9-11 Conspiracies....

[Spud1]

Well I don't really believe in any of the theories so to speak - but I do think that a proportion of what happened has been covered up - and as far as i'm concerned anyone that sits here and believes *everything* the government(s) tell us about what happened to be 100% true is just as much of a naive idiot as those who believe in all the conspiricy theories.

When the documents eventually get de-classified in 50 odd years or so we *might* get a better picture, but for now we're stuck with what we're told, and no-one can be certain that its 100% correct information.

[Bazzlad]

Best quote of all time:

First, picture the demolitions teams wiring up the World Trade Center towers with explosives prior to the attack. Obviously you couldn't do it during business hours, since it'd be kind of hard to explain to the 100,000 people who worked at or visited the WTC towers on any given day why you had a huge chunk of wall torn out and were wiring up a bomb on the steel beams there.

I mean, keep in mind, I don't know how big of a job that would be (no one has ever demolished a building that size before) but a building just half the size of one WTC tower took 4,000 separate charges to bring down. Four thousand.

That job took seven months of prep work... and they had the run of an abandoned building, without having to hide their work from 100,000 people every day. Our demolition crew, on the other hand, can work only at night and has to spend the last bit of every shift carefully repairing the wall and hiding any evidence of charges or detonators as not to be discovered during the day.

Huge teams of demolitions experts, who had no problem wiring a building full of innocent New Yorkers to explode, hired in secret, worked every night for what had to be a year (and that's only if they had a big enough crew) placing maybe 10,000 separate charges in each tower and another few thousand in WTC 7 (the smaller WTC tower that also collapsed, later in the day on 9/11).

And nobody notices.

That's right. That's the theory they're putting out there. 100,000 DVD's they've sold with this.

Truckloads of bombs, dozens of mysterious workers, going in and out of the building, night after night. Security at the building doesn't catch them, Port Authority Police don't catch them, random eyewitnesses who stumble across the operation and call the cops don't catch them, maintenance workers who stumble across wet paint and repaired walls and bits of strange wire don't catch them, security cameras don't catch them.

The bomb-sniffing dogs who were brought in from time to time (remember, these buildings were bombed by terrorists in 1993) who are trained to find even one bomb, fail to notice the 10,000 bombs lining their building.

[redlight]

They were using stealth technology developed at Area 51 stolen from the crashed UFO that has been hidden there since the fifties.

[Bazzlad]

That they found whilst in the desert pretending to be on the moon?

[GeorgeTuk]

As said there are things we will never know, and theres a few to many things that happen that are a little to calculated.

I loved the way the iron gurders that are the length of the building, all broke and were the perfect size to fit on a truck, all of them... thats not right...

Ooooh how yawnful! Iron girders that are around 40 years old in a damp area of Washington are not strong. They were cut for removal. The Pentagon was never directly designed to resist any attack, its the administration HQ of the US Department of Defense and employs both civilians and state officials.

A plane hit it. It blew up, fortunatley not in the way it would in a hollywood film however this means people have to question whether it really happened.

[schmunk]

The Pentagon was never directly designed to resist any attack,

Well, it is, but the attack-proof bit is underground.

[Tom Scott]

Bazzlad how do you explain WTC7 being "pulled" that day then? It was fairly blatant that was a controlled explosion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM

And the fact the BBC reported it had collpased 20 minutes before it actually had....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwO...ceid=bbcinonit

And Larry Silverstein saying they "pulled" it...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...51950774479027

[pollaxe]

And the fact the BBC reported it had collpased 20 minutes before it actually had....

(I'm not Bazzlad) Simple human error? A confused situation and someone thinks something's happened before it has? Not surprising given the circumstances, surely?

