Poor Kids

[usxhe190]

fuddam

Can I ask you about something about christianity and bible interpretations?

Psalm 93:1 says "earth is set firmly in place and cannot be moved"

There was a big issue about this when Galileo disputed the then view of earth (i.e. earth doesn't move. Sun moves - rather than the other way around (as is the case now)).

Obviously we now know earth is round. We also know that people now argue that the bible do say the earth is round (e.g. Isaiah 40:22).

Q is how do we now know what is interpretated by a current christian is the correct interpretation of the bible?

E.g.
topics like
gays (Leviticus 18:22)
marriage "yoke" between a non-christian or christian (Corinthians 6:14)
raised people from the dead (John 11:1-45)
stem cell research (Isaiah 44:2)

[fuddam]

well, if no one can say whether jesus was a, the son of God, b, the same thing AS God, c, neither of the aforementioned

where do you get that from? I CAN say it and do. He is God and yet He is distinct from God. He is both the son of God and is God. The mystery of the trinity is just that. No, not a nonsensical statement - am just admitting that I don't pretend to understand all the details. I know ENOUGH.

nor from reading the passages can they tell you whether Jesus actually delivered a Miracle, or whether he just provided "miracles" in parable form.

again, not true. He raised people from the dead, he healed people. Very clear. No 2 ways about it.

that level of interpretation tells me that the basis of Christianity (i.e Jesus the Son of God, and his Miracles) may/may not have happened. indeed even Christians cite this.

to get to the truth of the matter, one has to read the Bible in a number of ways, a principle one of which is to read a verse within its chapter, within its context, within its book, within its place in the Bible, within history. Problem is that a lot of people pick and mix as they like, excluding whatever they don't feel comfortable with. That's the bogus part. MOST importantly, one needs the help of the Holy Spirit to guide one, since it is not intended to be a purely human endeavour. Anyway, I assume this is falling on deaf ears, but c'est la vie.

the idea of the bible is that it provides, FACTUAL accounts for its followers to internalise is false, it was written, and rewritten by many non first-hand account holders. It was written without impunity. There was an editor, and a cut. So even the stories that are placed within the bible must be viewed with an air of sceptesism...

again, you need to go back to basics. Your assumptions are false.

Evolution as a theory is not subjective, it is objective, i.e based upon facts. As are many other "theories"...

so all evolutionists are agreed on all details? well, first time I've heard that claim.......

[iranu]

If I was teaching God as the author of creation, I'd say: don't take my word for it, go examine the evidence for yourselves. After all, I'm human, with a flawed view of 'reality', and as such, can not pretend to know it all, or even to have an entirely consistent POV. We are all full of contradictions. All I can present to you is my intepretation.

I think everyone would agree that it's a fair statement to ask those that you are teaching to find out for themselves. My post (#17 paragraph 3rd from bottom) is relevant to this. I think that "finding out for themselves" (no matter what the material) can only be done when the original material is presented to a person/child at the level consistent with that child's development. I don't think this is happening in the video and unfortunately the adults don't seem to be too far past the children's development.

Iranu, just a quick question: are you really trying to find out what I think? or prove a point? or get me to go against other Christians? or.......? Your query sounds like you want me to make a stand, but am not sure of the motivation.

Yep. Point about the video or point about religion/Christianity and evolution? Sorry to answer a question with a question. From what you have said it seems to me that you accept evolution on the micro scale but not the macro. Go against other Christians? Well Christianity is a broad church and some accept all aspects of evolution and some don't and then there are those that accept some and disregard others. What ever camp you are in you will have a different opinion from some other Christians but I wouldn't construe that as going against them, after all Christians agree on the core beliefs of their religion. Surely one can interpret the bible and not have a conflict with macro evolution?

As for a stand no, I was simply asking your opinion and therefore interested in what your viewpoint is. My motivation is none other than interest and curiosity.

well, there must be something that differentiates a species enough for anyone who finds a new species to be able to classify that species as unique. Is it not ultimately genetics (genuine question)?

