef included) would have some reservations to doing it. It's all about changing the way see cars as personal vehicles and making them less personal and more as a service. You wouldn't have to enrol if you didn't like the look of it, and to be fair, we're still a few years away from perhaps the tech and certainly legislation permitting it.
Also, what's to say the oik would actually drive it? It could potentially be just an autonomous service. The guy just informs where he wants to go and sit in the back, just like a JohnnyCab in Total Recall :)
I hear you, but even if the oik isn't driving, you don't know what else he/the/they are doing in your car .... especially if they're not having to drive it. I mean, for example, said oik has had 15 pints and a curry, and proceeds to upchuck the lot all over the Connolly leather and Wilton-carpetted interior of your pride and joy.
Unfortunately, there's a proportion of the population, and it may be a minority but I'd suggest it's a sizeable one, that has little or no respect for other people's property, as many landlords renting out houses have discovered to their considerable cost.
Personally ... and obviously I can only speak personally, I would be prepared to use such a service as an "oik", but no way, no way in hell, am I buying a car and then letting it be used as a taxi.
Again, personally speaking, a very large part of why I buy a car is for personal transport. A very large part of that is having there when I want it, unplanned abd at a moment's notice. Another part is having my knick-knacks in it, be it my spare coat, or a personal music selection for my expensive car sound system, my choice of sweets or an emergrncy dose of medication.
If all I wanted was a car on call, then I can do that now with a choice of personal hire car services, calling a cab, booking an uber or renting a car. bring prepared to suffer depreciation, pay insurance, servicing costs etc, is all about having personal transport, at my beck and call, on a whim. Why buy a car if it's no longer 'personal'. I just don't see it, I'm afraid.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
If you need the revenue, sell the Tesla and buy a Toyota UBER.... I mean, Camry....
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
Why buy a car if it's no longer 'personal'. I just don't see it, I'm afraid.
Why buy a house when you already have one? I think this is the car version of buy-to-let, *if* the car can turn a profit if just permanently turned loose then it becomes a simple return on investment calculation. If Tesla take a slice of the money as part of the service, then they get to make money from other people putting up the capital.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DanceswithUnix
Why buy a house when you already have one? I think this is the car version of buy-to-let, *if* the car can turn a profit if just permanently turned loose then it becomes a simple return on investment calculation. If Tesla take a slice of the money as part of the service, then they get to make money from other people putting up the capital.
But "buy to let" cars isn't what's under discussion. It's renting out your car for short-term "taxi" use by utter unknowns.
As for houses, buy-to-let is one thing but I can think of NO circumstances, short of utter desperation, where I'd rent a room in my home out, let alone to a complete unknown, by the hour. And for much the same "it's personal" reason. In my home, I'm the King of my castle and, subject only the the joint rule of my Queen, could not relax with strangers wandering on and out of rented rooms. I want to ge able go wander around in the buff if I want, or play music or watch TV with the sound up, or Hoover at stupid-o'clock, if it suits me, without inconveniencing others, or being inconvenienced by others doing the same
A buy-to-let property is an investment, not a home. A buy-to-taxi car is a business decision and that, after due diligence, I might do, but rent out my own car, especially if it's a Tesla-priced car, oh hell, no. Not a hope in hell. You will see me renting my car out on some kind of time-share shortly after you see the King of Hell dancing the fandango in a pink tutu, while singing Abba's Dancing Queen.
And if you do see that, I expect video proof. ;) :D
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
As for houses, buy-to-let is one thing but I can think of NO circumstances, short of utter desperation, where I'd rent a room in my home out, let alone to a complete unknown, by the hour........I want to ge able go wander around in the buff if I want....
I think that in situations where rooms are rented out by the hour, walking round in the buff wouldn't be an issue at all!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
opel80uk
I think that in situations where rooms are rented out by the hour, walking round in the buff wouldn't be an issue at all!!! :mrgreen:
Seen me in the buff? I wouldn't say there's no issue .... unless I was renting rooms by the 10 seconds. And bolted the exit.
