Sailors to be released

[kalniel]

I think John Bolton was an absolute disgrace as well, capering on about how the Iranian president has 'won' this and that, and how the world's a more dangerous place.

I really hope Britain's handling of this pushes us closer to the EU. Certainly I felt that the EU supported Britain well, and Britain played it in a more EU way (than the US way for eg.)

[GeorgeTuk]

I'm not so sure we actually "secured" anything. I rather think it's t

......

just wanted a face-saving way of getting out of the mess, without actually having to do the honourable if embarrassing thing of admitting that THEY cocked up by seizing them in the first place.

Saracen, I don't think anyone outside Iran really believes the Iranian line. He is only trying to bolster his support for the nuclear, be it power or a weapon, direction and his collision course with the US.

The UN might not have come out with strong wording (because the UN is rubbish these days and for the last 10 years) only because so many people have an interest there and so stop short. Also any 'evidence' presented at the UN these days is probably treated with disdain after the Iraq anthrax debacle.

And Iran haven't really got anything out of this, since they released these sailors, who according to Iran a few days ago should be put on trial. None of that has happened and as we don't negotiate we can assume they got nothing for their release other than that rather naff press conference where the President looked like on of the diddy men, he is tiny!

I think we got the best result out of this, everyone is happy.

[BEANFro Elite]

Having spoken to ex-soldiers other servicemen from the Iraq conflict; many all come down to the conclusion that as good as our forces are and they are among if not THE best in the world, they're simply underfunded and under-respected by our Governement that so readily sends them into conflicts.

The thing is, supposing Iran had started executing our servicemen and women, Britain is so grossly over-stretched at this time that they would struggle to cobble together a force big enough to wage war with them in response, making us look ever so silly.

Remember we still have troops depoyed in Iraq, Afganistan, Northern Ireland, Ethiopia (UN), Georgia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

Also note, there have been major financial cuts in the Royal Navy and the Airforce, incredible seeing as we're still in two high-profile conflicts namely in Iraq and Afganistan where our forces are stretched so thinly.

[badass]

I'm not so sure we actually "secured" anything. I rather think it's the opposite.

We'll probably never really know the full truth of this situation - i.e. whose waters were the crews actually in, and if (as seems most likely) it was Iraqi waters, whether their seizure was a deliberate act to see what kind of response was provoked, or whether it was just a cockup by over-enthusiastic Iran Revolutionary Guard, flexing their muscles.

But either way, it's looking like it is largely a coup for Iran. They've "claimed" our people were in their waters, they've paraded them on worldwide TV making those nauseating statements, they've acted the hard man and shown off to the Western-hating sections of the world, they've had the world's media hanging on their every statement and drooling over the suspense, and perhaps most telling of all, they've seen not only a marked lack of unity in the UN but they've seen a very clear lack of any actual action from other EU countries.

Bear in mind, these sailors/marines weren't just British military, they were doing what they were doing under UN mandate on a UN resolution. And what was the response of the UN? A very mealy-mouthed watered down statement that didn't even amount to a resounding condemnation. If that doesn't show the UN up for the toothless wonder it is, nothing will.

Iran has scored a strategic result in just about every aspect of the farce. And they had exactly one problem ..... what to do with 15 sailors and marines. I personally suspect that they thought they could twist the sort of humbling apology out of Blair that they got last time, and were surprised when their rhetoric didn't provoke that kind of response, but instead got an angry response and an immediate move to escalate (for what it proved to be worth).

That left Iran not being able to hand the hostages back without losing face in the process. So they bleat on about trials, for a while, having already changed their mind about where the kidnaps took place, and then light on a wonderful wheeze, that in a "magnanimous" gesture from "the world of Islam", they'll give the British people an Easter present and concede to return the people they kidnapped. And what's more, they get to do it without actually having to face the idea that an independent international tribunal might investigate because, of course, if it had it may have concluded that the hostages were actually seized from Iraqi waters and that far from this being a magnanimous gesture from a benevolent Islamic revolutionary state, it's actually a bunch of kidnappers returning their illegally seized victims and having the balls to try to pretend that that makes them the good guys. And they get to do it without the apology they would have had to make had that tribunal concluded they'd entered Iraqi waters.

Now, of course, they've a perfect excuse for not cooperating with any such tribunal, and the furore and media attention will die down and move on to the next big story, whatever it is.