Well that's a real toughie, because there are hot debates about what is and what is not a species. For a layman, such as myself, I take the position that a species cannot mate successfully with another "organism" other than it's own but I would look into it further. I'm sure the answers are there.

I don't know who Ken Miller is - consider me ignorant - but I know many, many religious scientists. None of them have a problem / conflict with their POV, and I would consider myself in that camp.

I didn't until a few months ago but I think it was Agent who linked to a few of his YouTube vids. They are very good and worth watching hence why I brought him up.

I don't know who Ken Miller is to be honest, will look when I get home though.

Fair enough, but that said, MOST people who are religious, will be part of a religion. People who 'back' science, won't always have anything to actually do with it, was my point. Maybe badly put across.

Well, I'd imagine that a relgious scientist must work in fields a long way from 'evolution' and that side of things.

NP - a youtube search will find him and the first vid will most likely be him pwning (mmn don't use that phrase often) creationist. Be careful with labelling all religious people as believing in God or creationism. The religious are as diverse as athiests.

[j1979]

picture by Joseph Wright of Derby ("An Experiment on a Bird in the Air Pump", 1768).


Robert Boyle, 1660:
The vacuum kills.

Back when the church denied the presence of oxygen!

Thank god () most of use have reached our own personal Enlightenment. Cant wait untill the rest catch up and stop living in the medieval age. At least we dont live in a country with Sharia Law that has no hope of ever reaching the Enlightenment Age.

[j1979]

....

[fuddam]

fuddam

Can I ask you about something about christianity and bible interpretations?

Psalm 93:1 says "earth is set firmly in place and cannot be moved"

There was a big issue about this when Galileo disputed the then view of earth (i.e. earth doesn't move. Sun moves - rather than the other way around (as is the case now)).

Obviously we now know earth is round. We also know that people now argue that the bible do say the earth is round (e.g. Isaiah 40:22).

Q is how do we now know what is interpretated by a current christian is the correct interpretation of the bible?

E.g.
topics like
gays (Leviticus 18:22)
marriage "yoke" between a non-christian or christian (Corinthians 6:14)

good question, good question. well, not a simple answer. As I said, one has to read verses within context, first of all, both in terms of the scripture (chapter, book, testament etc) and within history. For example, one might say the Bible says to turn the other cheek, but also says an eye for an eye. If one has the 'big picture' then it is much easier to understand the particular verses. If one considers the Bible to be authored by a loving father, and a just one, then if we understand something to be contradicting such a view, it surely needs deeper examination.

Further, if one truly believes God is speaking in any manner, one should assemble a few strong Christians together as counselors and ask their opinion. The Bible says “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” (Prov. 12:15) and “A wise man is strong, And a man of knowledge increases power. For by wise guidance you will wage war, And in abundance of counselors there is victory.” (Prov. 24:5-6)

so, for the yoking: God does not want one to be yoked to an unbeliever, because it is not in the best interests of either person to be committed to someone who doesn't share one's essential beliefs / understandings of life. To be extreme, imagine a Christian falling in love with a satanist. Clearly something has to be resolved before they can get married.

gays? well, a hot topic. Best answer I can give is that God looks at the heart, not the actions. He loves all people equally, regardless of what they do / have done. And I truly believe that the complimentary nature of man and woman is what God sees as forming the ideal relationship.
And what about transexuals, bisexuals, hermaphrodites, etc? What about incest? Why is it wrong? Is that simply a cultural aversion or is it 'objectively' wrong? Tricky stuff, but there be God-given answers.

By the way, once one appreciates that the Old Testament laws were for the Hebrews and the New Testament was written for all mankind, it becomes easier to discern what is pertinent to oneself.

[fuddam]

Well that's a real toughie, because there are hot debates about what is and what is not a species. For a layman, such as myself, I take the position that a species cannot mate successfully with another "organism" other than it's own but I would look into it further. I'm sure the answers are there.

a donkey? or what about zebras and horses? that one has been done before....

