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hehehe, Nick, you're on very shakey ground.
how so? Well, you jumped into that thread at the end, without (it seems) any knowledge of previous threads discussing similar issues (no fault, of course). In fact, you failed to read that thread itself, otherwise you'd have seen my post re Biblical accuracy.
your quote: I purport that it is ONLY your frame of reference Being a Christian that lets u believe that a, Jesus was the Son of God, and b, that he was God (in some way). Unfortunately, for you, It does no way describe this, either in any erstwhile terms , nor does this assertion get qualified in ANY way in the Bible. it is merely subjective thinking that allows one to fall into the belief that jesus was infact God.
When you consider that it was indeed a man made Council of Nicea (link First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) who decreed this, and not the bible which had been written years before, you have to question where the Christian religion actually got this idea from.
first off, Jesus as God:
The Bible clearly states that there is only one God. Deuteronomy 6:4 states, "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Isaiah 44:6 states, "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me." Clearly, these verses reveal that there is only one God. Yet, there are three separate persons in the Bible who are called God and have the characteristics only God can have. The Trinity is a difficult concept to grasp, because we are finite beings trying to explain an infinite God who is beyond our understanding.
Let's take a look at some verses that back up our doctrine of the Trinity. The Father is obviously called God as seen throughout the Bible. No one will argue that point. So there is one member of the Trinity, the Father. Jesus the Son, is a separate person but He is also called God. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Titus 2:13 says, "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." So here we see clearly, the Son is also called God.
The Holy Spirit is also a separate person, and He is also called God. First, let us understand, the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force. He is a person and has the characteristics of a person. He can be grieved (Eph. 4:30), He speaks (Acts 13:2), and He can be lied to (Act 5:3-4). In Acts 5:3-4 the Holy Spirit is called God, "But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?...You have not lied to men, but to God.'"
So we see clearly that there are three persons in the Bible, and all three are called God. Yet, we must remember, there is only one God according to the verses we looked at Deuteronomy 6:4 and Isaiah 44:6. Therefore, we come to the conclusion that the Trinity is made up of three separate persons who are the one true God.
Furthermore, right from Genesis. the use of the Hebrew for God is used in both singular and PLURAL:
The Hebrew word translated "God" is the word El or Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of El. The plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. Not only is the word for God usually used in the plural form, but several verses refer to God as "Us":
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:26)
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- (Genesis 3:22)
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Genesis 11:7)
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" (Isaiah 6:8)
An example of how the Hebrew word Elohim is used in the plural is that it is translated "gods" (referring to idols) 235 times in the Old Testament. It is exactly the same word that is translated "God," referring to the Almighty. An example is given below:
"I am the LORD your God [Elohim], who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods [Elohim] before Me. (Exodus 20:2-3)
and here for more food: The Son, Jesus Christ, is God
and here: Apologetics research resources on religious cults and sects - The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity
and: Another good example is the one offered by Frank Beckwith. He said "A plant is a being with no center of consciousness. A human is a being with one center of consciousness. God is a being with three centers of consciousness."
as far as the council of Nicea goes: Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original?
or to put it in shorter form:
"The facts of history demonstrate, however, that the New Testament was not formed hastily, nor was it formed by the councils. It was the product of centuries of development, and its official ratification came in response to the practical needs of the churches."
Developments that forced the Church to Establish a Canon: 1) Need for a Scripture to spell out the message of the Apostles, 2) Need to decide on what should be read in the churches, 3) Need for a true canon to answer heretical ones, 4) Need to establish authoritative truth to answer error, 5) Need to decide which of the many books claiming to be canonical were false, 6) Need to decide which books to die for when possession resulted in martyrdom (Vos, H. F., & Thomas Nelson Publishers. 1996. Exploring church history.)
or the Quran: you REALLY put your foot in it, there. Why? Well, I could show a ten part TV series I made on this very subject, but let me summarise: the earliest written version of the quran we have as over 1500 WRITTEN AMENDMENTS within the manuscripts itself! 1500! have a looksee here, for want of a source: Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an
your quote: If your frame of reference is the Bible, i assume then that you would take EVERYTHING, including the old testament to be entirely factual account of the history of this planet. Unfortunately there is no evidence, apart from anecdotal old testament evidence to actually make this out from. Once the old testament has been put into doubt, then the new testament must be as well. Ergo, he May have raised people from the dead, but the only indication we have of this is a book which may have been discredited as a factual work well before we even make it onto the new testament itself!
the OT is not written as a purely historical record. A simple example: it contains songs (psalms), wisdom (proverbs), sex education (song of songs), etc.
further, if you want to go to the British Museum with me (a famously secular institution), I will show you MANY examples of history that have not only been explained by scripture, or scripture corroborated by the exhibits, but even an exhibit where the museum refers to scripture as a source of explanation for the context!
lastly (since it is getting late):
your quote: "but again, following on from an earlier point, you must agree that it is strange that over 2000 years we have "heard" little from God, despite his zealous activities before thew new testament was created?"
again, where do you get that from, in the face if MILLIONS of Christians who claim constant and daily communication with Him? I will claim that myself, no matter how nutty you think I am. As far as miracles go, I have seen many happen before my eyes, and personally know people who have raised the dead. I have a close friend who ended up in the morgue, on the slab, but 'somehow' came alive again - you'll claim she was only sleeping / in a coma etc, but that is your assertion, not based on any evidence. That is your position of faith.
ok, sleep calls. Peace.
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Originally Posted by fuddam
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