FWIW I think the more convoluted the conspiracies become then the less they hold water simply because the more people there are involved then the more likely it is that it would either be exposed or fail. Personally, I don't believe there's a government in the world competent enough to carry off something like this - nor lizard people nor Illuminati etc. etc. That's not to say I don't believe governments are capable of doing things that are morally on a par (they are and it's well documented) I'm talking more about co-ordination and logistics. The terrorists who pulled this off managed an incredibly effective and comparatively cheap method of attack - if you look at it free of morals it was a superb piece of terrorism. Perhaps people don't like to think some of these people are sophisticated enough to pull something like this off? Like the Kennedy assassination, they want to see a bigger picture and find it hard to believe one guy with a rifle could do something like this?

My father's an engineer and has watched the footage of the WTC and surrounding area and says he doesn't see anything that resembles a controlled explosion anywhere in the footage. The twin towers were (IIRC) designed to collapse downwards simply because if they fell laterally they'd have taken out huge portions of Manhattan.

The likeliest conspiracy I can see is that some people in power may've had an idea something was in the offing but I'm far from convinced 9/11 was pre-planned and orchestrated by something like the One World Government (etc.)

Surely the onus is on the conspiracy theorists to provide the evidence? I know there are a lot of academics who question the events (and doubtless the closer you delve then you will expose some murky goings on) but buildings wired with explosives, tesla coils and UFOs hovering nearby just don't convince me, I'm afraid.

JMHO, of course.

[MadduckUK]

its pretty obvious that the US government is behind a number of the more outlandish conspiracy theories, in an effort to stop the more reasonable ones being talked about.

rather than trying to silence people there muddying the water with things that will be ridiculed.

[Bazzlad]

Bazzlad how do you explain WTC7 being "pulled" that day then? It was fairly blatant that was a controlled explosion.

Do you know what's stranger than that?
That not ONE demolition expert or scientist has offered evidence to help support these claims.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors--along with the building's unusual construction--were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.

Revisionists say sharp spikes (graph 1, above) mean bombs toppled the WTC. Scientists disprove the claim with the more detailed graph 2 (below).



Seismograph readings by Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University/Won-Young Kim (senior research scientist)/Arthur Lerner-Lam (associate director)/Mary Tobin (senior science writer)


And as for the BBC thing - way to go Bush, plan a fake terrorist attack, and let the BBC know what's going on so they can accidentally slip up on TV.

Come on - bear in mind in Firefighting, PULL means pulling out men - word getting back that the building has been pulled is more likely to be someone over hearing things like this:

I issued the orders to pull back the firefighters and define the collapse zone. It was a critical decision; we could not lose any more firefighters. It took a lot of time to pull everyone out, given the emotionalism of the day, communications difficulties, and the collapse terrain." FDNY Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro, "Report from the Chief of Department," Fire Engineering, 9/2002)

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/%22p...tersfromdanger

[GeorgeTuk]

Bazzlad how do you explain WTC7 being "pulled" that day then? It was fairly blatant that was a controlled explosion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM

And the fact the BBC reported it had collpased 20 minutes before it actually had....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwO...ceid=bbcinonit

And Larry Silverstein saying they "pulled" it...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...51950774479027

Oh god the BBC are involved too another 5,000 people to keep quiet. They are going to be busy for years!

[arbitor]

I find it interesting listing to the the theories..

[Tom Scott]

http://wtc7.net/cache/nyt_engineersbaffled.html

Seems engineers were baffled by it I'm afraid - especially the bits of steel that appeared to be evapourated, jet fuel can't burn hot enough to do that, but thermite can. Is it not a bit odd that all of the evidence from the WTC was conveniently sold by Rudy Giuliani before it was properly documented? This was arguably the worlds biggest crime scene... surely you'd want everything documented to the nth degree?

Oh and the extent of the fires in WTC7 can't be shown as the fire system was conveniently place on TEST for 8 hours at 6:47:03 a.m. on September 11, 2001, which means results are NOT LOGGED.

You've got to remember no steel skyscraper had ever collapsed because of fire prior to this, none, not a single one, not even ones that had burnt for days and day, then three ecollapse in one day.

"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

So why use the term "pull it" to describe the moment World Trade Centre 7 collapsed? Not pull out or withdraw... Why was Larry Silverstein contacted about it if it wasn't controlled, you wouldn't call someone to say "we want to pull the building" when you have no control over when its going to collapse. He doesn't have any say in what the firefighters do either.