And we do seem to have gone quite a long way off-topic. ;)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
directhex
Chargers built into lamp posts is one on-street strategy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
But "buy to let" cars isn't what's under discussion. It's renting out your car for short-term "taxi" use by utter unknowns.
Just trying to make sure you see the big picture, it isn't all about you ;) :)
We see the word "disruptive" thrown about way too much in computing for minor increments in technology, but this is a case where where it could well apply. It doesn't fit your current use case of cars, but it isn't a current usage of a car so that isn't surprising. The point is that it might fit into enough people's car usage.
Think of what people commonly want from a car:
1/ To go shopping
2/ Get to work and back
3/ Status symbol by being newer than what the neighbours have on their drive
4/ A toy for people who enjoy driving
There are probably enough people for who a car is utility enough that they don't bother, but if they could have one for free because it paid for itself that is a factor in getting one. People who think having a depreciating asset idle on the drive isn't acceptable. Possibly they get a luxury car upgrade, Focus to Tesla paid for by taxi rides.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DanceswithUnix
Just trying to make sure you see the big picture, it isn't all about you ;) :)
We see the word "disruptive" thrown about way too much in computing for minor increments in technology, but this is a case where where it could well apply. It doesn't fit your current use case of cars, but it isn't a current usage of a car so that isn't surprising. The point is that it might fit into enough people's car usage.
Think of what people commonly want from a car:
1/ To go shopping
2/ Get to work and back
3/ Status symbol by being newer than what the neighbours have on their drive
4/ A toy for people who enjoy driving
There are probably enough people for who a car is utility enough that they don't bother, but if they could have one for free because it paid for itself that is a factor in getting one. People who think having a depreciating asset idle on the drive isn't acceptable. Possibly they get a luxury car upgrade, Focus to Tesla paid for by taxi rides.
Of course it's not all about me, but the only decision I have control over is my one. So, if I explain why, for me, I wouldn't do this, it is at least plausible that either a lot of other people either wouldn't, or can explain why their decision would be different.
Believe it or not, the REASON I have repeatedly stressed the "for me" or "personally" bit is that I'm fully aware it's not just about me. But it seems to me that the only opinion ANYBODY here can express is their own.
So, we're talking about a Tesla plan. Currently, and again I stressed 'for current generations', that means we're talking about high-end cars, price-wise. By which I man, what, roughly £65k to £165k?
That's equivalent tp upper mid-range, to high end BMW, Mercedes, etc.
My contention is that very, VERY few people with the wherewithal to buy cars in that category will care enough about a modest revenue from renting their car out as a taxi to be prepared to do so. Clearly, if you can afford cars in that category, you aren't worrying about how to pay the gas bill or put food on the table. Nobody, other than a complete moron, spends that on a car, S opposed to a meagre, say, £30-£40k, on a lower mid-range Beemer or Merc, or high-end VW, Toyora, etc, unless the marginal value of the extra pound is, to them, pretty low. And if the marginal value is pretty low, then the marhinal value of the few quid in income from renting out your pride and joy is low.
Now, the "big picture" you refer to. If you mean, some years in the future, will there be a plethora of automated, self-driving electric cars where you can hail (or summon) one, Uber-like, and go from A to B then pay, get out and forget it? Very possibly.
But I'll make you a bet. They won't be, in real terms, in the current £65k-£165k range. They will be at or close to 'basic' spec. And, unless government explicitly outlaws them, those that can afford it will still have their own personal, private automated, self-driving electric car, which will be in that upper price group and the fittings and equipment level will still duly differentiate them and they still won't be renting them out as taxi's.
As for me personally, if I'm still breathing by then, I expect to be in the "hail when you need one" category. Why? Because as I get older I'm finding both my need to and inclination to leave home at all decreasing. I don't need to for work any more, and the occasions when I choose to are minimal. And, for social reasons, I don't do either a huge number of journeys or much of a mileage.