Nah, we didn't "manage to secure the release" of anybody, IMHO. Iran just jumped at the excuse to use Easter as an opportunity to get rid of the embarrassment of actually having still got the sailors/marines in captivity. They'd got what they wanted out of this, and the last thing they wanted was for this to go on any longer. They just wanted a face-saving way of getting out of the mess, without actually having to do the honourable if embarrassing thing of admitting that THEY cocked up by seizing them in the first place.

For gods sake man enough of the incredibly long posts!

[Saracen]

For gods sake man enough of the incredibly long posts!

You don't like 'em, don't read 'em. I don't tell you how to post, and would appreciate the same courtesy.

[JPreston]

.... they seem to have been treated a LOT better than a lot of our prisoners of war/terror (thinking mostly about american prisons out side of america...)

Indeed. Now they are safely home etc, does anyone else reckon they have been a bit...well...shandy about the whole thing? Obviously it was correct to surrender rather than precipitate an international war, but once the media circus was upon them should they not have conducted themselves with a bit more dignity and stiff upper lip, kept it to name rank and number instead of willingly reading out whatever was put in front of them? They were state prisoners rather than prisoners of war and once they understood they were captured for the publicity, should they not have been a bit more Steve McQueen about it, like the captured (and battered) televised US pilots in gulf war I? The last lot of iranian hostages were there for donkeys years until Reagan paid the ransom, are we really that much softer now?

And when they were shaking Ahmedinejad's hand - how awesome would it have been if one had sucker-punched the midget, or better still pulled his hand up to thumb his nose right in front of all the cameras? Instant Greatest Living Englishman status right there....

[Agent]

Obviously it was correct to surrender rather than precipitate an international war, but once the media circus was upon them should they not have conducted themselves with a bit more dignity and stiff upper lip, kept it to name rank and number instead of willingly reading out whatever was put in front of them?

Perhaps, but I see 3 reasons for this.

1) They were in the wrong waters and were telling the truth

2) They were threatened - We really have no idea what went on behind the camera

3) They willingly said what they were asked to, thinking it might help them out of there. Iran might have said "read this and we'll let you go, unharmed"

What went on behind the scene's we really dont know. We may never know, only time will tell. I am just happy they are back safe and it was nothing more than Iran "biggin it up" for the media massive. Don't get me wrong, thats bad enough, but id rather have the last 13 days or so play out again as they have, as opposed to another war.

[TiG]

So if i'm holding a gun to your head and tell you that unless you sign it or say what i want you to, i'm going to kill you?. So maybe your a hard man, maybe you would rather be killed. I'll kill the girl instead

Honestly you just do what you are asked and let the world decide whether its the truth or not.

For gods sake man enough of the incredibly long posts!

Badass, consider Saracen's posts the best quality well constructed posts about, if you can truely put together a decent argument. Breakdown what he says you can see points of contention, be warned tho he is very articulate and will bake your brain. It is worthwhile if you feel you have a point and you make it appropriately with decent and well informed arguements he will respect your point, like he respects others.

Its like Rave and Nichomach, wouldn't have the forum without them, but damn sometimes getting into discussions with articulate people really makes you ensure you think through your arguments properly to ensure you don't leave yourself open for come back

TiG

[JPreston]

No I understand they will have been threatened to force 'confessions' (I bet they were still treated better than the civilians in gitmo who don't even have the benefit of military training to fall back on, let alone the prospect of release) though I seriously doubt that there was any 24-style guns held to temples or the like - I'm just questioning whether they are really the heroes the media is making them out to be, or have they done their country a disservice?

They took the queen's shilling but by capitulating so fully and willingly, do they make UK forces look like a force to be reckonned with? Should they really have aided Iran's interests to that extent, at the expense of the UK's? Has their televised weakness actually encouraged insurgents in Iraq, where UK troops are actually dying instead of being paraded on TV and sent home after a week or so? Will Italians start making jokes about British tanks being the ones with one forward gear and six reverse gears now...?

[excalibur2]

Another possible way of looking at it is that they were pissed off with the UK government and military and decided to show it. The first question I would ask when arriving back home is..........."where was our protection".

And I reckon I could even brainwash our guys, on how Blair is letting our armed forces down.

[htid]

Anyone else watching this news conference?

They said they were 100% in Iraqi waters, but even if they were in Iranian waters, would they admit it on UK tv? Sounds like they were forced to confess on Iranian TV and it sounds like the Iranians edited the footage (as I assume most people thought) so I wonder what happens now...