[fuddam]

At least we dont live in a country with Sharia Law that has no hope of ever reaching the Enlightenment Age.

A distinct possiblity. quite distinct. I know some of the senior people advising the govt / nato on islamic terrorism, and it's on the books. But you can't quote me on that -

[usxhe190]

fuddam

but what happens if those few strong christians are wrong like those influential people who thought Galileo was wrong?

i know it is not a simple answer but the problem is, there are some things in this life that is currently restricted because of the interpretation of the bible (two biggest examples I can think of are gays and stem cell research) - how do they know it is the correct interpretation and they (politicans who have the power) are following the way of the bible?? it really is a gut feeling i think...

[Koolpc]

Your faith means nothing. I can have faith that the rain is simply Gods tears. It doesn't mean they are. Faith, as you seem utterly unable to grasp, changes nothing.

Faith means nothing to you. You can say it means nothing as you don't understand my 'Faith'. How do you know that faith doesn't change anything? Having faith in someone or yourself for that matter can have awesome results!

You know the wind is there because it can be felt, heard, its effects can be seen, its origin can be explained. You do not need faith to believe in the wind.

Talking about the wind is an example. When you have faith in god you don't need proof that he is there / here.

As for the ignorant and lazy cop out - 'science needs to proove things I'm just a wooly headed God botherer dat pruuf stuff means nothing to me praise the lord its a miracle be-jesus' stuff, if that is how you want to live your life, so be it.

Science is a discipline that is here to prove a lot of things. That is a fact. I don't need science to tell me that god is all around etc. Only someone as child-minded as you would say "wooly headed God botherer". Why come out with such a stupid comment?

Problem is, with the complete absence of proof, reason, logic, or even sanity, your faith is blind.

What a narrow minded statement! You don't seem to understand that being a Christian, a beliver in god, i don't need any proof, reason or logic etc. That is what faith is. It is believing without seeing. Like the blind man with his guide dog. He can't see him but he has faith in him taking around places without him getting injured. I don't need any scientific experiment to be done to prove that god is around. Why should i?

Also, there are many other religions, and many other Gods, and all those people worshiping these Gods have faith as well. Do you also have faith that all non-Christian Gods do no exist?

That is not a question. My faith has nothing to do with what other people believe.

If so this faith thing is well handy. It allows you to stick your head, as well as reasoned argument, right up your arse.

Well, looks like you have had your head up your backside since you were born considering all the BS you come out with!! lol

[Nickg]

where do you get that from? I CAN say it and do. He is God and yet He is distinct from God. He is both the son of God and is God. The mystery of the trinity is just that. No, not a nonsensical statement - am just admitting that I don't pretend to understand all the details. I know ENOUGH. .

Okay, lets look at this objectively, i hope you are sitting down.

I purport that it is ONLY your frame of reference Being a Christian that lets u believe that a, Jesus was the Son of God, and b, that he was God (in some way). Unfortunately, for you, It does no way describe this, either in any erstwhile terms , nor does this assertion get qualified in ANY way in the Bible. it is merely subjective thinking that allows one to fall into the belief that jesus was infact God.

When you consider that it was indeed a man made Council of Nicea (link First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) who decreed this, and not the bible which had been written years before, you have to question where the Christian religion actually got this idea from.

The majority of the world's population does NOT believe that jesus is God, the Islamic faith tells us that Jesus performed miracles by the Will of God, not because he was God (in one way or another). Is the Koran a more reputable source than the Bible? it was not re-written, translated, or passed down as spoken stories - it was, and IS? the word of God. (if you believe in Islam)

So in reality Fuddam, it is only a subjective Christian frame of reference that allows you to purport such things as fact, when many others looking at the evidence objectively would have to agree that there is Zero proof to actually back up your notion, at all.

again, not true. He raised people from the dead, he healed people. Very clear. No 2 ways about it.