So if I want to get to/from the local supermarket, or whatever, I'd cheerfully summon one of those basic models, and for long journeys, I'd cheerfully pay a premium to summon an Uber-type S-Class or similar. And not have a car at all.
But what I won't do, now or in the future, is buy a premium price car and rent it out.
But I'd be interested to see the logic of why someone that can afford a premium-priced car would then rent it out. I think they'll either (for £65k to £165k) buy between 2 and 8 basic cars and rent them out full-time, or they'll view the benefit of not having some oik puke up, ir smash up, yoy expensive personal ride as of more value than the modest (compared to cost) profit margin on renting it out.
But please feel free to point out why your personal opinion of the "big picture" is more valid than my personal opinion of it.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
I reckon the whole concept of people able to rent out their cars while at work is far more for the Model 3 target. I don't know whether many will want to do it with Model S / X cars...
However, I've been in discussion with a certain Tesla-only car rental company operating mainly out of airports, and they're now taking on renting out your own car whilst you're away. Really interesting concept. I pay for them to park / store / clean / charge my car. But whilst I'm away, and only if I sign up for it, I can offer to make my car available for hire. In that case, as well as hiring their own cars, they offer customers' cars too, paying a premium as they're more highly specced. I then get a payout for the rental which covers way more that what I pay for them to look after it.
They have a pretty strict rental policy with insurance and everything covered, so I am tempted when I fly away for a week. If my car gets hired out for a day, someone else gets to enjoy it, and I get some revenue for its use. This is totally separate and nothing to do with autonomous driving, but the model is there. :)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
I reckon the whole concept of people able to rent out their cars while at work is far more for the Model 3 target. I don't know whether many will want to do it with Model S / X cars...
However, I've been in discussion with a certain Tesla-only car rental company operating mainly out of airports, and they're now taking on renting out your own car whilst you're away. Really interesting concept. I pay for them to park / store / clean / charge my car. But whilst I'm away, and only if I sign up for it, I can offer to make my car available for hire. In that case, as well as hiring their own cars, they offer customers' cars too, paying a premium as they're more highly specced. I then get a payout for the rental which covers way more that what I pay for them to look after it.
They have a pretty strict rental policy with insurance and everything covered, so I am tempted when I fly away for a week. If my car gets hired out for a day, someone else gets to enjoy it, and I get some revenue for its use. This is totally separate and nothing to do with autonomous driving, but the model is there. :)
Do you really trust some stranger with your £150k (-ish) car, though? Do you trust them to, first, be able to handle the performance, and second, treat with the respect you would?
I hear you abour insurance, etc, but (IMHO) it's not really adequate. Suppose the try to show off, and wrap it around an oak tree. You've got the hassle and aggravation of sorting it out, and your car will never feel the same afterwards anyway.
I agree it's far more likely at the Model 3 end, but there's a problem there, too, IMHO. It's the psychology.
In general, if you can afford a £150k car, and are interested enough to spend that, and to do it on ...what was it, the "ludicrous' option, yet at the same time it's a carefully considered purchase not a whim, then you're probably pretty car-centric. You're probably in the 'wealthy enough to afford it, but it's an aspirational thing' category.
By contrast, if you were wondering past the showroom and though "Oooh, cool, I'll have one" then it's a whim.
The difference, really, is whether it matters to you. I can see the latter renting it out without being bothered, but then, if it's a whim it's probably one of a dozen or more such cars and if you've that kind of wealth, the marginal value to you of the rental income is probably far less than the risk of personal inconvenience.
The psychology bit is that if you've got a Model 3 (when available) it's probably because you can't afford an S or X, in ehich case, the 3 is as aspirational, and important, to them as your version is to you.
I can see the appeal to the rental company. The get a part of the revenue stream without having to invest the capital. That's a no-brainer.
Two things though. There obviously is some market for renting out high end cars. After all, you can rent a Ferrari now. At a price. Ever seen the state of some "supercar" rentals?
