Masonic Brotherhoods

[schmunk]

hmmm... the classic 'if i don't see it, it don't exist' argument, compelling as it is, there IS evidence to suggest we're not alone, tons of the stuff....

Nope, that's not my argument. My argument is that there is compelling evidence to support the big bang theory and a VAST amount of evidence to support evolution theory. However, I have never seen any convincing evidence for a 'higher power'.

If you have any solid, repeatable, objective evidence for a 'supreme being' or 'higher power', I'd be interested in seeing it.

the people I've visited are solid, upstanding fellows who give tirelessly to charity and are, quite simply, just good blokes. I'll do anything for anyone, if it's of benefit to them (within reason) as i'm that sort of guy, I'm a firm believer in the idea of Karma and how everything positive has a negative opposite etc, being a member of the masons is part of my way of giving a little bit back.

All very good, if a little saccharine, but that's not values. What are the values that you consider the Masons to represent?

[schmunk]

Since we're already on the slippery slope of theological discussion, can I be the first to mention Nazis?

That's the sort of post that a Nazi would make...

[eshrules]

Nope, that's not my argument. My argument is that there is compelling evidence to support the big bang theory and a VAST amount of evidence to support evolution theory. However, I have never seen any convincing evidence for a 'higher power'.

If you have any solid, repeatable, objective evidence for a 'supreme being' or 'higher power', I'd be interested in seeing it.

I think you've mis-read my posts I don't beleive in a supreme 'being' as such, more that there is something out there, greater than myself.... hence why i said, i'm not sure what, but I'm sure there is....

I studied physics at college, so I'm all to aware of the big bang and the evolution theories, I can't for one minute question that, what I'm saying is, as we stand, we're but a spec in what is a massive universe. Thinking about it logically, all our scientific theories explain how 'we' got here, but what about the rest of the universe, all the bits that remain unexplored? so many questions, but so few answers... and that's what I hold a firm belief in, there is definitley something more out there than us....

All very good, if a little saccharine, but that's not values. What are the values that you consider the Masons to represent?

saccharine? why?

anyway... the main values I'm on about are the tolerance and understanding of others and the encouragment to be selfless.... other than that, I really don't have a clue what you're after...

[schmunk]

I think you've mis-read my posts I don't beleive in a supreme 'being' as such, more that there is something out there, greater than myself.... hence why i said, i'm not sure what, but I'm sure there is....

You might not want to mention that at your next lodge meeting...

The essential qualification for admission into and continuing membership is a belief in a Supreme Being.

The United Grand Lodge of England - What is Freemasonry

[Zak33]

When I was invited, I asked, repeatedly and delicately, for some indication of what it was that was on offer. The chap that invited me was a very good friend, and I trust him, his judgement, and his character and honesty entirely. But he was still evasive, and indicated he wasn't allowed to say much. So either there's some reason for that secrecy, in which case, I'm not interested in signing up blind. Or there isn't a reason for it, in which case, it's puerile and juvenile, with a "secret society" image for no reason other than mysticism and mystique. And in that event, I'm not interested either.

and THAT is my exact finding too. I've had more tickled palm handshakes than I care to mention, and I politely ignore them all. The conversations I've had in context to this, was exactly as per Saracen's experience. Nothing is shared without blind faith that you join up.

And to anyone who thinks that all Masons are equal...perrr----leeeeeze. If that were the case then I'd just join, find out, and leggit and slurr the lot of you. Which is not possible because you DONT get to know what's going on (if anything--back to Saracens points) until you're RIGHT IN. Which is years or decades later.

Dead end

[Zak33]

And do you know the secret handshake?)

I do...the palm of my hand bears the scarred tissue from the constant finger wiggling that goes on when a Mason is trying to get a better deal on a car and is trying to ascertain if you're a Lodger and he tucks his ring finger into the palm of your handshake and grates your skin off.

[eshrules]

You might not want to mention that at your next lodge meeting...



The United Grand Lodge of England - What is Freemasonry

you're quoting me completly out of context, what's the point in trying to have a mature discussion when you do that?

[eshrules]

I do...the palm of my hand bears the scarred tissue from the constant finger wiggling that goes on when a Mason is trying to get a better deal on a car and is trying to ascertain if you're a Lodger and he tucks his ring finger into the palm of your handshake and grates your skin off.

