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Thread: The most important titles of all time - your picks?

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    Vive le pants! directhex's Avatar
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    The most important titles of all time - your picks?

    I was having a think about this last night.

    If you had to pick a limited selection of the most important games made, a sort of "essential gaming list" for the uninitiated, what would you put on it?

    Some rules, first:

    1) Up to 4 games per platform, absolute maximum. For PC, make it 4 for the MS-DOS era, 4 for the Win9x era, 4 for the XP era.

    2) Don't just name names, say WHY - especially your reasons for a particular game in a series.

    3) If you have no experience of games for a given platform, don't bother. I never played on an amiga, so I won't embarass myself with an amiga list.

    4) Only mention a particular series *once* - though paradigm shifts are allowed. e.g. Duke Nukem 2 and Duke Nukem 3D are conceptually different games - but Half Life and Half Life 2 are straight sequels.

    So: my pick list.

    PC - when gamers knew what emm386 did
    Playing games in the MS-DOS era wasn't just rewarding - getting them working was part of the fun. Boot disks, editing config files, ah, those were the days. Remember, kids, DEVICEHIGH= is better than DEVICE=!
    • Doom II: Hell on Earth. Absolutely no doubt, Doom is an absolutely vital piece of games history - and more to the point, it also rocks. Doom 2 added nothing by way of gameplay over the first game (and to be honest, hardly deserves to be called a full sequel), but the level design was absoutely divine.
    • Command and Conquer. This isn't the first RTS, but it's probably the first really polished one. More importantly, it's also probably the best in the series, where the units were still relatively balanced.
    • Sid Meier's Civilization 2. Civ2 was little more than a graphical update to Civ, all things considered, but the improved Windows 3.1-based GUI made the management of your empire FAR simpler
    • The Secret of Monkey Island. My, how far LucasArts have fallen. Back in the early-mid ninties, they made some of the most original, innovative and funny games around. Now? Star wars tripe. Monkey Island is a prime example of the most important in the "point & click" genre, with a witty and funny story, and puzzles to keep you entertained for hours. MI2 was also a fine production, but MI introduced the three-headed monkey.


    NES - when gamers couldn't give a **** what emm386 did
    Actually, I couldn't think of any games on the NES that really, truly warranted icnlusion more than their sequels. And this from a man with a (working) NES in the living room, hooked up to his 26" HDTV.

    SNES - when gamers had no reason to care what emm386 did
    The SNES was host to a great many games - some of them were even good. Not quite as "cool" as Sega's Megadrive, often home to stupidly censored versions of games (Shadowrun and Mortal Kombat, for example), it is still a worthy machine today, with some of the most exciting & interesting titles about
    • The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. The Zelda franchise is one of the most deserving of inclusion in this list, and Zelda 3 stands as the finest title in the series. For a 2D top-down game, the atmosphere is incredible - thanks largely to the expertly crafted soundtrack. I can't get enoguh of this game - and I keep my cart, autographed by Miyamoto himself, proudly on a shelf.
    • Chrono Trigger. Squaresoft have released a lot of role-playing games to console owners. And, my confession is: I've played about four Final Fantasy games, and hated them all. Chrono Trigger, on the other hand, is Square's finest hour. A Japanese-style RPG of the finest calibre, with an emotive, twisty, turny storyline, multiple endings, and spiky ginger hair. Do yourself a favour, and track this down!
    • Super Metroid. Super metroid is an odd game to pigeonhole into a genre. Is it a platform game? It's got lots of platforms, after all. Is it a shooter? After all, you shoot lots. RPG? Adventure game? Let's just settle on "brilliant". Crafted by Gunpei Yokoi (one of the lead designers of the Game Boy), this side-scrolling platform-rpg-adventure saw you exploring a mysterious alien planet as an armour-suit-clad bounty hunter, attempting to track down a kidnapped Metroid parasitic alien. Making superb use of sound, and all the hardware grunt of the SNES, this game helped define games with big guns in as more than straight blasters - and is again an essential play for any serious gamer.
    • Donkey Kong Country. Rareware, once a Nintendo second-party developer, did the unthinkable with DKC - they took an established, popular Nintendo franchise, and made something better. For the time, DKC's graphics were incredible - instead of hand-drawn sprites, it featured (2D) characters captured from detailed 3D models. The levels were detailed, varied, fun to play, and full of secrets to discover. These have recently been re-released on GBA, if you feel like a play.