Secondly, where I can see a potential, even at the £150k end, is where you can rent like-for-like with what you own. Many of my concerns would be significantly less if I knew the 'oik' wanting to rent my £150k Tesla already owned one himself. So, I leave mine at Heathrow, for rental, and I rent one for a few days at Monaco, or wherever. But that strikes me as pretty niche.
Anyway, I guess time will tell if it works.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
BTW, picking up my new electric vehicle, hopefully, tomorrow. It's not as quick as yours, though.
;)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
BTW, picking up my new electric vehicle, hopefully, tomorrow. It's not as quick as yours, though.
;)
I got a new one last week, big upgrade on my current one. It has 5 cutting heights instead of 3.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spacein_vader
I got a new one last week, big upgrade on my current one. It has 5 cutting heights instead of 3.
Got you beat, then. 6 heights.
Oh, and a strimmer/brushcutter, too.
I don't plan on renting it out, though. :D
Don't expect to see me cruising the fast lane of tbe M1 anytime soon.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
Got you beat, then. 6 heights.
Oh, and a strimmer/brushcutter, too.
I don't plan on renting it out, though. :D
Don't expect to see me cruising the fast lane of tbe M1 anytime soon.
I'm jealous.
Wouldn't go as far as renting it out but wouldn't be averse to the neighbours borrowing it in a pinch.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
I'm reminded of the adage "there isn't a 4x4 made that will go where you can take a rental car"
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
Do you really trust some stranger with your £150k (-ish) car, though? Do you trust them to, first, be able to handle the performance, and second, treat with the respect you would?
I hear you abour insurance, etc, but (IMHO) it's not really adequate. Suppose the try to show off, and wrap it around an oak tree. You've got the hassle and aggravation of sorting it out, and your car will never feel the same afterwards anyway.
I agree it's far more likely at the Model 3 end, but there's a problem there, too, IMHO. It's the psychology.
In general, if you can afford a £150k car, and are interested enough to spend that, and to do it on ...what was it, the "ludicrous' option, yet at the same time it's a carefully considered purchase not a whim, then you're probably pretty car-centric. You're probably in the 'wealthy enough to afford it, but it's an aspirational thing' category.
By contrast, if you were wondering past the showroom and though "Oooh, cool, I'll have one" then it's a whim.
The difference, really, is whether it matters to you. I can see the latter renting it out without being bothered, but then, if it's a whim it's probably one of a dozen or more such cars and if you've that kind of wealth, the marginal value to you of the rental income is probably far less than the risk of personal inconvenience.
The psychology bit is that if you've got a Model 3 (when available) it's probably because you can't afford an S or X, in ehich case, the 3 is as aspirational, and important, to them as your version is to you.
I can see the appeal to the rental company. The get a part of the revenue stream without having to invest the capital. That's a no-brainer.
Two things though. There obviously is some market for renting out high end cars. After all, you can rent a Ferrari now. At a price. Ever seen the state of some "supercar" rentals?
Secondly, where I can see a potential, even at the £150k end, is where you can rent like-for-like with what you own. Many of my concerns would be significantly less if I knew the 'oik' wanting to rent my £150k Tesla already owned one himself. So, I leave mine at Heathrow, for rental, and I rent one for a few days at Monaco, or wherever. But that strikes me as pretty niche.
Anyway, I guess time will tell if it works.
I have been thinking long and hard about this. I volunteered for the trial and have received some litterature they've put together that covers the rental stuff. I've had long discussions with the owner as to how best go about this, limiting risk, etc.
The normal Tesla rental is £150/day all in. If a client decides to take another customer's car, then the pricing varies depending on the spec of the car. For my P90DL (and P100D models), daily cost is double that. The thought is it's high enough to discourage tyre kickers. I had the reverse psychology: if an oik pays £300/day, then I wondered if they then thought entitled to do what they like...
