Crap NHS service *rants*

[Brucelles]

In Belgium I paid 37 Euros (25 quid) for a check-up, but I got 85% back so it cost me 3.75 pounds.

I called the dentist on a Thursday and got in on Monday. She was efficient, open and good. Recommended that I keep an eye on my crowns (I smashed my front teeth out in a bike crash years ago) and sent me away telling me she will cal me againin 6 months.

That's how it used to be in Britain, near enough. Someone has messed up pretty badly.

[Sinizter]

Someone has messed up pretty badly.

Hmm .. I wonder who. The government claims the NHS is better than ever.

[Bazzlad]

I think private healthcare is the way forward. Ok, it can be expensive (health insurance or PAYG) but my treatment by BUPA was exceptional.

Dave Frost on this forums is a technical Engineer.
He did every bupa site in the Country.

He swears he'd never go to one. EVER.

Enough said.

[Sinizter]

Dave Frost on this forums is a technical Engineer.
He did every bupa site in the Country.

He swears he'd never go to one. EVER.

Enough said.

And the relevance of an opinion on medical care from a technical engineer who did not receive medical care from BUPA is ?

It would be different if he did receive care from them.

[Bazzlad]

Kinda of like the woman in my office who had a operation there and was told to leave her bed 4 hours after it? And had to call her husband in the middle of the night to pick her up.

Like that?

And my friend's opinion is VERY valid, I would not want to be treated in a DIRTY run down hospital. Would you?

[arbitor]

4 hours ... thats odd lol

I was in bed for about 4 hours after the hernia repair, stood up and its was excruciating

[Sinizter]

Kinda of like the woman in my office who had a operation there and was told to leave her bed 4 hours after it? And had to call her husband in the middle of the night to pick her up.

Like that?

And my friend's opinion is VERY valid, I would not want to be treated in a DIRTY run down hospital. Would you?

No I wouldnt. But then NHS hospitals are not prime examples of where I would be treated. I would rather not be hospitalised than go into any of the hospitals I have seen.

Im sorry, I did not mean to sound insulting. Yes your friends opinions are valid to you. But is it really relevant to the people at large when he hasnt had care there ? He went there to set up their computers or whatever. So it looked run down, but find me a NHS hospital that does not.

If your opinion was based on someone you knew well who had care there, then it would be different.

Obviously before you commit to have care at a place you want to check it out for yourself. And listen to people who have been there before.

And anyway there would be better hospitals if the NHS didnt exist. Fair market competition would ensure that ... But having to compete against a free service is not fair market effect at work. If there is bad healthcare in this country, its entirely due to the NHS. But then it does some good too. Look at America where a significant proportion of people do not have access to any medical/dental care. Thats the other side of the coin. You can only do one or the other and both of them have problems.

[RedPutty]

Hmm .. I wonder who. The government claims the NHS is better than ever.

Chocolate rations are up again!

[ponolops]

Yes, the NHS is crap and it stinks! But.............................
if you live in America, you have to have health insurance, which in some states is 40% of your earnings. Plus, if you use your doctor too much, your insurance company drops you and blacklists you, so no-one else will take you on.

So, if you are in pain, you go to the hospital. They will see you twice, then refuse treatment altogether.

I have lots of friends in the USA with chronic health conditions and some have to go without drugs as they have 'used up' their insurance and hospital visits.

Sometimes their pain is so great they can't walk or work but no insurance, no drugs, period!

With that in mind, give me the NHS any day!

[Whalefish]

Those who go private will have their operations in a BUPA hospital. If things go wrong and they need emergency intensive care they are whipped right into an NHS hospital though.

[Saracen]

NHS dentistry is a misnomer, because it neither free at the point of delivery or available to all.

If you are lucky enough to have an dentist anywhere you who is even accepting NHS patients - and I'm not, because round here dentists are all money-grabbing bar-stewards - then you pay on average around 80% of the private cost anyway IIRC.

I had a fantastic NHS dentist where I used to live, absolutely faultless service. Since moving house I've had to pay £100+ a go for a bloody check-up, to wait much longer to be given an appointment and still be kept in the waiting room for ages anyway so that some toff with two surnames and no chin can fuel the Cayenne he keeps parked outside his listed building surgery. Greeeeeat.