    PC - when gamers stopped caring what emm386 did
    Windows 95 promised to make all that config file fiddling history. It didn't, of course, but it was a nice idea - and eventually, games were pretty simple to install and get working, even with 3D once 3dFX and Glide sorted their act out.
    • Blade Runner. What Monkey Island started, BR finished - the last great point and click game of our era. At the time requiring an unfathomable system to run (over a Gig of space? ), Blade Runner had some of the most detailed characters imaginable - with about thirteen endings (I've done about seven of them) based entirely on how you play. Good cop? Bad cop? Your call!
    • Half Life. What Half-Life added to the FPS genre, when you boil it down, is three things - it eliminated the concept of "levels", allowing you to move smoothly between areas and revisiting existing areas where needed; it added fairly detailed (for its day) AI, where enemies would retreat, hide, or whatever; and it added a detailed scripting system, allowing for cool effects like enemies knocking down doors. Just remember to stop playing as soon as you see the word "Xen" on the screen, and it's all good!
    • System Shock 2. SS2 is probably the best "scary" game on the PC. What makes it scary isn't the zombies, per se, it's the ship itself - the idea of tiptoeing around the Von Braun, bodies strewn everywhere, with a mechanical, unthinking, yet very menacing ship AI aware of your very footstep - It's really creepy! A fine action-RPG.
    • Deus Ex. Deus Ex is fairly similar in play style to SS2 - and not by accident. An incredibly detailed and engrossing action-RPG, DX sees you fighting terrorists, governments, the illuminati, and everyone in between - armed often only with an electric cattle prod. Perhaps more interesting than multiple endings (which it has), DX focused hard on different middles - you could play through the game in your own style. Sneaking, hacking, blasting, it was all there. Personally, I'm big fan of reprogramming enemy turrets.


    Part 2 to follow...

  2. #2
    Vive le pants! directhex's Avatar
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    Sega Megadrive - The first real console war
    Actually, I always preferred the SNES. Even Sonic got annoying very quickly. Perhaps elephant-based platformer "Rolo to the Rescue" deserves a mention.

    Nintendo 64 - more bits than the competition! Woo!
    The N64 gets an unfair level of criticism from people who mostly don't know what they're talking about - it added analog control, force feedback, and simple 4-way multiplayer to the arena. It was also host to some of the best games of the ninties - despite utter crap like Superman 64 finding a home there. The N64 pad is also a work of art, despite the jokes.
    • Goldeneye. Rare worked their little socks off on this film franchise game - and produced a masterpiee. GE fairly accurately (for a game) allowed you to be part of the movie, where knowledge of the film could directly help you to navigate your way around some of the maps. It was also cleverly paced and designed, to allow for a feel of control in a console FPS that yas yet to be properly followed up on - it wasn't slow to play, it was just... suave rather than rushed. The multiplayer was also a staple of mid-ninties gatherings.
    • Super Mario 64. Moving a popular franchise to 3D isn't easy. There is a lot of scope to make a complete mess - fortunately, Mario 64 was brilliantly executed. The camera is still the best-behaved camera in a 3D platformer, the levels varied and challenging - vital fodder for any real gamer.
    • The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The eighth game in the franchise (yes, I include the CD-i games) made the jump to 3D, with some huge areas to explore - and puzzles which properly branched out into the third dimension. The little touches, side quests, and rich cast of characters made this a classic by any measure.
    • Super Smash Bros.. A beat-'em-up where you get to punch Pikachu in the face? Yes please! SSB is an utterly manic game for four players - worth not only every penny of the £50 cart, but of the cost of importing Super Nintendo All-Star Dairanto Smash Bros from Japan. Also greatly improved with a few beers.