Other points....

How come most of the hijackers they've named have been found alive and well? Who were the hijackers?

How come none of the security footage of the Pentagon attack was released, apart from 4 frames of CCTV directly from the pentagons cameras. They confiscated all of the security tapes from all of the surrounding buildings within minutes - so the footage exists, again if you've got nothing to hide, don't hide it.

Is it not a coincidence that the pilot that was supposedly flying the plane (before it got "hijacked") that hit the Pentagon was ex-US Air force pilot, who was involved in drills involving a hijacked plane attacking the Pentagon?

The number of coincidences involved is just well... too many.

Military drills involving hijacked planes had been running for a while, this caused confusion as to whether this was the real thing or a drill.
A US military exercise had moved most of the US air force to the other side of the country on the morning of Sept. 11
Almost every famous person that worked in the WTC was either late or out of the office that day.
Odigo has logged instant messages to people inside the towers warning them 2 hours before the attacks.
The Pentagon ont he morning of Sept. 11 was running a MASCAL (mass casualty) exercise to simulate the "unlikely" event that a plane crashed into the Pentagon.
Training exercises were being run on "Airport Security" and "test the security at the base in case of a terrorist attack" were being run at the 2 closest military bases to the Pentagon.

The five dancing isrealis arrested because they were seen filming the attacks and celebrating... what ever happened to them? The fact is that they worked for Urban Moving Systems - an Isreali company, directed by Dominick Suter who dropped the business, and fled for Isreal. Suter was later placed on the same FBI suspect list as 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta and other hijackers and suspected al-Qaeda sympathizers, suggesting that U.S. authorities felt Suter may have known something about the attacks. How many of you had even heard of these Isrealis? What happened to them?
What happened with the bomb that was on the George Washington Bridge?

Why would George Bush sit there in front of a class of children reading a book for about 10 minutes when he had been told "the nation is under attack" unless he already knew what was happening.

Oh and before people say why would they do it? Noone would do anything like this....
Well the US (CIA) planned to stage terror attacks on themselves to blame Cuba so they could invade, they didn't execute those plans.
Remember a LOT of people (generally within the bush administration as well) have made a LOT (and I mean a LOT) of money out of this.

You can think I'm crackers if you want, I really don't care. I'm not saying the BBC were involved, I was saying that the BBC obviously had information that the building had collapsed, which was probably when the decision to "pull it" was made. I've done a lot of research on this and theres too many questions not enough answers, and nowhere near enough clarity from the US government on questions asked.

[Bazzlad]

Seems engineers were baffled by it I'm afraid - especially the bits of steel that appeared to be evapourated, jet fuel can't burn hot enough to do that, but thermite can. Is it not a bit odd that all of the evidence from the WTC was conveniently sold by Rudy Giuliani before it was properly documented? This was arguably the worlds biggest crime scene... surely you'd want everything documented to the nth degree?

Tom, Tom, Tom, PLEASE do some research on BOTH sides of the argument before coming at me one sided. I watched and read everything I could for the conspiracy theorists, then read the debunking and guess what? Common sense prevails:

Thermite?
The flowing material has not been identified beyond doubt. The prevailing expert opinion is that it was molten aluminum, not steel, mixed with other materials from the affected floor which came into contact with the molten or very hot metal.

Research into the causes of a conspicuous flow of glowing material from the corner of the 81st floor of the South Tower leads to the finding of evidence of a highly flammable UPS system at that location and suggests a possible triggering event for the flow and associated fire. Photographic evidence of floor failures is provided. Molten steel is ruled out as an ingredient of the flow.

http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/200...r-of-wtc2.html

You've got to remember no steel skyscraper had ever collapsed because of fire prior to this, none, not a single one, not even ones that had burnt for days and day, then three ecollapse in one day.

My personal favourite:

How could the WTC towers have collapsed without a controlled demolition since no steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires? Temperatures due to fire don't get hot enough for buildings to collapse.