If your frame of reference is the Bible, i assume then that you would take EVERYTHING, including the old testament to be entirely factual account of the history of this planet. Unfortunately there is no evidence, apart from anecdotal old testament evidence to actually make this out from. Once the old testament has been put into doubt, then the new testament must be as well. Ergo, he May have raised people from the dead, but the only indication we have of this is a book which may have been discredited as a factual work well before we even make it onto the new testament itself!

to get to the truth of the matter, one has to read the Bible in a number of ways, a principle one of which is to read a verse within its chapter, within its context, within its book, within its place in the Bible, within history. Problem is that a lot of people pick and mix as they like, excluding whatever they don't feel comfortable with. That's the bogus part. MOST importantly, one needs the help of the Holy Spirit to guide one, since it is not intended to be a purely human endeavour. Anyway, I assume this is falling on deaf ears, but c'est la vie.

again, you need to go back to basics. Your assumptions are false.

so all evolutionists are agreed on all details? well, first time I've heard that claim.......

you agree that even modern christians have begun to pick and choose the different aspects of the book, and religion of which they will follow. It is quite twee to assert that only those of a certain "kind" will be able to read the book properly. unfortunately this authoritarian attitude is often seen as a defence to those who show an air of skepticism, to assert that they can never grasp the book unless they give into the book. Which is quite true, if you read the book with an ounce of pragmatism, you would understand that not everything is literally verbatim.

but again, following on from an earlier point, you must agree that it is strange that over 2000 years we have "heard" little from God, despite his zealous activities before thew new testament was created?

[Stewart]

You don't seem to understand that being a Christian, a beliver in god, i don't need any proof, reason or logic etc.

Pr-her-hase The Lawd!

Say Hi to the talking snake for me when you get to heaven mate.

You big mad balloon.

[sammyc]

science (along with most things) should be taught, full stop, not taught as right, wrong, or according to the teacher's opinion.

scientific method, yes.

what constitutes truth: a different kettle of fish

that's what i mean, possibly poorly phrased... give kids the information, not whether it constitutes the truth, or is good, bad, or whatever. eg. science - teach what facts we know, as far as possible, & what theories we have; religion - teach that xy & z is what some people believe, & so on. No need to put a subjective interpretation onto the information, especially one that won't allow of any other.

[grayg1]

No one can prove a God doesn't exist and no can prove a God does exist. So flat out saying one or the other is true and everyone who thinks the other is an idiot, is in themeselves an idiot.

However I think the bible is likely a load of crap since it is so old and has been updated so many times, it is more than likely quite a few Chinese whispers have gone on.

I have no problem with anyone who believes anything, it is when people start preaching to others claiming it as facts that it starts to annoy me. Christians going around shouting I will forever burn in hell for not believing in Jesus and that they will sit by Gods side for all eternity, are nothing short of extremist fanatics in my eyes. Sure that may well be their belief, but to run around trying to use it as shock tactics to get people on board by scaring them that they won't have another life after this without being a Christian... it disgusts me.

Me personally I think religions are nothing more than lies made up by people to gain power as a group over others.

Also those who question God existance for not helping us out forget the most important preached rule of life. FREEWILL - God is not to tamper with this, we are to help ourselves which is where I think the importance of science comes in, what displays more freewill than the free thinkings of science?
Do I think God does or doesn't exist? I don't know, I can say it does but then I can ask "well how did God get there in the first place?". The ultimate questions really I suppose are "does anything you see from day to day really exsist?" and "why does anything exist at all?"

MATRIX! QUE THE SLOW MO!

[Koolpc]

Pr-her-hase The Lawd!

Say Hi to the talking snake for me when you get to heaven mate.

You big mad balloon.

Ah well, you have confirmed your age now. No point in trying to give you my view as you keep ridiculing me. Everyone knows how i feel so i will leave it at that. Cheers.

[santa claus]

SKEPTIC: At Christmas I hear about Santa all the time, too. That doesn't make him real.

Darn it. There I was boots off enjoying a cointreau, mince pie and an enthraling thread wonderfully debated (once the insults dropped) and then my very existence is doubted. Try tellin' that to Dancer and Prancer who I gave a thorough rogering to earlier on