    Sega Dreamcast - the world's favourite flop
    R.I.P. Dreamcast. The Dreamcast had everything going for it - brilliant games, online multiplayer, offline 4-player, decent graphics, and a low price tag - yet somehow, it all went wrong, thanks in equal measure to Sony's back-handed deals with retailers, and EA not publishing any FIFA games for it.
    • Jet Set Radio. Visually a treat, and gameplaywise, a unique concept - the graffiti game. An absolute joy to play, you grind about, evading the authorities, making your mark on the town (and rivals) with the handily availble paint cans. The XBox sequel is a little more accessible, if less skilled.
    • Rez. Buy. This. Game. Rez is the finest, trippiest, prettiest, and definitely best-sounding scrolling shooter *EVER*. You have NO idea what you're missing if you've never sat down to play this game with the bass turned up to eleven.
    • Shenmue. Shenmue is a very hard game to understand - think of it as a 1980s kung fu film, with the humdrum day-to-day activities thrown in. Want to waste all your money on collectible toys and bad J-Pop? Go ahead! Train up to be a kung-fu master ASAP? Go on then. Shenmue was an original concept, with an engaging storyline - it's a shame it never sold well enough for the third (and final) game, with the actual conclusion to the story, to be made.


    Playstation 2 - 2 is bigger than 1!
    I hate the PS2 for what it did to the dreamcast, but there's one title found there I couldn't do without
    • Grand Theft Auto: Vice City. What can I say? The city itself is a masterwork, the sory exciting, the side quests interesting, and the overall desire to explore overwhelming. Rockstar might not be masters of engine design, but they know how to make a damn fine game with Renderware.


    XBox - livin' it large
    You're kidding, right? Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball? Halo? Pffft...

    PC - what's emm386?
    By the time XP was released, PC games were actually being played by normal people - not just those with the patience to fight with them. Of course, that meant an increase in bad yet profitable games...
    • Darwinia. This quirky RTS is a joy to behold and a joy to play - how Introversion managed to instill real personality into 2D squares is incredible - and you can't help but feel guilty whenever anything bad happens to them. This indie-lable title may have slipped past many people, so be sure to give it a spin.


    Nintendo Gamecube - with the incredible power of purple
    The current generation has been a bit of a failure, really - graphical updates to old games, but not much more than that.
    • Resident Evil 4. Oh my. The sixth proper RE game is undoubtedly the best - every old annoyance with the way RE plays has been fixed, and Capcom managed to do the impossible, and set a scary game largely in the daytime, with a bare minimum of monsters jumping through windows. Infact, the scariest moments are when you're in a wide open space, with a pouring thunderstorm, and you can barely see the villager standing on the roof throwing axes at your head as you try deparately to fight off the attackers coming from all angles. Get this now.


    Voila. Any I've missed? ANy disagreements? Post your own picks!

  3. #3
    mutantbass head Lee H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by directhex
    Rez. Buy. This. Game. Rez is the finest, trippiest, prettiest, and definitely best-sounding scrolling shooter *EVER*. You have NO idea what you're missing if you've never sat down to play this game with the bass turned up to eleven.


    REZ is awesome, no sorry Awesome is not a word that can describe this game its that GOOD. I've sat there for many hours boogying to the trance-style sounds and beats that YOU make which get better and better the more you shoot & hit.

    I want this on PC, I wanted it Yesterday and I want it in 5.1 surround.

    Please ... somebody grant my wishes

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    I love fonts Yohji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee @ SCAN


    REZ is awesome, no sorry Awesome is not a word that can describe this game its that GOOD. I've sat there for many hours boogying to the trance-style sounds and beats that YOU make which get better and better the more you shoot & hit.

    I want this on PC, I wanted it Yesterday and I want it in 5.1 surround.

    Please ... somebody grant my wishes
    Is Rez the one where you sort of fly around in a world made up of lines, and went through crazy tunnels? From the same people that made Vib Ribbon?

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    Vive le pants! directhex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee @ SCAN


    REZ is awesome, no sorry Awesome is not a word that can describe this game its that GOOD. I've sat there for many hours boogying to the trance-style sounds and beats that YOU make which get better and better the more you shoot & hit.

    I want this on PC, I wanted it Yesterday and I want it in 5.1 surround.

    Please ... somebody grant my wishes
    http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-8l-70-6ul.html or http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=IDCT-1001 - best you're gonna get. t'is a good soundtrack actually \o/

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    Vive le pants! directhex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohji
    Is Rez the one where you sort of fly around in a world made up of lines, and went through crazy tunnels? From the same people that made Vib Ribbon?
    they look the same, but Vib Ribbon's by NaNaOn-Sha - their other games are Parappa the Rapper and Um-Jammer Lammy.