When it comes to Tesla owners, it's quite common for someone to lend out their car to another Tesla owner in trouble, FOC, or in exchange of a few beers or something else. There is a lot of trust amongst the community and on the private Tesla Facebook groups. Of course, this all goes out the window as soon as it's a public hiring service. Nonetheless, I admire and trust (probably naively) that an renter will look after the car. There are of course the charging elements one needs to know about a little bit so there is a minimal amount of education / recommendation given.
As the service hasn't gone properly live yet, this is all speculation and no doubt pricing / policies will be tweaked after a few weeks / months so it reflects better the business needs and renting demand.
Your comment on supercar hiring is interesting and I hadn't thought to look and see how it compares to what is being offered with the Tesla. :)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peterb
I'm reminded of the adage "there isn't a 4x4 made that will go where you can take a rental car"
I'd never heard that before but love it!
It does worry me a little though considering mine is 4x4... :telephone: :D
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
Do you really trust some stranger with your £150k (-ish) car, though? Do you trust them to, first, be able to handle the performance, and second, treat with the respect you would?
I would trust them with the performance because with an autonomous driving taxi service they won't get a choice on that. Someone so drunk that fluids are streaming out of both ends is the worry, the rental service would have to have some stonking guarantees that they would detail the car afterwards.
When I specced a Tesla out it came to under 100K, which was well outside my work car allowance but then I needed a long range as part of the spec and they can be cheaper. As a 3 year old second hand vehicle you can get one for 50K.
So yes, time will tell. Perhaps someone who can just get the money together for a second hand car will use a taxi mode to help cover the costs. Perhaps companies will buy a fleet of Teslas instead of company cars and add them to the local pool when not in use. Perhaps when someone's car gets to 3 years old they will just set it loose to fend for itself and make money and go buy a new one, that is the thing with disruptive technologies you really can't tell if or how it will eventually work.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
... I had the reverse psychology: if an oik pays £300/day, then I wondered if they then thought entitled to do what they like... ...
I'd imagine that with a minimum £150/day hire the deposit will be pretty hefty too, and there'd be a pretty steep excess (for instance, on the runabouts I hire from Enterprise the standard excess is £1000). Knowing that each single instance of damage could set you back £1000 is a huge incentive to be pretty damn careful how you drive ;)
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DanceswithUnix
My morning commute on the train works out at about 50p per mile, so I'm guessing being electric isn't helping costs much there. I do wonder if self driving electric taxis are more likely to kill off trains than private cars. 50p per mile is a lot to be crammed into a vehicle that doesn't quite go where you want to go or at the time you want to go there. But at least you get the opportunity to get stuff stolen off your bike from the bike sheds :(
That MIT Club of Northern California video I posted had loads of stuff on public transport vs. self driving car vs. bike costs per passenger mile etc. https://youtu.be/Pn9jgf6CXoc?t=4m36s his analysis is that they would (or at least should) kill low utilisation bus routes. Plenty of numbers in the video re trains vs. other methods too.
Self driving cars should eventually make bikes (electric or otherwise) a less stressful and safer option too (not to mention electrification vs. the occasional lung full of diesel particulates) . The figures on relative safety of different car drivers is enlightening:
https://youtu.be/Pn9jgf6CXoc?t=1h15s
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TimSmall
Self driving cars should eventually make bikes (electric or otherwise) a less stressful and safer option too
Alas, motorcycles and bicycles will be very short-lived, once cars start to drive themselves.
Initially it will be great - Every car driving perfectly central along the road at uniform speed and with very little random lane-swapping, leaving a nice uniform gap between lanes through which bikes can happily whizz...
But then, human-controlled vehicles will be deemed too unpredictable, too unsafe and too dangerous to be permitted on the road. Two-wheelers of all kinds will thus be banned in short order.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DanceswithUnix
I would trust them with the performance because with an autonomous driving taxi service they won't get a choice on that. Someone so drunk that fluids are streaming out of both ends is the worry, the rental service would have to have some stonking guarantees that they would detail the car afterwards.
When I specced a Tesla out it came to under 100K, which was well outside my work car allowance but then I needed a long range as part of the spec and they can be cheaper. As a 3 year old second hand vehicle you can get one for 50K.