The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.

The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

So why use the term "pull it" to describe the moment World Trade Centre 7 collapsed? Not pull out or withdraw... Why was Larry Silverstein contacted about it if it wasn't controlled, you wouldn't call someone to say "we want to pull the building" when you have no control over when its going to collapse. He doesn't have any say in what the firefighters do either.

Conspiracy theorists say "Pull" is a term used by demolition experts. This is one of those many half truths conspiracy theorists use to convince the ignorant. "Pull" is used when they "Pull" a building away from another with cables during demolition.



“We’ve got the cables attached in four different locations going up. Now they’re pulling the building to the north. It’s not every day you try to pull down a eight story building with cables.”



Narrator Kevin Spacey: “The use of explosives to demolish World Trade Centers 4, 5 and 6 was rejected for fear workers would risk their lives entering buildings to set the charges.”

Silverstein's Quote:

"I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, you know, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."

-Fact which is undisputed by either side, he was talking to the fire commander

-Fact which is undisputed by either side, both are not in the demolition business

Silverstein's spokesperson, Mr. McQuillan, later clarified:

"In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building."

How come most of the hijackers they've named have been found alive and well? Who were the hijackers?

You REALLY haven't thought this out have you?

If you were constructing a fake terrorist attack because you wanted to attack Afghanistan, or Iraq, then wouldn’t you involve a few Afghans or Iraqis? But no, we’re supposed to believe that they made them inconvenient Saudis, instead.

Worse still, the planners picked live Saudis almost at random, despite the fact that they’d be sure to come forward and spoil the whole thing. Why would anyone do that?

Here's just ONE of them looked at in depth:
http://911myths.com/html/abdulaziz_a...ill_alive.html

Is it not a coincidence that the pilot that was supposedly flying the plane (before it got "hijacked") that hit the Pentagon was ex-US Air force pilot, who was involved in drills involving a hijacked plane attacking the Pentagon?

So it is a plan now and not a cruise missile?
Glad you're over that.

It is doubtful that the best trained fighter pilots could have executed the maneuver that supposedly crashed a 757 into the Pentagon. It required making a tight 320-degree turn while descending seven thousand feet, then leveling out so as to fly low enough over the highway just west of the Pentagon to knock down lamp posts. After crossing the highway the pilot had to take the plane to within inches of the ground so as to crash into the Pentagon at the first-floor level and at such a shallow angle that an engine penetrated three rings of the building, while managing to avoid touching the lawn. And he had to do all of this while flying over 400 mph.

You conspiracy theorists can't even make your own minds up!

Right read this:
http://911myths.com/html/hijacking_drill.html

You can think I'm crackers if you want

Ok. QFT.

Right. Just. Shut. Up.
Go and read research from BOTH sides.
The problem with conspiracy theorists is their points are ALWAYS made from people with just enough knowledge to be dangerous - they understand the basics but not the big picture -

Why hasn'ts any other buildins fallin down then? Lolz!11111

Just like the idiots who say the American Flag shouldn't have had any ripples cause it was on the moon.

Now. I'm going to eat.

[arbitor]

And bazzlad what makes you smarter than them??

Nothing you could be wrong.

I thought the moon landing thing with the flag, why would it have wind blowing through it??

Why did the golf ball they hit come back down so soon?


Tbh id laugh for days if i found out it was done in the desert

[Brucelles]

I thought that the sun forum was pretty reasonable really. It just seemed to be one major loony being mainly ridiculed.

its pretty obvious that the US government is behind a number of the more outlandish conspiracy theories, in an effort to stop the more reasonable ones being talked about.

rather than trying to silence people there muddying the water with things that will be ridiculed.

Of course. Brilliant but simple.

Actually I suspect that this is why GWB was 'elected'. He's so obviously too stupid to think up a conspiracy like this, or even keep it quiet, that no-one will ever suspect that it was the US government, the BBC, Israel, the British Government and that ginger bloke from Simply Red wot dun it.