    Rez is by Sega's United Game Artists (who were merged into Sonic Team a few years back)

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    (my posts will not be as detailed as your sir )

    okies dont flame me if i get games/consoles wrong! im only young and i dont have a good memery but I will try and match them up as good as possible

    My 1st - amiga

    Trolls! (yea i think i was about 8 or 9 years old!) class game for my age and I still rememeber most of the game to this date! you always know a good game when you can remember it 10 years from the time you played it

    Creatures - another classic to myself small fury thing goin around trying to save his small fury friend but it was very hard (at the time) and a challenge was always something i was up for!

    JAMES POND!!! (dont hold me to the name, thats all i remember it by but i cant remember if thats the right name for it) very fun game to play also still remember alot of the levels and how to do them after 10 years of not playing it!

    Next would be Sage ooh the love i had for this console! Again another one that I had many many moons back but remember and love every minute or playing!

    Zool.. what can I say about this game it was THE coolest game of the time for me! He was cool lookin little ant guy that kicked some ass and his little spaceship ROCKED!

    Another World.. OMG the hardest game I can remember playing for Sage (for myself again being young and most likely a tard! ) good game in general still remember swingin from that box thats handin in the air now

    Sonic (all of them) always a challenge no matter how many times you played this loved the game play and the whole story line (again.. remember i was young )

    MJ's Moonwalker OMG what a class game! i loved and well over played that game pure cool factor as Mr MJ wasnt known for all the things hes done wrong! love it!

    Okies PC time, Win95 styl&#233;&#233;!

    Diablo, Challenge and a half good story hard bosses good gfx (for the time IMO neway) also when you play the game to much, try takin diablo out with a short bow... its hard but a real laugh and takes a LONG TIME!!

    Doom, run around blowin monsters up for countless hours as a kid.. you can not get anything more entertaining then that! sit me in front of that I id still play for hours on end Also did sneaky ones in school linkin over the network in IT lessons man i got in trouble for that a few times!

    My memory seems to fail me on other games I played around that time.

    I kind missed a few things out after that soooo next would be.

    Playstation

    FF7... the win... the daddy of all games in my eyes, I cant play the game 1 minute without gettin hooked in to the story line like some kind of virtual crack! I have started.. and completed the game more times then I can count on my hands and spend a good 1/3 of my life playing it without a double! ROCKS and no game will compare....... EVER! and i dont even know how I can express how much this game means to me!

    Wipeout.. purely for the fact that I use to LOVE playin it with ma mates, im not normally in to racin games but this one is different, very fast.. blow other cars up and a hell of a laugh when drunk defo gets my one of my votes here

    C & C Red alert, again mostly for the link up gates which were class and could go on from 1 hour anything up to 10 hours from the games we played with my mates. Also had a very good campaign mode

    Apart from that now ive only got my PC which i play now

    So.. PC - WinXP

    WoW, Still playing this now and been playing it for 10 months aswell, This (like FF7) is virtual crack to myself, I need this to live over all I love the game lay out, storys behind the game, graphics are nice (for cartoony gfx) and over all an amazing game IMO

    Everquest, 2 years of playing brought me a 65 chanter... For its time (quite a few years ago) it was real good graphics for an online game and there was so much behind it making the game play amazing and the detail of the game was again very good the 1st PC game I was addicted to until...

    Everquest 2! DAMN amazing graphics, very detailed game play and you could tell that ALOT of thought went in to the making of this game.. ALOT better then EQ1 from levels 1 - 30.. but i found that after level 30 i got a bit bored... But im going to stick in in here because it was VERY enjoyable from level 1 - 30 i loved every minute of it

    That would end my list again as said at the start my memory may have failed me on certain console/games that went together so dont flame ^ ^

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingie
    You have included 31 images in your message. You are limited to using 20 images so please go back and correct the problem and then continue again.
    pfft ^ ^
    Quote Originally Posted by Noni
    What the hell does "WTH" mean

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    PC

    Deus Ex: still unsurpassed in the fps genre, for its level of depth, for its level design, and most importantly the choices you make within the game: the turning point in the aircraft hanger, when you choose which direction to take, is probably the most memorable gaming experience i have had.
    HL2: as far as entertainment and the feeling of immersion within a video game, and the artistic quality of every design aspect, none come close to HL2, its like being john mclean(die hard) in a beautiful french arthouse movie, astonishing.
    GTA.SA: I didnt expect much from this game, I'm not a big fan of franchises that are milked for all they have got, but this is one superb game, it has everything, dont think i have laughed so much playing a game, and the flying is simply awesome.
    Quake/DOOM(series):what can i say