LOL

as much as that made me laugh, the 'secret handshake' has nothing to do with tickling the palm of your hand

[pollaxe]

I do...the palm of my hand bears the scarred tissue from the constant finger wiggling that goes on when a Mason is trying to get a better deal on a car and is trying to ascertain if you're a Lodger and he tucks his ring finger into the palm of your handshake and grates your skin off.

A Mason buying a car off Zak is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman...

[SiM]

Freeze in the name of the law:


Click the picture. Are those secret handshakes correct?

[pollaxe]

Some are at least accurate (knowing bits and pieces as a non-Mason) however the site has this: "Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and other modern day pagan religions, worship demons, rather than the God of the Bible. We can know this because anyone who rejects Jesus Christ, rejects God."

So I decided to stop reading it.

[schmunk]

you're quoting me completly out of context, what's the point in trying to have a mature discussion when you do that?

How am I quoting you out of context? You said "I don't beleive in a supreme 'being' as such", and according to the presiding body for Freemasons in England, the overarching tenet of Freemasonry is "belief in a supreme being". Perhaps you ought to reevaluate your commitment?

[fuddam]

Some are at least accurate (knowing bits and pieces as a non-Mason) however the site has this: "Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and other modern day pagan religions, worship demons, rather than the God of the Bible. We can know this because anyone who rejects Jesus Christ, rejects God."

So I decided to stop reading it.

well, to be quite frank, freemasonry and Christianity are NOT compatible at all. If you're a Christian, you have no business belonging to the masons, and better seek some serious counselling about how to be spiritually freed from it. In all seriousness.

And no, I don't mean a Christian in the sense of simply someone who goes to church - has to have a real relationship with Him. NOT trying to hijack this thread, btw, just wanted to clarify, for those on this thread who might be Christian and curious about masonry.

EDIT: ref Encyclopedia of Freemasonry by Albert G Mackey (Thirty-Second Degree Mason)

eg: "You have told us that your institution is a religious institution. We believe you, but we would ask one more question. Is your religion Christianity or is it not Christianity?" Freemasonry has answered this question. Mark carefully the answer on page 618 of the encyclopedia:
"THE RELIGION OF FREEMASONRY IS NOT CHRISTIANITY!"

eg: Masonry has a god - you cant have a religion without a god. And this god has a name. Over and over in the encyclopedia you meet with the initials "G.A.O.T.U." This is the god of Masonry. The initials stand for the name "Great Architect of the Universe." This is the god that Masons worship at their altar. This is the god to whom Masonic prayers are offered. Sometimes other names are applied to him, but according to Mackey, "G.A.O.T.U." is the technical Masonic name for him (pp 290, 310).

etc

[pollaxe]

As I understand it, Masons are expected to believe in a creator of some kind but they don't have to be more specific than that. Also, the GAOTU is a figurehead/catch all for God anyway. I'm not involved with it so I can't comment much more than that but the family member I do know is a Mason is not religious and unless I've greatly misjudged his character I don't think he'd be up for anything particularly 'God-bothering' if you know what I mean.

Fuddam, with all due respect, I daresay more mainstream christians (that's a small c, deliberately btw) are not as devout or contemplative about such matters as you. For example, I've been Christened (and later Confirmed) technically I'm a Christian (though maybe not by your definition.) However, whilst I have great admiration for the core message of Christ's teachings, I can't help but feel the Church has got in the way nor do I trust much that is written. Hence I'm an agnostic and I suspect a great majority of the Masons are much the same.

Clearly that site has an axe to grind and a strong religious agenda too so, as with all arguments, take whatever both sides say with a pinch of salt and look to the middle ground. Personally whenever I see a site that's telling me the majority of other beliefs are worshipping demons then it strikes me as an intellectual dead end hence I wasn't going to read any more and I would treat anything they say with great caution. YMMV, of course.

[fuddam]

I would assume most Masons either don't know or don't care about any spiritual aspect to freemasonry. That doesn't mean it lacks a spiritual dimension.

my own experience with the subject has led me to walk a very careful distance away from it. It's not benign or neutral, no matter how good-willed the practitioners on the ground.

If one googles "freemasonry christianity", there are a few zillion hits on the subject and esp the incompatibilities, for those who are curious.

anyway, that's my 2c. Take it or leave it.

[kalniel]

You're actually agreeing with each other, or at least, not argueing against each other.

Fuddam is saying that a practising Christian won't be involved with Masons regardless of the practical extent of Masons' spirtuality.
Pollaxe is saying that there are people who think of themselves as either Christian or Mason that are non-practising.

Those two statements aren't mutually exclusive