So yes, time will tell. Perhaps someone who can just get the money together for a second hand car will use a taxi mode to help cover the costs. Perhaps companies will buy a fleet of Teslas instead of company cars and add them to the local pool when not in use. Perhaps when someone's car gets to 3 years old they will just set it loose to fend for itself and make money and go buy a new one, that is the thing with disruptive technologies you really can't tell if or how it will eventually work.
I did say somewhere that the downside reduces once we have fully autonomous cars. But even then, there's a risk of carelessness damaging the interior, expensive leather. And con't forget plain human jealousy and envy can make people do plain nasty things just because you can afford things they can't. I speak from experience of being on the receiving end, with cars, and more than once.
And my bet is fully autonomous cars on the road, as normal, is some way off yet.
On that point, tfboy, bear in mind the "oik" renting your car might decide where he wants to go, and leave it parked, is in an area of town that you wouldn't dream of leaving your car unless it had an SAS squad guarding it. The ooint is you don't know where it'll end up.
On the cost, Dances, I did start out by saying "£70k to £160k". Yes, you can get Tesla's for £100k, but high-spec'd top-end models will be £160k or more.
I remember looking at a 3-series Beemer in the 80's and thinking "Wow, 9k isn't that bad .... until you spec it up. By the time you've added nice seats, alloys, sunroof, etc, etc, it was £19k. These days, the base price has gone up, in relative terms and the option list down, but even so, the bare catalog price and the price the buyer ends up paying can be way, WAY different.
Bear in mind that if you have someone even seriously contemplating £70k, let alone £100k or more, they have a LOT of options for very nice cars that will cost much less, so they have already demonstrated an willingness to indulge themselves and spend serious money doing it.
After all a £70k base model of car X is competing with a £50k car Y with £20k of options. Also, if you can spend £70k on a car you can probably spend £80k, or even £100k, if you really want to. Anything in that price range is either a high-priority indulgence for those pushing to afford it, or a whim for those that can do it on a whim.
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tfboy
I have been thinking long and hard about this. I volunteered for the trial and have received some litterature they've put together that covers the rental stuff. I've had long discussions with the owner as to how best go about this, limiting risk, etc.
The normal Tesla rental is £150/day all in. If a client decides to take another customer's car, then the pricing varies depending on the spec of the car. For my P90DL (and P100D models), daily cost is double that. The thought is it's high enough to discourage tyre kickers. I had the reverse psychology: if an oik pays £300/day, then I wondered if they then thought entitled to do what they like...
When it comes to Tesla owners, it's quite common for someone to lend out their car to another Tesla owner in trouble, FOC, or in exchange of a few beers or something else. There is a lot of trust amongst the community and on the private Tesla Facebook groups. Of course, this all goes out the window as soon as it's a public hiring service. Nonetheless, I admire and trust (probably naively) that an renter will look after the car. There are of course the charging elements one needs to know about a little bit so there is a minimal amount of education / recommendation given.
As the service hasn't gone properly live yet, this is all speculation and no doubt pricing / policies will be tweaked after a few weeks / months so it reflects better the business needs and renting demand.
Your comment on supercar hiring is interesting and I hadn't thought to look and see how it compares to what is being offered with the Tesla. :)
I'm not so sure £300/day would discourage all tyre-kickers. I mean, it's not that much. If someone offered me a P90DL for £300 for the day, I'd be tempted, if only because it'd give me a chance to put the car well through it's paces without bothering with dealers, test drives, etc. It kinda legitimises giving it a workout. I mean, I'm certainly not going to set out to wreck it, and undoubtedly wouldn't, but nor am I going to respect it the way I would if it was mine. After all, it's a 'rental'.