    SNES

    Bomberman 2: Not only is the single player a tight well designed, bomb fest, the multiplayer is weekends of drunk mayhem with your mates, this is really some of the best game design, simple and effective.
    Starfox: I remember the first time i played this, and being amazed at the graphics....lol, such an enjoyable flying game, with great level design.
    Donkey Kong Country: Who doesnt remember the swinging lights that actually looked like light was coming out of them. Once again Nintendos aesthetic reaches places few can compete with, and great fun to boot.
    MarioKart: if you need me to explain why i chose this then you have never played it drunk with your mates at 2am on a sunday morning

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    I love fonts Yohji's Avatar
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    The NES

    First console, so gotta mention it

    Super Mario Brothers: First game I ever played properly, was great fun at the time, until you realised the shape of the controllers would slowly dig into your hands.

    Playstation 1/PSX

    This was where the serious gaming began.

    Medieval: The two games that came out for the PS1 were just amazing, so much fun! Still one of the best platformers around in my opinion. Nothing beats being able to remove your own head, place it on a hand, and then run around collecting body parts.
    Crash Bandicoot: Everyone should have played this series, again, one of the best platformers ever, sadly let down by its PS2 versions. If you haven’t played the original 3 games, so do it now.
    Final Fantasy VII: A classic. Still my personal favourite of the series, it just has that feeling to it that none of the other Final Fantasies gave, I should imagine the vast majority of people have played at least some of it.
    MGS Groundbreaking, it practically made a new genre, sneak em up!

    Playstation 2

    Amazing when it first came out. Too many to mention really…

    Grand Theft Auto 3: The first GTA game I played, and it was certainly an experience. Still my favourite of the series, as I loved every minute of it.
    Red Faction: First game I got for PS2, and it was great being able to just blow your way through a wall or floor. Although this was another game to be let down by its sequel.
    ICO: Sadly still haven’t bought this beautiful game, fantastic game play, looks and feels like you are playing a film.
    Kingdom Hearts: A combination of Disney and Squaresoft? Wtf?! I never thought it would work, but I ended up loving the game. Nothing like running around killing stuff with a huge key.


    PC

    Age of Empires 2: Wow. This game is amazing, looking back; I can’t see how I played it so much on 56k! Great game play though, and really good for playing with mates.
    C&C Red Alert 2: Just loved it, especially 2 player.
    EverQuest: I didn’t play this for more than a year or so, after I realised how much money it was wasting Enjoyed it though, just began to consume all my time.
    Half Life 2: My personal favourite game at the moment, I just love playing it, never gets boring. I’m sure this game speaks for itself.

    But to be honest, I’ve never really been a fan of the Doom or Quake series, I don’t know why, they just never struck me as being all that good.

    Theres still tonnes of games to mention, but they can't all be said.

    EDIT: Like Guild Wars + CS:S!
    Last edited by Yohji; 04-11-2005 at 03:56 PM.

  10. #10
    Mike Fishcake
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    These aren't necessarily my personal favourites, but they are games which I believe woke people up.

    NES: Mario. It has to be. The first game to really, really bring a proper playable platormer to the masses.

    Megadrive/Genesis: Sonic The Hedgehog. Took platformers a step further. Superfast, fantastic graphics, great concept. Although Sonic 2 was better IMHO, Sonic 1 brought the playability up much further than it had ever been brought before, and gave Sega an immediately recognisable symbol that they are still known for today.

    90s Multiplatform: Bomberman.
    Really, really simple and wonderfully addictive. Surely the epitome of multiplayer games. I bought bomberman for my PS2 a couple of weeks ago, and my 5 year old absolutely loves it.

    Amiga: James Pond 2, Robocod - A cheeky and cute but massive platformer with a perfect difficulty curve. Never, ever, ever got bored of playing that.

    Early 90s PC: Doom. Wolfenstein might have started it off, but Doom is really where 3D shooters started to become exciting to play. Memories of fragfests at college flooding back to me now

    PS1: Micro Machines V3. The best in the series. One of my favourite games of all time. Fantastic in 2 player mode with daft little vehicles and courses to keep you amused.

