Bad Phorm

[Mike Fishcake]

I use Zen. They have confirmed they won't be using Phorm. I want to raise peoples' attention to it.

I'm not getting "Daily Mail" on this - it needs to be stopped before it gets any further. The sooner people protest against it, the more likely it is to stop. As soon as companies start discussing it, it becomes a real issue.

Besides - BT confesses lies over secret Phorm experiments | The Register

No point in waiting for more things to develop with it if we can stop it where it is now.

[Lee H]

Yeah but I personally think people are complaining the wrong way about it.

They sign a poxy e-petiton which the government just go " oh another petiton" and bin all the complaints yet keep their email addresses and names and of course address information.

Protests and Marches are needed rather than a lazy "click and signed" as from what I've seen the e-petitons are not worth the servers they run on.

[Mike Fishcake]

Lee - Whilst I'm inclined to agree with you when it comes to the spurious petitions set up on PetitionOnline and so forth, you usually get at least some response if there's a large amount of petitions on the uk government ones, and it at least points the comments in the right direction. Plus you're never going to get even a minute fraction of people from all over the UK converging in one place to march about something like this.

[Salazaar]

I'm not getting "Daily Mail" on this

Sorry, I wasn't aiming that at you so much as Santa's initial post.

Yeah, it's a bad thing but it is making headlines and I'm sure it will be looked at by whoever makes the rules on this kind of thing.

There's no point making it out to be the bringer of the end of days though (again, not aimed at you Mike ), if you don't like it, opt out or change to an ISP that doesn't support it and let the econimics decide.

[Agent]

There's no point getting all 'Daily Mail' about it until it becomes a real issue.

Surely its a 1000x better idea to stop it before it comes a real issue?

[Stringent]

Indeed. Stamp on it before it sprouts.

/me ticks 'use encryption' on utorrent ...

[Salazaar]

Surely its a 1000x better idea to stop it before it comes a real issue?

By doing what?

It either is or is not legal to do this.

If it's illegal it'll be stopped by the government/regulators. If it is legal, moaning about it won't help much - the best way to prevent it would be to vote with your wallets and not use ISPs who use Phorm.

Personally I'm going to be jumping ship from BT just as soon as I can, Be are LLUing my exchange next month I think.

[Agent]

By doing what?

It either is or is not legal to do this.

If it's illegal it'll be stopped by the government/regulators. If it is legal, moaning about it won't help much - the best way to prevent it would be to vote with your wallets and not use ISPs who use Phorm.

Personally I'm going to be jumping ship from BT just as soon as I can, Be are LLUing my exchange next month I think.

So if the law doesn't currently cover it, it shouldn't?
"Moaning" as you put it can do a lot when done by an organised group in a proper way. It can get governments to look at why its not currently illegal (if it isn't), and should it be? If no one brings it to light / cares, they won't look. Its pretty much the same way that all amendments to law are done. Everything needs a starting point.

[Nickg]

It either is or is not legal to do this.

terrible attitude IMO. we are the people. the laws are made to protect US. we can influence future laws. This should be a democracy...

[Salazaar]

So if the law doesn't currently cover it, it shouldn't?
"Moaning" as you put it can do a lot when done by an organised group in a proper way. It can get governments to look at why its not currently illegal (if it isn't), and should it be? If no one brings it to light / cares, they won't look. Its pretty much the same way that all amendments to law are done. Everything needs a starting point.

If you're talking about the general level of monitoring in this country then I agree, but I don't see Phorm as anything more than a minor symptom of a much, much bigger problem. I don't see much point in getting all wound up about Phorm when it's apparently so easy to get around and when time and energy would be much better spent addressing the bigger surveillence problem.

[Mike Fishcake]

Sorry, I wasn't aiming that at you so much as Santa's initial post.

Yeah, it's a bad thing but it is making headlines and I'm sure it will be looked at by whoever makes the rules on this kind of thing.

There's no point making it out to be the bringer of the end of days though (again, not aimed at you Mike ), if you don't like it, opt out or change to an ISP that doesn't support it and let the econimics decide.

WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!

I agree - voting with your wallet is the best thing to do, but the problem is that unless you tell people what's happening, and let them know the implications, they won't be aware of it.

Of course there are still going to be people out there that would send BT pictures of themselves naked if it meant they could save a couple of quid on their broadband bill every month...

[Salazaar]

Of course there are still going to be people out there that would send BT pictures of themselves naked if it meant they could save a couple of quid on their broadband bill every month...

<Thinks...>

So if I send BT naked pics of me I can force them to lower my bill...

[Lucio]

I agree - voting with your wallet is the best thing to do, but the problem is that unless you tell people what's happening, and let them know the implications, they won't be aware of it.

Unfortunately, it's not always possible to "vote with your wallet" and in fact, you need to government and the judiciary to do it's job and protect you against companies wanting to make as much money as possible.

Also, just because it's illegal, or potentially illegal, doesn't stop all company's from doing it anyway. Some rely on the fact no one gives a damn, and others rely on their worker's being motivated enough to keep quiet. You only have to consider the number of health and safety breaches in a typical workplace to realise that this is true.

If you assume this problem is going to go away all by itself, it won't. If you assume "ah well, it won't happen to my ISP", Need I remind you where that kind of mindset leads?

Taken from Martin Niemöller - Wikiquote

"When the Nazis arrested the Communists,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist.
When they locked up the Social Democrats,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat.
When they arrested the trade unionists,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist.
When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest"

[Salazaar]

As I see it, it can be broken down into two seperate problems:

One is with Phorm, BT, Virgin and Tiscalli to do with the specific application of Phorm in these circumstances - this one is best solved by opting out or jumping ship.

The more important issue is with our privacy in general and specifically our digital privacy on emerging technologies. It encompases targeted advertising like Phorm, DRM on music, ISP monitoring of P2P networks and anything else where our private business is monitored automatically just in case we're a bit naughty - this is the issue worth getting worked up about and the one you should be battering down your MP's door to get addressed!

[Mike Fishcake]

Unfortunately, it's not always possible to "vote with your wallet" and in fact, you need to government and the judiciary to do it's job and protect you against companies wanting to make as much money as possible.

I think I mis-phrased that slightly. I'd say that voting with your wallet is one of the many ideas that could be used against this, but it should certainly not be the only one. Denying companies money is a surefire way of making them pay attention, but there does need to be a massive, massive amount of people doing so for them to sit up and pay attention. The companies themselves need to be told that people don't want this.

Like I said before, I'm not with an ISP that is on the list for doing that, but I'm still as sure as dammit making people know.

[sammyc]

how does any opting-out procedure work Salazaar - in that if that's possible with BT &c why are you leaving, regardless? not that bothered about a quid off my bill (and sending naked pics of me would prob. make them charge me more, to cover shock & distress...) but i cba moving anything if i can help it.
(re-reads OP properly...)

The system they propose is "opt-out" not "opt-in" so all your browsing will be monitored unless you "opt-out" everytime you browse by retaining the Phorm cookie permanently on your computer. Even then, your visits to sites can be logged.

is that the gist of it..?