As for your car being insured, well, put it this way, tfboy. Some years ago, I had occasion to talk to BMW's Press office about a loaner M5 for a project. It was legit, I was a journalist with a valid project and a commission, and fairly experienced with high performance cars .... as an owner of a brand new M3. BMW were cooperative, but did stress to me that while they expected a car like an M5 to be, I think the phrase was "appropriately and properly tested" they had just recently received one back from a certain TV program that seemed to think that phrase meant taking it onto private property and seeing how big a cloud of tyre smoke they could generate pulling non-stop doughnuts with it. It went out with brand new tyres and came back with them bald and worn to the cords.
I don't know about you, but if it's MY high-end car, it seems to me there's plenty an "oik" could do with it that's not bad enough to be an insurance claim, but is WAY beyond what I'd do to, or allow to be done to, my car. I can almost see three or four "young gentlemen" using it for a pub crawl, perhaps at the other end of the country. Or some randy young "oik" seeing how much pulling power it has, and I don't mean torque. Do you want to risk your nice Tesla bring used as a beer coach one night and a portable knocking shop the next?
Do you smoke? If, like me you don't, how about getting your car back smelling like a week-old ash tray?
And another thing .... how do you like dealing with hassle at airports, when you get back from a trip?
So .... scenario. You go away and rent out your car. When you get back, before accepting your car back from the "rental" company, you're going to have to go over it with a fine tooth'd comb, and a forensic microscope. If you don't, and accept tbe car back, and the next day discover damage, I'd bet my left gonad the rental company will deny any and all liability, as you signed to accept the car back. So you need a very thorough check when you book it in, and a doubly thorough one, inside and out, when you take it back from them. After all, if the rental company miss something when they take the car back from the renter, they surely won't tell you and will hope you miss it on the inspection.
Do you want all the potential hassle? Is it worth it for the rental income?
Obviously, it's a personal decision, and I grant you, I'm of an age and temperament where I am extremely hassle-averse, and go quite a way, and to lengths, to avoid getting into hassle. I have enough to do and life's short enough to spent it checking my car over or arguing liability with the rental company.
Personally, far from wanting the daily rental while I'm away, I get a local car hire firm to drive to to and collect me from the airport, or cruise terminal. It costs a couple of hundred, but saves on hassle .... and parking charges because my car's safely at home in the garage.
Maybe none of thjs bothers you. Maybe you'll take the rental income and put up with the hassle-risk. If so, fair enough. Your call. But me? Nah, I don't think so.
As I said, I see why the rental company like it but, for me, £300/day? Not even close to enough. YMMV, as they say. ;) :D
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Thanks for that. Interesting stuff :)
I know the rental company, they specialise in Tesla and have a very clear policy on responsibility. They say:
"Prior to rental, our team carefully prepare and inspect each Tesla, removing and safely storing any personal items and cleaning the interior of the vehicle. The exterior is cleaned using contactless methods to eliminate any chance of paintwork damage.
The Client receives a comprehensive handover of the vehicle, ensuring they understand the various features and functions fully. They are provided with a direct line to our team throughout their rental to use as required for support and assistance.
Upon return, the car is inspected and any damage is recorded and charged for immediately. The car is then cleaned ready for the Owner, or the next Client."
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Re: Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saracen
I did say somewhere that the downside reduces once we have fully autonomous cars. But even then, there's a risk of carelessness damaging the interior, expensive leather. And con't forget plain human jealousy and envy can make people do plain nasty things just because you can afford things they can't. I speak from experience of being on the receiving end, with cars, and more than once.
And my bet is fully autonomous cars on the road, as normal, is some way off yet.
<snip>
On the cost, Dances, I did start out by saying "£70k to £160k". Yes, you can get Tesla's for £100k, but high-spec'd top-end models will be £160k or more.
If you go back and re-read: http://forums.hexus.net/automotive/3...ml#post3821992
then Tesla's rental service is predicated on their autonomous driving software working. They believably claim they are not far off being safer than a human.
I'm sure you are right that a car specced up to 160K isn't going to end up in any rental scheme, but then most cars sold are not top spec but are best you can get within a certain budget often set by a level of company allowance and the lease deal you can get.