    PS1: Dance Dance Revolution.
    Don't laugh. I think it's fairly safe to say that it's not a game I consider to be a favourite of mine, but, without wanting to sound sexist, there were loads and loads of girls I knew that went out to buy a PS1 and dance mat because of that game. Loads and loads of sales came from that, and it brought a massive new audience and a whole new concept to the console scene.

    Windows 3.1 and above: Windows Solitaire. The most played computer game in the world. Responsible for billions of pounds/dollars/euros/yen/etc in lost productivity at work.

    Xbox / PS2: Burnout 3. Raised the bar on arcade driving games way, way, way higher than they'd ever been before.

    Amiga: Zool. Hahaha, only joking Ever so slightly successful, but totally fell completely flat on its face as an attempt to bring a recognisable face of the class of Sonic and Mario to the Amiga.
    Last edited by Mike Fishcake; 04-11-2005 at 02:34 PM.

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    I'll do mine later, for now, I'll just say - Mike Fishcake; exactly how is Burnout 3 one of the most important games of all time? I mean, Mario, Sonic, Doom, I can see the case to be made.

    Also, a lot of people seem to just be listing games that they like - this isn't what Hex said, he said most important. Could be a terrible game, as long as it as important in video game history in some way. We have already done the 'best games ever' thing, many times over.

    So, see the following thread for my picks: http://forums.hexus.net/showthread.php?t=9716
    Last edited by Stewart; 04-11-2005 at 03:18 PM.

  12. #12
    Vive le pants! directhex's Avatar
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    perhaps important was the wrong word.

    look at it like this: a relative or friend who's never played a game in thier life comes up to you, and asks to learn. you can't give them *all* the games from the past 20-odd years, you can't honestly expect them to understand your weird fetish for odd games like Wiz & Liz in the Frantic Wabbit Rescue - so what would you pick? mario, or sonic, or both? does it matter? therein lies the challenge - a cross section of games - not neccessarily the best, but varied enough to help give a proper appreciation

    (if anyone wants context for all of this, t'other half's mother was demanding some videogames lately to help relax, and i realised i had too few great ones in a format she could easily play)

  13. #13
    Mike Fishcake
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart
    Mike Fishcake; exactly how is Burnout 3 one of the most important games of all time? I mean, Mario, Sonic, Doom, I can see the case to be made.
    Fair question. In my opinion, it completely changed the way that a lot of people viewed arcade racers. Loads of people I know that never really liked racing games were immediately impressed by Burnout 3's insane twist on the genre. As each new racing game came out, sure there were a few improvements and tweaks on them, but nothing really revolutionary. For me, it kicked a hell of a lot of life into a game genre that wasn't really evolving as fast as a lot of the other types of games. Yes, it is one of my favourite games, one I really enjoy playing, but the reason I included it wasn't just because of that, but because IMHO it made all the designers of other arcade racers sit up and go "ok, how the hell are we going to beat this?"

    Of course it's not as groundbreaking as Mario, Sonic and Doom and probably a lot more of the ones listed above, but I do think it is more than just a fantastic game.

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    I will write something long and more descriptive later (perhaps) but bar none for me is Final Fantasy VIII (yes, 8, not 7). For me, its by far the most gripping, addictive, emotionally content game I have ever played. There are just so many things I could say about this game, and I would personally cry in happyness if they decided to make a continuation movie of FFVIII like they did with VII and advent children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by directhex
    Sega Megadrive - The first real console war
    Actually, I always preferred the SNES. Even Sonic got annoying very quickly. Perhaps elephant-based platformer "Rolo to the Rescue" deserves a mention.
    Man, you dissed Sonic - I shall have to make you play 1 and 2 all the way through. You cannot insult the blue greatness that is the Hedgehog!!!!

    *mutters*

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    True, very true. Anyone who doesn't recognise Sonic 1 & 2 as all time classics is a bit of a chump. Quality from start to finish.

    Not as good as Mario Bros 3, Super Mario World and the like (arguably), but still superb games.

    I wont get invovled in a domestic though, so I'll leave it to you to educate the man.
    Last edited by Stewart; 06-11-2005 at 01:19 PM.

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