Dentistry is a racket, they should not be allowed to take private patients at the expense of NHS work. Next thing we'll have firemen being allowed to work privately and charging ££££s before they turn on the hoses, while of course leaving you the right to put your name down for a 'free' fire engine...except there won't actually be any, because they've all gone private....

I sympathise ... but the thing is, dentists (or rather, the vast majority of dentists) aren't employed by the NHS. They're private businesses. That means they have to either buy or rent premises (and pay the costs of so doing), finance their equipment, do their own recruitment, pay for staff, pay their own lab bills, pay for materials, and so forth .... or work for someone who does do the above.

Then, they can, if they wish, agree a contract with the NHS whereby they'll take NHS patients, but the terms on which they do so are subject to contract, and the NHS can't insist on them not taking private patients, unless they can get them to sign a contract that stipulates that, and that'll affect the contract rates significantly.

Part of the problem is that many dentists provide for a mix of patients, which allows them to charge more where the market will allow it, and to offer treatments that the NHS simply won't pay for, to private patients. Without that private work, many dentists simply would not be able to afford to equip their practices the way they do. For instance, the government wanted a fixed £80,000 salary for dentists, which sounds a lot until you consider that my dentist invested £230,000 in equipment last year. Sure, it'll last a good few years, but you aren't going to finance that out of a fixed £80,000 salary, and you aren't going to get many people taking the associated risks, either.

So, private patients provide the cream, and it's the cream that allows, and provides the incentive, to invest in such assets, which NHS patients then also get the benefit of.

If the Government want a dental service where they can call the shots, dictate who the dentists see and how much they charge, then they can always spend the money to provide the infrastructure, buy the premises, provide the equipment and pay staff a salary. But until then, if a dentist does well and can afford a Cayenne, then why not. After all, do you moan about whatever car the directors of the company you buy your car from, or the owner of the travel agency where you book your holiday has? Sure, dentists don't do badly, but they are highly skilled and highly qualified individuals. GP's don't do badly, either. And if they choose to run a Porsche, that's their choice, just like it is for any other successful business person.

My dentist has fought against going entirely private for years, because he says it's not what he wanted to do when he became a dentist. He's been saying that for >10 years, to my personal knowledge, because I've discussed it with him many times over that period. But the latest NHS contract was finally too much for him and he's now gone entirely private. And it wasn't about money. The issues for him were that he was being increasingly constrained into using sub-optimal treatment because the NHS was not prepared to pay for some treatments, and he hated having to explain to patients that option A) was far better, if they're prepared to pay for it, but only option B) is available on the NHS. He always felt that people would think he was just after the money, which wasn't the point at all. He can offer a better treatment, but not on the NHS, because they won't pay for it.

He has finally gone private only, because he's fed up with not being able to offer patients the treatment he feels is best, and being pressured by NHS into allocating a fixed time per patient to make his quotas, rather than taking the time a patient's problems dictate.

Now, of course, he can offer whatever alternatives he wishes, with the associated costs, and the patient can decide what's best, not some Whitehall bureaucrat.

[Saracen]

No, NHS dentistry is not free. Maybe students don't have to pay, but real people do.

The problem is most people would love to see an NHS dentist, but cannot because there is no availability. Why not? Because the dentists are all too busy charging for private work. Nice work if you can get it.

You're dead right about the first point. There are categories of people that get free NHS dental care (like students), or get it free from NHS dental units in hospitals, but for the majority of the adult population, there's been a total period of about 9 months, back in the late 40's, when dental care was free - this was immediately after the introduction of the NHS. But after that 9 months, the government realised the size of the problem, and since then, there has always been a fee structure of one form or another. It has, however, become increasingly expensive with a smaller and smaller portion of the cost paid for by the state, over the years. partly, at least, that's because dental techniques (like other medical techniques) have become ever more sophisticated, ever more effective but considerably more expensive.

Personally, despite the cost, I'm not keen to go back to the point where dental care consisted of either filling it or whipping it out.


But on the second point, we have different perspectives. Sure, dentists charge. Every business does. How else can they pay for the facilities they provide, let alone earn a living?

But while they certainly aren't badly rewarded (and can be very well rewarded indeed), that certainly isn't the only motivation for taking private work. It just isn't that simple.